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This thread was promptly closed and dismissed as more Blizzard-bashing. It should be noted that some of the terms that Blizzard claims a right to are illegal (or a liberal misinterpretation of copyright law). That is, they cannot deprive you of a purchased service under certain circumstances:
In particular:
2Bcd are unilateral claims regarding real world transactions. These transactions are legal just about everywhere in the world, but MMO companies are trying to fabricate a common law precedent that this is unlawful.
2D claims that you don't own your RAM.
2E claims that you don't own your hard drive.
2F claims that you cannot use their software for alternative purposes.
2G claims that you don't own your NIC.
The above are invalid claims provided you do not infringe upon 2H, which is a valid claim. As long as you're not tampering with their server or disrupting gameplay, you haven't done anything wrong.
Rich's UDP-blocker for example, is a violation of 2G and Blizzard claims they have the right to revoke your account for such "tampering."
This is only a small issue in the larger battle for software rights, but Blizzard is already way out of bounds and should be reprimanded for their arrogance.
  
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This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement.
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I'm with you, but I feel like I'm missing something. I don't have a very good grasp on anything to do with law, but Blizzard seems like too big of a company to have lawyers that would overlook something like this. You do make a very interesting point, though. I'd definitely like to see some more explanation on Blizzard's part
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On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement.
You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid.
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On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement.
Even so Blizzard cant go out of bounds, like seems to be the case of some of the claims the OP stated
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If you buy their game, you need to agree to their terms. Otherwise, don't buy it. Simple.
Blizzard isn't claiming that you can't modify files on your hard drive if you buy their game. They're claiming that you can't modify their game if you agree to their terms of use. You know that agreement you say you read and understand when you install the game.
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On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid.
Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too?
Brb, going to "buy" some real estate.
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On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid.
I'm pretty damned sure the law takes precedence over a ToS.
And I'm sure Blizzard are just covering their asses, and they aren't out to hurt you.
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On May 28 2010 09:38 hejakev wrote:
I'm with you, but I feel like I'm missing something. I don't have a very good grasp on anything to do with law, but Blizzard seems like too big of a company to have lawyers that would overlook something like this. You do make a very interesting point, though. I'd definitely like to see some more explanation on Blizzard's part
It's an exaggeration, a stretch, an attempt to forge a common understanding in what is a gray area of the law.
Only because game companies are big can they make presumptuous statements like this and convince a court that they're in the right. It is, in fact, an ongoing legal debate just waiting for another lawsuit.
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Its amazing how alarmist people are over this. blizzard is just protecting its rights and controlling liability. You cannot look at this literally, these are written for lawyers by lawyers.
Yes, blizzard is reserving the right to stop tournaments. Does this mean they are stopping tournaments? no.
Blizzard like most companies more likely than not does a legal risk management. If lets say, you wanted to run a tournament called: the "blizzard is a bunch of nazi fascists and i hope they die" 24 person invitational, they have the ability to shut it down.
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On May 28 2010 09:25 mmp wrote:
This thread should be promptly closed and dismissed as more Blizzard-bashing. It should be noted that this a liberal misinterpretation of terms that Blizzard claims.
Look I can take what you said and spin it how I want, just like you did to the ToS.
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On May 28 2010 09:41 Conquest101 wrote:
If you buy their game, you need to agree to their terms. Otherwise, don't buy it. Simple.
Blizzard isn't claiming that you can't modify files on your hard drive if you buy their game. They're claiming that you can't modify their game if you agree to their terms of use. You know that agreement you say you read and understand when you install the game.
You purchased those bits on your hard drive, you can do what you want with them.
You do not forfeit this right unless you knowingly agree to do so, but this cannot be verified unless licenses make a more opaque statement of what they're claiming. Until then, people will continue to hastily click "Accept." Alternatively, you would need some witness or evidence that it was understood.
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On May 28 2010 09:42 Wohmfg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. I'm pretty damned sure the law takes precedence over a ToS.
If people don't read agreements, then they shouldn't agree to them. The agreement is not in any way deliberately misleading.
The law does take precedent over ToS, but just because it's illegal for someone to steal something from me doesn't mean that if I agree to sell something to someone they're stealing from me when they take it. We agreed to do it, that's why it's called an agreement. In this case, Blizzard says you can use our service if you do these things. Take it or leave it. If you think it's a bad deal, leave it.
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On May 28 2010 09:46 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:41 Conquest101 wrote:
If you buy their game, you need to agree to their terms. Otherwise, don't buy it. Simple.
Blizzard isn't claiming that you can't modify files on your hard drive if you buy their game. They're claiming that you can't modify their game if you agree to their terms of use. You know that agreement you say you read and understand when you install the game. You purchased those bits on your hard drive, you can do what you want with them.
Haha this has to be a troll.
User was warned for this post
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On May 28 2010 09:46 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:41 Conquest101 wrote:
If you buy their game, you need to agree to their terms. Otherwise, don't buy it. Simple.
Blizzard isn't claiming that you can't modify files on your hard drive if you buy their game. They're claiming that you can't modify their game if you agree to their terms of use. You know that agreement you say you read and understand when you install the game. You purchased those bits on your hard drive, you can do what you want with them. You do not forfeit this right unless you knowingly agree to do so, but this cannot be verified unless licenses make a more opaque statement of what they're claiming. Until then, people will continue to hastily click "Accept." Alternatively, you would need some witness or evidence that it was understood.
This is Battle.Net terms of use. That means that you can modify the bits on your hard drive any way you want. You just won't be able to use Battle.Net at Blizzard's discretion.
I think you mean a more transparent statement of claims, but it's right there for you to read. What part of this agreement do you find difficult to understand?
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On May 28 2010 09:48 ramen- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:42 Wohmfg wrote:On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. I'm pretty damned sure the law takes precedence over a ToS. If people don't read agreements, then they shouldn't agree to them. The agreement is not in any way deliberately misleading. The law does take precedent over ToS, but just because it's illegal for someone to steal something from me doesn't mean that if I agree to sell something to someone they're stealing from me when they take it. We agreed to do it, that's why it's called an agreement. In this case, Blizzard says you can use our service if you do these things. Take it or leave it. If you think it's a bad deal, leave it.
I don't really understand what you just wrote but I think we agree. I was just pointing out that Blizzard can't break the law just because someone clicks "accept" on a ToS.
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On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate.
You know that joke is actually more aligned to "invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too" then i think you initially meant making it frankly hilarious to me.
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On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate.
Yes, exactly because no one reads the terms for a computer game versus a license for more important goods and services. There is no means of verifying that a user agreed to the terms as they are presented - therefore Blizzard's claims constitute "fine print."
If Blizzard just said they could ban users for completely arbitrary reasons (such as race, religion, politics) and it was in the ToS, it would still be an illegal overreach of your civil liberties to enjoy a good or service - precisely because a wide audience of people who may be unfairly harmed.
In general, you have a right to use your computer hardware as you like (provided you harm no one else) and it takes far more sophisticated legal statements than this to invalidate your property rights.
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On May 28 2010 09:51 Mooga wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:46 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:41 Conquest101 wrote:
If you buy their game, you need to agree to their terms. Otherwise, don't buy it. Simple.
Blizzard isn't claiming that you can't modify files on your hard drive if you buy their game. They're claiming that you can't modify their game if you agree to their terms of use. You know that agreement you say you read and understand when you install the game. You purchased those bits on your hard drive, you can do what you want with them. Haha this has to be a troll.
He just being stupid, So if i pirated software becuase i bought my HDD the pirated software is now mine? Just using his logic.
All that agreement says is don't make 3rd party shit that injects into sc2 for any reason or hack sc2 memory locations/hdd partitions.
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On May 28 2010 09:53 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate. Yes, exactly because no one reads the terms for a computer game versus a license for more important goods and services. There is no means of verifying that a user agreed to the terms as they are presented - therefore Blizzard's claims constitute "fine print." If Blizzard just said they could ban users for completely arbitrary reasons (such as race, religion, politics) and it was in the ToS, it would still be an illegal overreach of your civil liberties to enjoy a good or service - precisely because a wide audience of people who may be harmed wouldn't know what they were getting into.
Nope, it's a private service they can do what they want, discrimination for no reason is frankly only auto protected to the elderly obviously you never heard of the boyscouts, You obviously don't know about gym memberships or cell phone contracts either.
"Your defense is i am an idiot, not my fault, blizz is mean took advant(fuck that word is soo long) me by sur prize! Hell me please"
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I don't see a problem with any of the terms except for 2G, in which case ICCUP-type servers would not be allowed.
The other terms are just there to prevent hacks/bots.
Bottom line: you accepted the terms when you clicked agree to install the games; if you don't agree with the terms, well, the clients wouldn't even install.
Simple as that.
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On May 28 2010 09:53 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate. Yes, exactly because no one reads the terms for a computer game versus a license for more important goods and services. There is no means of verifying that a user agreed to the terms as they are presented - therefore Blizzard's claims constitute "fine print." If Blizzard just said they could ban users for completely arbitrary reasons (such as race, religion, politics) and it was in the ToS, it would still be an illegal overreach of your civil liberties to enjoy a good or service - precisely because a wide audience of people who may be harmed wouldn't know what they were getting into. In general, you have a right to use your computer hardware as you like (provided you harm no one else) and it takes far more sophisticated legal statements than this to invalidate your property rights.
Civil liberties is frankly an over reach if you're going to argue this that is not the way to go.
Property rights/consumer rights is much easier rout to argue that what they are doing is wrong.
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On May 28 2010 09:57 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:53 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate. Yes, exactly because no one reads the terms for a computer game versus a license for more important goods and services. There is no means of verifying that a user agreed to the terms as they are presented - therefore Blizzard's claims constitute "fine print." If Blizzard just said they could ban users for completely arbitrary reasons (such as race, religion, politics) and it was in the ToS, it would still be an illegal overreach of your civil liberties to enjoy a good or service - precisely because a wide audience of people who may be harmed wouldn't know what they were getting into. Nope, it's a private service they can do what they want, discrimination for no reason is frankly only auto protected to the elderly obviously you never heard of the boyscouts, You obviously don't know about gym memberships or cell phone contracts either. "Your defense is i am an idiot, not my fault, blizz is mean took advant(fuck that word is soo long) me by sur prize! Hell me please"
You're very wrong and making a fool of yourself, please stop.
In the U.S., private services offered to the public are subject to the law - they cannot act with impunity or refuse service for reasons protected by the law. The Civil Rights Act of 1964 gives narrow exceptions for non-profits, religious groups, and businesses that have a true conflicts of interest or normal operation.
Property rights were established and well-understood long before civil rights, so this shouldn't be a contentious point.
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On May 28 2010 09:59 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:53 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate. Yes, exactly because no one reads the terms for a computer game versus a license for more important goods and services. There is no means of verifying that a user agreed to the terms as they are presented - therefore Blizzard's claims constitute "fine print." If Blizzard just said they could ban users for completely arbitrary reasons (such as race, religion, politics) and it was in the ToS, it would still be an illegal overreach of your civil liberties to enjoy a good or service - precisely because a wide audience of people who may be harmed wouldn't know what they were getting into. In general, you have a right to use your computer hardware as you like (provided you harm no one else) and it takes far more sophisticated legal statements than this to invalidate your property rights. Civil liberties is frankly an over reach if you're going to argue this that is not the way to go. Property rights/consumer rights is much easier rout to argue that what they are doing is wrong.
I'll put it in simple words.
You can use your computer any way you like provided you don't break the law.
Blizzard cannot deny you service because you like to use your computer in ways that don't break the law. You would have to knowingly (and certifiably) agree to this for Blizzard to deny you service.
Done.
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I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. 
Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use.
Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS.
Warden
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mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to.
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On May 28 2010 10:13 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:59 semantics wrote:On May 28 2010 09:53 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate. Yes, exactly because no one reads the terms for a computer game versus a license for more important goods and services. There is no means of verifying that a user agreed to the terms as they are presented - therefore Blizzard's claims constitute "fine print." If Blizzard just said they could ban users for completely arbitrary reasons (such as race, religion, politics) and it was in the ToS, it would still be an illegal overreach of your civil liberties to enjoy a good or service - precisely because a wide audience of people who may be harmed wouldn't know what they were getting into. In general, you have a right to use your computer hardware as you like (provided you harm no one else) and it takes far more sophisticated legal statements than this to invalidate your property rights. Civil liberties is frankly an over reach if you're going to argue this that is not the way to go. Property rights/consumer rights is much easier rout to argue that what they are doing is wrong. I'll put it in simple words. You can use your computer any way you like provided you don't break the law. Blizzard cannot deny you service because you like to use your computer in ways that don't break the law. You would have to knowingly (and certifiably) agree to this for Blizzard to deny you service. Done.
Do we not agree to this every time we sign into Bnet 2.0?
I don't like the terms much but its their product and service and they have the right to deny it to anyone they want.
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On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden
It's not malicious software I'm defending. Warden is illegal, by the way.
On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to.
So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc?
And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...?
You forfeit all of this?
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On May 28 2010 09:45 Destro wrote:
Yes, blizzard is reserving the right to stop tournaments. Does this mean they are stopping tournaments? no.
I agree with this guy. Its like in America: do we have the right to own guns? Yes.
Does that mean we all have them? No.
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I don't know why people are thinking these are the ToS for SC2, this is for the battle.net 2.0 platform.
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On May 28 2010 10:28 Kralic wrote:
I don't know why people are thinking these are the ToS for SC2, this is for the battle.net 2.0 platform.
You play SC2 on BNet. The ToS apply to "the Game," whatever Blizzard game you may be playing.
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On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this?
YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game.
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On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game.
So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked?
How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you?
You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops.
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The only one I don't see why it's not reasonable is 2D. And that's mainly because I'm not sure what it's talking about.
F and G suck for players but are completely within Blizzard's rights to specify as far as I can tell.
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On May 28 2010 10:46 Musoeun wrote:
The only one I don't see why it's not reasonable is 2D. And that's mainly because I'm not sure what it's talking about.
F and G suck for players but are completely within Blizzard's rights to specify as far as I can tell.
These aren't opinions. It's about legal interpretation.
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On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops.
If Blizzard wanted to revoke their accounts, they would absolutely be within their rights. Does it suck? Yes. Is it in any way illegal? No. How is that so hard to understand?
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I thought this thread was going to contain a legal argument since the title is "Blizzard's terms are illegal." However, this quote destroyed that hope.
On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid.
This is incorrect by Canadian law. You can't claim that you were unaware after accepting a terms of use agreement because it counts as reasonable notice. I'm pretty sure American contract law is the same in this regard.
If you're trying to make an argument as to how regulation prevents some of these contract terms, make it. Don't make extreme claims such as, "this says you don't own your RAM" without quoting some regulation. At a glance, it looks fine to me.
Edit: Seriously, this is a basic standard form offer. I don't know why you're making such strong claims without support.
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On May 28 2010 10:32 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:28 Kralic wrote:
I don't know why people are thinking these are the ToS for SC2, this is for the battle.net 2.0 platform. You play only SC2 on BNet because of the NO LAN thing. The ToS apply to "the Game," whatever Blizzard game you may be playing.
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On May 28 2010 10:54 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops. If Blizzard wanted to revoke their accounts, they would absolutely be within their rights. Does it suck? Yes. Is it in any way illegal? No. How is that so hard to understand?
Show me a legal (U.S.) ruling that backs the right of commercial software to restrict access to computer memory.
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On May 28 2010 10:56 Durak wrote:I thought this thread was going to contain a legal argument since the title is "Blizzard's terms are illegal." However, this quote destroyed that hope. Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. This is incorrect by Canadian law. You can't claim that you were unaware after accepting a terms of use agreement because it counts as reasonable notice. I'm pretty sure American contract law is the same in this regard. If you're trying to make an argument as to how regulation prevents some of these contract terms, make it. Don't make extreme claims such as, "this says you don't own your RAM" without quoting some regulation. At a glance, it looks fine to me. Edit: Seriously, this is a basic standard form offer. I don't know why you're making such strong claims without support.
I agree that the Canadian interpretation makes sense - but when fine print oversteps what it has a reasonable right to claim (in this case property rights over your computer hardware), then you can take it to court (in the U.S. anyway).
Your bias is backwards. It's a basic and standard form in that companies often say things that have zero legal backing. No one cares to bring these things to court because of the cost - when was the last time you saw a class action lawsuit over a video game?
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On May 28 2010 10:59 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:54 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops. If Blizzard wanted to revoke their accounts, they would absolutely be within their rights. Does it suck? Yes. Is it in any way illegal? No. How is that so hard to understand? Show me a legal (U.S.) ruling that backs the right of commercial software to restrict access to computer memory.
"provided, however, that Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces;"
If R1ch's program is in no way malicious, I don't see them not allowing it. This basically states "if something is good, we will allow it"
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On May 28 2010 11:07 seppolevne wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:59 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:54 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops. If Blizzard wanted to revoke their accounts, they would absolutely be within their rights. Does it suck? Yes. Is it in any way illegal? No. How is that so hard to understand? Show me a legal (U.S.) ruling that backs the right of commercial software to restrict access to computer memory. "provided, however, that Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces;" If R1ch's program is in no way malicious, I don't see them not allowing it. This basically states "if something is good, we will allow it"
It's not their right to approve or disapprove what else is running on your computer.
Again, it's easy to side with the benevolent dictator, but what if a program is deemed to give an "unfair advantage?" Certainly a tournament can kick you out, but Blizzard cannot deny you service for the way that you run your personal computer.
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On May 28 2010 11:06 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:56 Durak wrote:I thought this thread was going to contain a legal argument since the title is "Blizzard's terms are illegal." However, this quote destroyed that hope. On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. This is incorrect by Canadian law. You can't claim that you were unaware after accepting a terms of use agreement because it counts as reasonable notice. I'm pretty sure American contract law is the same in this regard. If you're trying to make an argument as to how regulation prevents some of these contract terms, make it. Don't make extreme claims such as, "this says you don't own your RAM" without quoting some regulation. At a glance, it looks fine to me. Edit: Seriously, this is a basic standard form offer. I don't know why you're making such strong claims without support. I agree that the Canadian interpretation makes sense - but when fine print oversteps what it has a reasonable right to claim (in this case property rights over your computer hardware), then you can take it to court (in the U.S. anyway). Your bias is backwards. It's a basic and standard form in that companies often say things that have zero legal backing. No one cares to bring these things to court because of the cost - when was the last time you saw a class action lawsuit over a video game?
It's the same thing in Canada. If there is regulation that overrules the contract terms, the contract terms are obviously invalid.
Standard form offers do often have unenforceable claims. I don't see why that would be my problem though because they would be prosecuting (plus I live in Canada, lol).
To bring this back to your argument in the OP, I believe you have some good points. I agree that much of 2, especially D, is too broad. In fact, 2D is easily interpreted to mean that every user of the software is violating the ToS. Your operating system is always going to be a software intermediary between Battle.net and your RAM.
I think that you're approaching this from the wrong angle by arguing about property rights though. Again, I don't know anything about American contract law, but there are probably better objections.
Blizzard is definitely trying to make the terms more general than they reasonably can be. However, it doesn't effect me so I don't care.
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On May 28 2010 10:59 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:54 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops. If Blizzard wanted to revoke their accounts, they would absolutely be within their rights. Does it suck? Yes. Is it in any way illegal? No. How is that so hard to understand? Show me a legal (U.S.) ruling that backs the right of commercial software to restrict access to computer memory.
There isn't one.
But that wasn't his point. All he said was that Blizzard has the right to revoke your account should they deem your actions undesirable. It's beyond me why you just cannot understand/accept this fact.
And you need to stop dramatizing everything. The way you rant about the issue sounds like Blizzard is giving out Trojans with the game clients.
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Does this not apply to almost every multiplayer game out there? I can't even think of an example where the player 'owns' the account. This is what lawyers do, they cover all the bases; and you can bet that Blizzard has a lot of lawyers. It's like buying a ticket to a concert, they reserve the right to kick you out. I don't see how this stops you from owning your hard drive - what are they going to do, nuke it from headquarters? The most they can do is ban your account.
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On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid.
i know nothing about law but i at least am capable of running a search through lexisnexis
5 minutes turned up this extract from south carolina lawyer '08: (original discussion was about online privacy but this is an analogy to the eula/tos)
An analogy can be made to the online license agreement, about which there is a large body of case law discussing online contract formation. Those cases have found that users are bound to online licenses to which they have "clicked" acceptance or where they have actual notice of the terms. Users are not bound to license agreements that are only visible to the user by "browsing"--scrolling down the screen or to a different screen--and where the user is not required to view the license in order to complete the transaction. See Motise v. America Online, Inc., 346 F. Supp. 2d 563 (S.D.N.Y. 2004).
so just because people don't read them, doesn't mean they're not binding.. see the relevant case
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On May 28 2010 11:11 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 11:07 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:59 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:54 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops. If Blizzard wanted to revoke their accounts, they would absolutely be within their rights. Does it suck? Yes. Is it in any way illegal? No. How is that so hard to understand? Show me a legal (U.S.) ruling that backs the right of commercial software to restrict access to computer memory. "provided, however, that Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces;" If R1ch's program is in no way malicious, I don't see them not allowing it. This basically states "if something is good, we will allow it" It's not their right to approve or disapprove what else is running on your computer. Again, it's easy to side with the benevolent dictator, but what if a program is deemed to give an "unfair advantage?" Certainly a tournament can kick you out, but Blizzard cannot deny you service for the way that you run your personal computer.
Of course not, but you still don't get it.
It's not their right to approve or disapprove what else is running on your computer.
But it IS their right to terminate your account when 3rd party software is running in CONJUNCTION with whatever game client you're running.
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United States47024 Posts
On May 28 2010 11:11 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 11:07 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:59 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:54 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops. If Blizzard wanted to revoke their accounts, they would absolutely be within their rights. Does it suck? Yes. Is it in any way illegal? No. How is that so hard to understand? Show me a legal (U.S.) ruling that backs the right of commercial software to restrict access to computer memory. "provided, however, that Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces;" If R1ch's program is in no way malicious, I don't see them not allowing it. This basically states "if something is good, we will allow it" It's not their right to approve or disapprove what else is running on your computer.Again, it's easy to side with the benevolent dictator, but what if a program is deemed to give an "unfair advantage?" Certainly a tournament can kick you out, but Blizzard cannot deny you service for the way that you run your personal computer.
In other words, they're not allowed ban people for hacking?
If you're generalizing to "what else is running on your computer", then at that level, there's no relevant difference between Oblivion and Chaoslauncher.
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Wait you don't own your hard drive? Meaning they could just collect everyone's hard drives if they wanted?
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One of the two sides of this argument seriously needs to show some precedent. As far as I am aware, not being aware of the terms of a contract is never grounds for breaking it. If mmp or someone else has a court case that establishes a precedent in the opposite direction, please show it to us.
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Edit: would rather not get into it. Not a lawyer.
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They are reserving the right to ban you from Battle.net which they certainly can do as they please if you are doing something they don't like and its pretty obvious what those are, twisting their words into something completely unrelated isn't making you have a better argument.
SC1 mods aren't even supposed to exist with all the backdooring the programs do to make them work but they don't care about them over Battle.net, it's pretty obvious why their ToU wouldn't be supportive of something like ICCUP running on its own server emulator or assisting its development (data-mining) or you hacking their game for your own advantage.
It's the same agreement for pretty much every online service/game out there, whats your next argument going to be that they shouldn't be allowed to ban RMT spammers?
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On May 28 2010 09:53 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 09:42 Conquest101 wrote:On May 28 2010 09:40 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 09:33 ramen- wrote:
This is a terms of use agreement, meaning that you agree to do this. If you don't agree to these terms, then just don't buy the game. Blizzard is not under a legal obligation to sell you its software with a liberal license agreement. You must knowingly forfeit your property rights. It is understood that virtually no user reads or understands these agreements, therefore the claims are invalid. Lol what? The claims are invalid because people don't read what they're agreeing too? Brb, going to "buy" some real estate. Yes, exactly because no one reads the terms for a computer game versus a license for more important goods and services. There is no means of verifying that a user agreed to the terms as they are presented - therefore Blizzard's claims constitute "fine print." If Blizzard just said they could ban users for completely arbitrary reasons (such as race, religion, politics) and it was in the ToS, it would still be an illegal overreach of your civil liberties to enjoy a good or service - precisely because a wide audience of people who may be unfairly harmed. In general, you have a right to use your computer hardware as you like (provided you harm no one else) and it takes far more sophisticated legal statements than this to invalidate your property rights.
What about those parts in points you mentioned?
however, that Blizzard may, at its sole and absolute discretion, allow the use of certain third party user interfaces;
in any way not expressly authorized by Blizzard;
using programs or tools not expressly approved by Blizzard;
If you are resorting to something that isn't there then I don't think you have any examples to back your OP. ICCUP and every program made for WoW (and there is fuckton of them) is enough to show that you are wrong.
On May 28 2010 10:41 mmp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2010 10:36 seppolevne wrote:On May 28 2010 10:25 mmp wrote:On May 28 2010 10:19 Kralic wrote:I gave this blog a 5/5 but then I realized he was serious. Don't sweat the terms of use unless you are planning on using malicious software to cheat in this game or gain money off of it without their consent. Did you know that warden scans your computer and records everything? Now warden is evil but guess what it was found to be a legal program for Blizzard to use. Here is what you just agreed to have running on your computer by accepting their TOS. Warden It's not malicious software I'm defending. On May 28 2010 10:19 ShaperofDreams wrote:
mmp it doesn't matter, and what blizzard is doing is legal. who cares whether people read the user agreement or not, they are supposed to. So you agree that you don't have the right to run programs like APMLive, or Build order coachers, Rich's latency-fixing program, latency fixes that may come in the future, etc? And you forfeit the right to customize textures, sounds, models, configuration files...? You forfeit all of this? YES YES YES. If you don't want to then don't buy the game. So you think Rich and anyone who uses his program deserve to have their accounts revoked? How about the TL users that are customizing textures and other game features. They don't deserve to play on the same server as you? You may worship a benevolent dictator, but don't complain when the other shoe drops.
Who customizes textures to play normal games and not just mods? What other features do you have in mind?
when was the last time you saw a class action lawsuit over a video game?
When was the last time you saw them ban accounts for anything other than hacking?
On a side note, + Show Spoiler +I remember W3 UMS games where demons where running with huge erected falluses attached and blink described as using those falluses as poles to jump.
My friend saw a Naruto UMS with little Sasuke doing seals. How badly does this break Blizzard's ToS?
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EPT
