I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.
On May 30 2010 02:47 InTheFade wrote: It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote: I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me. Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.
Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.
Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.
These are two games I can recall off the top of my head, I'm sure he used it more though:
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote: I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me. Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?
I agree with you there, the build looked more like an old school extremely fast vessel to defend vs 3hat muta build rather than a variation of Fantasy's build which is more brilliant imo. I dont remember how Fantasy executed the build, but I recall both him and Canata and light using it on HBr, it focused on mass tanks while getting vessel, versus Flash's build which was extremely fast tech to defend vs 3hat muta, I recall Bratok using this build alot during the days of TSL 1 too.
Remember that the late game tech switch to tanks/vultures that Flash has used on several occasions was also pioneered by fantasy.
It's funny, because terran are switching it up so rapidly nowadays, and while Flash is the poster boy for this, it's fantasy who's still doing the experimenting.
pretty good post; flash does have the mechanics to pull off just about anything.
first game was a big mindgame; jaedong expected valks because a lot of zergs mass mutalisks on triathalon since the hatcheries are essentially islands. flash used the build much more effectively on a more appropriate map, and the timing of his push allowed him to secure map control despite not completely killing jaedong.
Flash pulling his scvs (and pretty much all of his expo ones) long before they were needed in game 3 was really smart. He knew Jaedong was going all in, so he knew he just had to live, and he wasn't going to lose that bunker no matter what.
At first I thought he was overreacting a bit- but I suppose this is why I always lose to stupid stuff like that.
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.
Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote: I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.
Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.
Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.
Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.
Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me. Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?
I agree with you there, the build looked more like an old school extremely fast vessel to defend vs 3hat muta build rather than a variation of Fantasy's build which is more brilliant imo. I dont remember how Fantasy executed the build, but I recall both him and Canata and light using it on HBr, it focused on mass tanks while getting vessel, versus Flash's build which was extremely fast tech to defend vs 3hat muta, I recall Bratok using this build alot during the days of TSL 1 too.
Agreed, and not to mention Fantasy is not only a player who used it alot but also the one who initially started anti muta, valk, build. (Well, boxer started in savior vs boxer superfight, but thats just Boxer being Boxer, millions years ahead of his own time)
On May 30 2010 02:47 InTheFade wrote: It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.
what
wtf...fantasy's builds are genius and innovative.... flash just took it to the next level because hes baller like that
On May 22 2010 22:44 niteReloaded wrote: Instead of smashing this kid, winning the golden mouse, gaining a shitload of confidence, then beating Jaedong next week and finally being recognized as bonjwa and the greatest SC player to ever walk this earth, he'll now start doubting and 'reinventing' himself which will lead to him losing 3-0 to jaedong where he'll try some stupid shit builds ala fantasy and FAIL. And then OGN and MBC will announce that there will be no more SC1 tournaments and flash will end up in a mad house and we can all kill ourselves.
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Fantasy has used the build from game 1 many times already. The most recent use of it was against Shine where he failed miserably, though.
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote: Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.
Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.
You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
Fantasy has used the build from game 1 many times already. The most recent use of it was against Shine where he failed miserably, though.
You are right, Fantasy has used build 1 a lot. But it dies to 2 hatch muta as it failed against Yarnc and Shine, but it also raped Hyvaa during Winner's League
I definetly disagree. Flash has been doing builds like game one since his game vs Yarnc on Collo. The "build one of everything" is not Fantasy's build.
Game 2 was Fantasy like
and game 3, the same could be said for Jaedong. He recently saw an Effort VOD where Flash use the same strategy. Doesn't mean if he won game 3 that it would be because of Effort.
I think to say Fantasy inspired Flash is shortsighted...
Guys, they've said numerous times that they were very close friends (FlaSh and Fantasy). They were in the same clan and lived in the same team house (not TOO sure about this one). So, it's possible that they shared build orders.
On May 30 2010 05:51 dekuschrub wrote: well flash and fantasy are friends
and fantasy predicted 3-0!
CURIOUS NO?
Fantasy had the most accurate predictions for both finals. First final he said JD would win and that Match Point wasn't as good for T as people thought. This final he said Flash wins and 3-0 is possible. Impressive stuff from Fantasy (now if only he can start playing better again).
I disagree with your post. In my opinion, games 1 and 2 (particularly game 1) were extremely EXTREMELY technical timing pushes (a la 6 factory timing push) that were designed to do a LOT of damage, if not end the game there. If flash didn't do a good amount of damage or at least come even (even if jaedong didn't go for a crazy zerg style), I think Flash would have lost easily. I won't go into it to much, but I don't see too much of a resemblance to fantasy's heavy harass, map control/dropship oriented gameplay whatsoever in those games. They more resembled just brilliant builds (if he was a little lucky in not getting 9 pooled on a map where there are tons of easily securable gas expos) with a very specific timing push designed to punish a greedy, late game oriented macro zerg style.
I think some of the writers will do an analysis of the match later but let me say something about set 1
Flash reverse build-order pwnt JD. Simple as that. He never really scouted JD and did not know he was doing a 2 hatch opening. So, since he went fast Vessel, he would have died like (lol) Fantasy in a game against Shine. 2hatch muta insta kills fast Vessel if no blunder occurs since irradiate upgrade never finishes in time for this, after it does vessels don't live long enough to get mana, and marine count is very low. Had JD made mutas that game he would have won easily imo. However, he did some kind of crazy zerg going straight into ultra-ling-defiler, only to get killed by the high vessel count. It was an innovative build, I don't think I have seen it before, skipping mutas to get super fast 4 gas with no units is really new to me. Not sure what this counters, it could be very map specific or a terrible terrible decision.
I'd like to hear opinions on one of Rekrul's comments:
Sure in TvZ you can play amazing but general TvZ/ZvT trends suggest that games are generally in zerg's hands to win or lose (obv v v hard vs flash lol).
To what extent is this true/false? Are there any good examples of this (eg. Terran plays perfectly but loses because of Zerg's play)? Would JD have won if both played their A game?
EPT
, which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
