• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 14:28
CEST 20:28
KST 03:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)6Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over2New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!38Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles3
StarCraft 2
General
Weekly Cups (August 10-16): SHIN doubles Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over SC4ALL II: SC2 Player Announcement 6/8 - Maru How would you feel about frequent/monthly balance patches for SC2? Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) PIG STY FESTIVAL 8.0! (13 - 23 August) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome
Brood War
General
[Personal Project Share] Terran Defense v0.60 Which box art did your first copy of StarCraft 1 have? BW General Discussion ASL22 General Discussion New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro24 Group F Small VOD Thread 2.0 Escore Tournament - Season 3
Strategy
Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Anyone here play Quakeworld back in the day? EVE Corporation
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Please support my new stand…
Peanutsc
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7868 users

The Philosophy of Cheesing

Blogs > zeratultassadar
Post a Reply
zeratultassadar
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Australia30 Posts
May 08 2010 02:11 GMT
#1
OK so basically the way I see it there are two main scenarios of cheesing. One is where the cheesing player knows he is better than his opponent and either wants to throws his opponent off guard (because he knows the opponent won't scout it -- or, even if he does, won't react properly) or win as quickly as possible ("I'm not wasting my time with you, noob"). The premise: the superior player doesn't really care whether the weaker player scouts the cheese because the cheeser won't really be behind at any point -- it's low risk. I won't lie, I've been cheesed by supposedly superior players who didn't want to fight me head on because they thought it was below them, or something like that.

This also brings me to the second scenario of cheesing: where a weaker player attempts to cheese a stronger player with the hopes the other player doesn't scout it (cuz if he does it's GG). The motivation would be that the weaker player probably knows he doesn't stand a chance in a "normal" game. The premise: the weaker player desperately tries to conceal the cheese, because he knows he will be pretty behind if it is scouted -- it's high risk.

A third possibility would be when two players of about equal skill play each other. One of the players might attempt to "pull a fast one" or gain some advantage in an otherwise pretty equally matched contest. The premise: hide the cheese as well as you can, but no so much pressure as in scenario 2 (for example, maybe you'll get lucky and the other guy won't know how to react; it's moderately risky.

So, your opinions please. Under which cases is cheesing more/most likely? Stronger player cheesing weaker player...weaker player cheesing stronger player...2 players of about equal playing strength cheesing each other?

*
lone_hydra
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Canada1460 Posts
May 08 2010 02:19 GMT
#2
Cheese happens more often when players are around the same level IMO. Don't know why, just is what I noticed.
Fav Gamers: 2)Stork 5)Bisu
EsX_Raptor
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States2802 Posts
May 08 2010 02:21 GMT
#3
Stronger player cheesing weaker player:

It is likely given that most good players don't like wasting their time playing against newtards, so they get creative and try a lot of weird shit against them.

A country with nuclear technology will never nuke a school-sized country, but it could test weird/new shit like sending in prototype androids to take over.

Weaker player cheesing stronger player:

Happens all the time, a new player will never win a straight up game against a better player unless he gets lucky. So they try their best cheese tactics to throw them off.

It would be like a weaker country smashing hijacked airplanes into a building or smuggling in a couple biological weapons here and there into subways and shit.

Two players of about equal strength cheesing each other:

The cheesing player will do nothing but help the other player improve his anti-cheese tactics which isn't a good thing for the long term.

I would compare it to the U.S. sending in troops to take over Moscow while Putin finds himself underground pressing the nuke button.
2minutevictory
Profile Joined December 2009
United States89 Posts
May 08 2010 05:06 GMT
#4
it depends on the type of cheese.

Like, when it's 2 equal strength players you often see Dt drops / Reaver drops. 2 port wraith / proxied factories

When it's a weaker player trying to beat a stronger player you often see stuff like 9 pool into 1 hatch lurker + drop, or mabye 3 rax sunk bust.

When it's a stronger player playing a weaker one... you often see 8rax / single proxy gate / 9pool speed.

i think cheese occurs the most when it's 2 equal players playing against each other.
then it would be the stronger player playing a weaker one
and finally the weaker trying to win against the stronger player(unless they have absolutely 0 confidence).
FiBsTeR
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States415 Posts
May 08 2010 07:09 GMT
#5
I disagree with your "scouted cheese --> gg" statement, and this is perhaps the reason stronger players may be comfortable in cheesing players of lower skill. The most classic example (at least from my noob protoss point of view) is proxy 9/9 gate PvP. You see this build on iccup all the time, especially when desti/hbr/match point are MOTW.

The reason the build is so strong is that, at least from my experience with this build, there is only one viable counter: 10/12 gate, cutting probes to get your first shield battery when the cheeser gets his, in which case you still need to micro near perfectly. Against anything else (barring the case where both players proxy), if the cheeser is the stronger player, he will be able to capitalize on the mistake and take an advantage, if not win the game outright. The point is that scouting the cheese doesn't mean you auto-win: it just means you won't auto-die and that you can take an advantage provided you respond correctly.

And therein lies the rub: even decent players who do not have a lot of experience with very specific cheeses can fail to respond correctly to a cheese. And as we all know, it doesn't take much skill to execute a cheese 100% perfectly, whereas it actually does take some skill to scout and respond correctly.

But wait, FiBsTeR, if it takes more skill to counter cheese, why doesn't the stronger player always cheese? The problem is that, unlike solid play, cheese cannot be undone. There is very little variation you can do once you've committed to cheese, even if you've been made. Solid play cannot be "countered" in the sense that the better player with solid play can adapt to what he scouts and trust his superior skill to win the game as the marginal advantages he gains with each adaptation accumulates to game-deciding advantages.

The key takeaway is that cheese should never be tied to the weaker player or stronger player. It all comes down to whether the person being cheesed is knowledgeable of the correct response.

I was a cheesy BW player and most of my wins were not because I was the more skilled player but rather that I grinded the ladder playing the same situations over and over, to the point where if and when I observed a flaw in my opponent's response to my play, I could immediately claim the game as mine simply because I could turn that mistake into a game-winning advantage. On the other hand, all of my losses were generally the same solid counters. And, unlike such solid play, I could do nothing about it but shrug it off and make my "PvP Matchpoint C" game again and hope for the best. The solid player would take that replay and say "Oh, in this situation X, I have to do Y and avoid Z to come out ahead," and add that variation to his list of things to consider in future games. The cheeser says, "Oh, player X knows how to counter cheese Y," and adds the opponent to the list of people to ban from his next game.

One piece of advice to people who get cheesed: once you lose to a cheese, don't even think about what the correct counter is. Learn the cheese first. Learn it to the point where you can execute it yourself flawlessly. Then get plenty of sleep and stay up late with the Koreans the next day, cheesing the fuck out of them with your newly acquired build. I guarantee you within a few hours you will have gathered a few replays of perfectly executed response(s) to the cheese. And it would have taken you much longer to come up with yourself (or else enlist TL to do it for you). Why put in the work when someone miles away already has?

Anyways there's my $0.02 (maybe like $0.05) on cheese. Typing on an iPhone sucks.
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 5h 32m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 352
ProTech124
BRAT_OK 117
MindelVK 28
Railgan 23
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 22430
Shuttle 1241
Rush 219
Horang2 188
Dewaltoss 164
Aegong 42
Pusan 32
sSak 31
Sexy 31
soO 31
[ Show more ]
Light 31
Dota 2
Gorgc5798
qojqva3268
Dendi1635
420jenkins717
Other Games
Liquid`RaSZi1742
Grubby947
Beastyqt842
ceh9639
mouzStarbuck298
Mlord251
TKL 247
IndyStarCraft 234
XaKoH 186
ArmadaUGS157
C9.Mang0119
Trikslyr61
QueenE44
Mew2King43
Organizations
Other Games
WardiTV487
BasetradeTV44
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• mYiSmile135
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• Pr0nogo 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis2614
• TFBlade972
Other Games
• imaqtpie857
• WagamamaTV380
• Shiphtur324
Upcoming Events
PiGosaur Cup
5h 32m
Kung Fu Cup
16h 32m
Replay Cast
1d 5h
The PondCast
1d 15h
IntoTheTV X SOOP
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
4 days
OSC
4 days
Afreeca Starleague
5 days
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
5 days
[ Show More ]
Afreeca Starleague
6 days
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
GSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL 2026 LAN: Kraków
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
RSL Revival: Season 6
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026

Upcoming

Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
HSC XXX
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
Calamity Invitational
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.