• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 00:07
CEST 06:07
KST 13:07
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3
Community News
Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."0Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.2Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)11BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1
StarCraft 2
General
Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson." Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey. The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2) feardragon: Blizzards biggest blunder with SC was…
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games BW General Discussion FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - Day 4
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Path of Exile Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread NHL Playoffs 2024 TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 27372 users

The Philosophy of Cheesing

Blogs > zeratultassadar
Post a Reply
zeratultassadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia30 Posts
May 08 2010 02:11 GMT
#1
OK so basically the way I see it there are two main scenarios of cheesing. One is where the cheesing player knows he is better than his opponent and either wants to throws his opponent off guard (because he knows the opponent won't scout it -- or, even if he does, won't react properly) or win as quickly as possible ("I'm not wasting my time with you, noob"). The premise: the superior player doesn't really care whether the weaker player scouts the cheese because the cheeser won't really be behind at any point -- it's low risk. I won't lie, I've been cheesed by supposedly superior players who didn't want to fight me head on because they thought it was below them, or something like that.

This also brings me to the second scenario of cheesing: where a weaker player attempts to cheese a stronger player with the hopes the other player doesn't scout it (cuz if he does it's GG). The motivation would be that the weaker player probably knows he doesn't stand a chance in a "normal" game. The premise: the weaker player desperately tries to conceal the cheese, because he knows he will be pretty behind if it is scouted -- it's high risk.

A third possibility would be when two players of about equal skill play each other. One of the players might attempt to "pull a fast one" or gain some advantage in an otherwise pretty equally matched contest. The premise: hide the cheese as well as you can, but no so much pressure as in scenario 2 (for example, maybe you'll get lucky and the other guy won't know how to react; it's moderately risky.

So, your opinions please. Under which cases is cheesing more/most likely? Stronger player cheesing weaker player...weaker player cheesing stronger player...2 players of about equal playing strength cheesing each other?

*
lone_hydra
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada1460 Posts
May 08 2010 02:19 GMT
#2
Cheese happens more often when players are around the same level IMO. Don't know why, just is what I noticed.
Fav Gamers: 2)Stork 5)Bisu
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2801 Posts
May 08 2010 02:21 GMT
#3
Stronger player cheesing weaker player:

It is likely given that most good players don't like wasting their time playing against newtards, so they get creative and try a lot of weird shit against them.

A country with nuclear technology will never nuke a school-sized country, but it could test weird/new shit like sending in prototype androids to take over.

Weaker player cheesing stronger player:

Happens all the time, a new player will never win a straight up game against a better player unless he gets lucky. So they try their best cheese tactics to throw them off.

It would be like a weaker country smashing hijacked airplanes into a building or smuggling in a couple biological weapons here and there into subways and shit.

Two players of about equal strength cheesing each other:

The cheesing player will do nothing but help the other player improve his anti-cheese tactics which isn't a good thing for the long term.

I would compare it to the U.S. sending in troops to take over Moscow while Putin finds himself underground pressing the nuke button.
2minutevictory
Profile Joined December 2009
United States89 Posts
May 08 2010 05:06 GMT
#4
it depends on the type of cheese.

Like, when it's 2 equal strength players you often see Dt drops / Reaver drops. 2 port wraith / proxied factories

When it's a weaker player trying to beat a stronger player you often see stuff like 9 pool into 1 hatch lurker + drop, or mabye 3 rax sunk bust.

When it's a stronger player playing a weaker one... you often see 8rax / single proxy gate / 9pool speed.

i think cheese occurs the most when it's 2 equal players playing against each other.
then it would be the stronger player playing a weaker one
and finally the weaker trying to win against the stronger player(unless they have absolutely 0 confidence).
FiBsTeR
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States415 Posts
May 08 2010 07:09 GMT
#5
I disagree with your "scouted cheese --> gg" statement, and this is perhaps the reason stronger players may be comfortable in cheesing players of lower skill. The most classic example (at least from my noob protoss point of view) is proxy 9/9 gate PvP. You see this build on iccup all the time, especially when desti/hbr/match point are MOTW.

The reason the build is so strong is that, at least from my experience with this build, there is only one viable counter: 10/12 gate, cutting probes to get your first shield battery when the cheeser gets his, in which case you still need to micro near perfectly. Against anything else (barring the case where both players proxy), if the cheeser is the stronger player, he will be able to capitalize on the mistake and take an advantage, if not win the game outright. The point is that scouting the cheese doesn't mean you auto-win: it just means you won't auto-die and that you can take an advantage provided you respond correctly.

And therein lies the rub: even decent players who do not have a lot of experience with very specific cheeses can fail to respond correctly to a cheese. And as we all know, it doesn't take much skill to execute a cheese 100% perfectly, whereas it actually does take some skill to scout and respond correctly.

But wait, FiBsTeR, if it takes more skill to counter cheese, why doesn't the stronger player always cheese? The problem is that, unlike solid play, cheese cannot be undone. There is very little variation you can do once you've committed to cheese, even if you've been made. Solid play cannot be "countered" in the sense that the better player with solid play can adapt to what he scouts and trust his superior skill to win the game as the marginal advantages he gains with each adaptation accumulates to game-deciding advantages.

The key takeaway is that cheese should never be tied to the weaker player or stronger player. It all comes down to whether the person being cheesed is knowledgeable of the correct response.

I was a cheesy BW player and most of my wins were not because I was the more skilled player but rather that I grinded the ladder playing the same situations over and over, to the point where if and when I observed a flaw in my opponent's response to my play, I could immediately claim the game as mine simply because I could turn that mistake into a game-winning advantage. On the other hand, all of my losses were generally the same solid counters. And, unlike such solid play, I could do nothing about it but shrug it off and make my "PvP Matchpoint C" game again and hope for the best. The solid player would take that replay and say "Oh, in this situation X, I have to do Y and avoid Z to come out ahead," and add that variation to his list of things to consider in future games. The cheeser says, "Oh, player X knows how to counter cheese Y," and adds the opponent to the list of people to ban from his next game.

One piece of advice to people who get cheesed: once you lose to a cheese, don't even think about what the correct counter is. Learn the cheese first. Learn it to the point where you can execute it yourself flawlessly. Then get plenty of sleep and stay up late with the Koreans the next day, cheesing the fuck out of them with your newly acquired build. I guarantee you within a few hours you will have gathered a few replays of perfectly executed response(s) to the cheese. And it would have taken you much longer to come up with yourself (or else enlist TL to do it for you). Why put in the work when someone miles away already has?

Anyways there's my $0.02 (maybe like $0.05) on cheese. Typing on an iPhone sucks.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Korean StarCraft League
03:00
Week 76
SteadfastSC362
CranKy Ducklings121
EnkiAlexander 77
HKG_Chickenman21
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
SteadfastSC 362
Nina 192
StarCraft: Brood War
PianO 303
Larva 187
Leta 165
Icarus 8
soO 7
Dota 2
LuMiX1
League of Legends
JimRising 760
Other Games
summit1g10207
C9.Mang01183
WinterStarcraft242
ViBE214
RuFF_SC2109
Trikslyr64
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream2847
Other Games
gamesdonequick980
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• practicex 31
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Doublelift5243
• Stunt270
Other Games
• Scarra1241
Upcoming Events
SOOP
4h 53m
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
5h 53m
WardiTV Invitational
6h 53m
ByuN vs MaNa
MaxPax vs Solar
Reynor vs Creator
Gerald vs Spirit
Cheesadelphia
10h 53m
CSO Cup
12h 53m
BSL: ProLeague
13h 53m
Hawk vs UltrA
Sziky vs spx
TerrOr vs JDConan
GSL Code S
1d 3h
Rogue vs herO
Classic vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 5h
BSL: ProLeague
1d 13h
Bonyth vs Dewalt
Cross vs Doodle
MadiNho vs Dragon
Replay Cast
1d 19h
[ Show More ]
Wardi Open
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
4 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
4 days
The PondCast
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Replay Cast
5 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.