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[spoiler] The MSL winner should really thank...

Blogs > Random_0
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1 2 Next All
Random_0
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1163 Posts
May 29 2010 17:22 GMT
#1
I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.

Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.

Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.

Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.

***
SuperArc
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Austria7781 Posts
May 29 2010 17:25 GMT
#2
I fully agree, Flash took fantasy's ideas and perfected them.
Snow - future of protoss! :) Nada = baller
mdb
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
Bulgaria4059 Posts
May 29 2010 17:26 GMT
#3
Absolutely agree. People (and mainly Jaedong) should remember how the last three games in the Batoo OSL finals were played.
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
May 29 2010 17:33 GMT
#4
Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.

Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.

You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66156 Posts
May 29 2010 17:34 GMT
#5
Well, it pays to have Fantasy as one of your butt buddies!
POGGERS
InTheFade
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1721 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 17:51:17
May 29 2010 17:47 GMT
#6
It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.
... Knowmsayin'?
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66156 Posts
May 29 2010 17:55 GMT
#7
On May 30 2010 02:47 InTheFade wrote:
It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.

what
POGGERS
awu25
Profile Joined April 2010
United States2003 Posts
May 29 2010 18:00 GMT
#8
Flash should be thanking blizzard for creating the units he used to win the game...
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
May 29 2010 18:13 GMT
#9
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote:
I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.

Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.

Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.

Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.

Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me.
Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Random_0
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
United States1163 Posts
May 29 2010 18:22 GMT
#10
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote:
Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.

Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.

You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.


Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.

Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.
samachking
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Bahrain4949 Posts
May 29 2010 18:31 GMT
#11
On May 30 2010 03:22 Random_0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote:
Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.

Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.

You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.


Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.

Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.


These are two games I can recall off the top of my head, I'm sure he used it more though:



On May 30 2010 03:13 KlaCkoN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote:
I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.

Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.

Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.

Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.

Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me.
Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?


I agree with you there, the build looked more like an old school extremely fast vessel to defend vs 3hat muta build rather than a variation of Fantasy's build which is more brilliant imo. I dont remember how Fantasy executed the build, but I recall both him and Canata and light using it on HBr, it focused on mass tanks while getting vessel, versus Flash's build which was extremely fast tech to defend vs 3hat muta, I recall Bratok using this build alot during the days of TSL 1 too.
"And then Earthlings discovered tools. Suddenly agreeing with friends could be a form of suicide or worse. But agreements went on, not for the sake of common sense, or decency, or self preservation, but for friendliness."
Emon_
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
3925 Posts
May 29 2010 18:32 GMT
#12
Fantasy's TvZ isn't anywhere near Flash's level. I guess since he's so stubborn with going mech Flash gets ideas from watching him play.
"I know that human beings and fish can coexist peacefully" -GWB ||
tree.hugger
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
May 29 2010 18:36 GMT
#13
Remember that the late game tech switch to tanks/vultures that (T)Flash has used on several occasions was also pioneered by (T)fantasy.

It's funny, because terran are switching it up so rapidly nowadays, and while Flash is the poster boy for this, it's fantasy who's still doing the experimenting.
ModeratorEffOrt, Snow, GuMiho, and Team Liquid
ArvickHero
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
10387 Posts
May 29 2010 18:37 GMT
#14
not sure where the fast vessel build originates from, but Midas uses it vs Savior before Nada did in the finals
Writerptrk
omninmo
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
2349 Posts
May 29 2010 18:37 GMT
#15
aw fuck. flash won? oh well. the circle was left uncomplete.
hyst.eric.al
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States2332 Posts
May 29 2010 18:57 GMT
#16
pretty good post; flash does have the mechanics to pull off just about anything.

first game was a big mindgame; jaedong expected valks because a lot of zergs mass mutalisks on triathalon since the hatcheries are essentially islands. flash used the build much more effectively on a more appropriate map, and the timing of his push allowed him to secure map control despite not completely killing jaedong.
Leta , BeSt, Calm fan forever! 김정우, I am sorry I ever lost faith in you.
HeadhunteR
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Argentina1258 Posts
May 29 2010 19:02 GMT
#17
fantasy builds = BOXER plus Oov designed builds.. soo flash is the real heir of the bonwjas..
in The Kong line forever
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-29 19:12:36
May 29 2010 19:12 GMT
#18
Flash pulling his scvs (and pretty much all of his expo ones) long before they were needed in game 3 was really smart. He knew Jaedong was going all in, so he knew he just had to live, and he wasn't going to lose that bunker no matter what.

At first I thought he was overreacting a bit- but I suppose this is why I always lose to stupid stuff like that.
EntertainMe
Profile Blog Joined April 2004
864 Posts
May 29 2010 19:17 GMT
#19
On May 30 2010 03:31 samachking wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 03:22 Random_0 wrote:
On May 30 2010 02:33 samachking wrote:
Game 1's build wasnt the same build fantasy uses. Flash's build was a more SK Terran oriented strategy with the same thought, he skipped the wraith/valk, and he skipped on tanks/mines which makes the build way riskier. The build was also oriented towards SK terran rather than the build which fantasy used, which was a 8 tank 2 MnM group push before hive with 1 vessel, whileas Flash went for a standard SK terran push with faster vessels and upgrades to thwart mutas.

Game 3, that vulture that saw the hydras incoming was what saved flash imo, otherwise Flash would have no idea if JD went for mutas or hydras, he had 1 hydra on hold with 6 lings to deny vulture scouting.

You give fantasy credit but ignore game 2 , which I find hillarious, because that build is a fantasy trademark, the valkinoic 2 group MnM push which zergs never seem to be able to deal with if they open mutas.


Do you remember any games where Fantasy did this? I thought Flash's game 2 was highly original.

Maybe I don't remember Fantasy being this dominating because Flash controlled his units perfectly.


These are two games I can recall off the top of my head, I'm sure he used it more though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEvu1iiYm5o&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kx1p764bFrQ&feature=player_embedded

Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 03:13 KlaCkoN wrote:
On May 30 2010 02:22 Random_0 wrote:
I didn't see anyone mention the real person Flash owes for his victory - Fantasy.

Look, in game 1, Flash did Fantasy's patented "build 1 of everything behind a wall-in" build. Jaedong has seen this before, has annihilated Fantasy doing the same build. It's just that Flash executed it a lot better, with better timing, and was able to blow up Jaedong's natural with his pushes.

Similarly, game 3 resembled very closely the recent Proleague Ace Match between Fantasy and Jaedong. In that game, Jaedong saw Fantasy go fast expand on Match Point. He went all-in 3 hatch hydra, and rolled him. Flash knew that Jaedong had played this game, and, instead of relying on crummy spider mines to delay the hydra push, researched siege mode. It finished just in time. Moreover, Flash doesn't take chances against the all-in. He had like 10 SCVs repairing where Fantasy tries to skimp and repair with 3. Combined with the siege mode, he just held off Jaedong, and won the game.

Anyways, my point is: some of the games very closely resembled Jaedong's recent matches with fantasy. Flash was able to predict Jaedong's reaction based on those games, and executed a little bit better to win.

Um the first game felt more like a throwback to Nada's build vs savior in the first game of the OSL finals to me.
Doesn't fantasy's build generally involve a vulture and a wraith as well? And with the factory before the cc?


I agree with you there, the build looked more like an old school extremely fast vessel to defend vs 3hat muta build rather than a variation of Fantasy's build which is more brilliant imo. I dont remember how Fantasy executed the build, but I recall both him and Canata and light using it on HBr, it focused on mass tanks while getting vessel, versus Flash's build which was extremely fast tech to defend vs 3hat muta, I recall Bratok using this build alot during the days of TSL 1 too.


Agreed, and not to mention Fantasy is not only a player who used it alot but also the one who initially started anti muta, valk, build. (Well, boxer started in savior vs boxer superfight, but thats just Boxer being Boxer, millions years ahead of his own time)
shinjin
Profile Joined January 2010
United States398 Posts
May 29 2010 19:52 GMT
#20
On May 30 2010 02:55 konadora wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2010 02:47 InTheFade wrote:
It's not like fantasy is the first guy that ever walled off in TvZ. Additionally, fantasy's builds are horrible, and usually when Flash copied them, he got rolled. Last night, he combined the worst of two worlds: fantasy's "wall/1-of-everything/insta-mech" and 14cc; and it obliterated Jaedong. So maybe Flash should thank himself.

what


wtf...fantasy's builds are genius and innovative....
flash just took it to the next level because hes baller like that
give it one more try because the best things in life dont come free.
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