EPTWhy i hate SC2 (longer version) - Page 3
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
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decemvre1
Romania51 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:35 Liquid`NonY wrote: Then it's forcing you to invest in economy and it kinda goes against some of your other complaining (1 base play is too strong). Terran expansions are too strong because of PF's but playing off one base is too strong too? If your one base play is so strong, kill the Terran who expands. If not, then play macro game like you seem to want to really do. I really don't understand you Nony. Why are you such a huge defender for SC2 ? These are serious complaints i'm making here and i'm sure you understand all of them though you might not agree with some (say PF), i refuse to believe you disagree with all of them. There's no way in hell someone as good as you doesn't understand my more important complaints. My guess is you're just happy to ignore the lack of EVERYTHING in this game and go with whatever blizzard gives you. 2 years from now we will both be playing a game where SCOUTING is the most important thing you have to do and basically everything will revolve around knowing what ur opponent is doing and countering that. Nothing more. | ||
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vOddy
Sweden402 Posts
On May 06 2010 06:56 WiljushkA wrote: my thoughts exactly also, you played 1300 matches in a game you hate? i do agree with you on some points, but they obviously dont ruin the game for me. on some other points i think youre exagarating. It's obvious he wants to like the game. That's why he played 1300 games. He just can't like it, but he wants to. | ||
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ZeroCartin
Costa Rica2390 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:42 decemvre wrote: Isnt that the way Broodwar is now? | ||
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decemvre1
Romania51 Posts
I'm guessing you can't just simply scout and counter this micro, can you ? | ||
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decemvre1
Romania51 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:45 vOddy wrote: It's obvious he wants to like the game. That's why he played 1300 games. He just can't like it, but he wants to. Precisely | ||
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Trumpet
United States1935 Posts
I absolutely love the fact that the interface makes it easier to play. The top players are top players because of their understanding, the high level tactics, the incredible map control, the ability to seemingly be everywhere at once without missing a beat in production, etc. Those are all already mentally taxing, difficult things to be skilled at, so there's no need to tag a physical requirement onto it as well. A lot of these sc2 disappointment threads just reek of having only played mainly one game competitively and now trying to force everything to be exactly like that one game. You see it in every gaming community when a new game is released, the specifics change but the underlying complaining remains the same. | ||
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Sosha
United States749 Posts
yes, the micro aspect of SC2 seems to be long gone, compared to that of BW - and I agree about the apm thing too. I worked pretty hard and vigorously to pick up my Protoss from liek 160 to 220 apm and now, in SC2, it doesnt seem liek it matters as much, as i can pretty much accomplish the same stuff that I need with about 130 apm, mostly beacuse u really dont have to click too much because u can hotkey liek 14 gates on 1 hotkey and then just spam 'zeal' etc.. 1 base play is very strong and evident in SC2.. Another thing that i liekd about BW is that it had much diversity, at least with Protoss matchups. For instance, in PvT, u could open w/ FE and still be safe. U could open fast rvr drop, fast dt, or even make arbiters. In SC2, if u try FE v T, u're doomed and theres no way u can be safe or build up quick enough to stop anything he might try. Some of the counters to Terran units almost seem impossible - like mass marine w/ a few marauder backup + medivac.. I mean.. all units suck against marine. Zeal, sentry, stalker, immortal.. Zeal does pretty good dmg, but against a mass horde of marines, and the fact that they can make 2 at a time, have stim, + 10 hp bonus, and medivac.. what zeal has? a very slight momentary speed increase when running into battle? I think speed-zeals from BW are liek 100000000 x's better than 'charge'... totally stupid upgrade.. (not saying its not useful in SC2 though, cause obviously zealots would suck even more without this "upgrade") a couple things i wanted to point out tho, although i havent finished the thread yet: spore colonies.. are fine.. because 1 important factor: They can move. forcefields are a nessecity for Protoss because storm isnt easy to get to, nor as effective as it was from BW. there is a way to battle agianst forcefield. EMP. may not work for Zerg, but if the protoss doesnt have any enery, they cant cast any spells, correct? and zerg just has their mass units and a handy little imbalanced bastard called the roach. Not only doe sit have 145 HP, which is more than most of the PRotoss HP units @ tier 1, but its ranged (slightly, so it can be micro'd), does 16 dmg, burrows and is capable of moving while burrowed and the biggest feature of them that makes them pretty overpowered is the fact that they can heal faster than a medic would heal them from BW.. Even Nony has noticed this atrocity and i'm glad that someones agrees w/ it besides me. Again, Zerg isnt supposed to have units as strong as Protoss, HP wise, they're supposed to outnumber them with cheap units produced quicker due to their hatcheries.. zerg seems to be even stronger of a force in SC2 than in BW, i mean, they have a lot of improvement aspects to them, as compared to terran or protoss who seem to have kept a lot of their features with no real improvements (except maybe forcefield, collousus, or planetary fortress etc) zerg has their queen which doubles their larva production, making 1 hatchery basically = 2, they have spawn creep ability w/ OL's, and of course the speed-creep enhancement where all units move quicker on creep.. so couple that with the cheap units that are really fierce that u just have to transform from larva so all u really have to spend $$ on is the building itself and maybe an upgrade or two. Not quite the same as protoss who has to not only spend 150$/gateway but also upgrades and the units themselves which are alrdy expensive. It's not liek we can pop out 2 zealots at a time from 1 gateway and theres no upgrade or spell that can equal zergs production. warp gates + chrono boost + forcefields are Protoss ways of compensating for these shortcomings cause really, warp gates are pretty awesome.. its like taking a page out of the zergs playbook, being able to have units warp in anywhere, like a nydus network. | ||
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TimmyMac
Canada499 Posts
They're in the business of making money. If they feel that making a Broodwar clone with a 3d engine is the best way to do it, they will. | ||
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Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:35 Liquid`NonY wrote: Then it's forcing you to invest in economy and it kinda goes against some of your other complaining (1 base play is too strong). Terran expansions are too strong because of PF's but playing off one base is too strong too? If your one base play is so strong, kill the Terran who expands. If not, then play macro game like you seem to want to really do. i agree with many things that op said, but u are missing something comon nony u are one of the best BW players and u really know what he means about 1base play its too strong, lets say that everybody play 1base allin what will happen to the game? it will become Boring as hell, do not know why so many people criticize the point of view of the OP when he is totally right, and them come a morron that said, dont do this or that if u dont like ppl like this i think never played BW and just want a easy game to master, its real that SC2 its in BETA but that doesnt mean i cant talk about what i dont like For god sake. | ||
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Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:42 decemvre wrote: I really don't understand you Nony. Why are you such a huge defender for SC2 ? These are serious complaints i'm making here and i'm sure you understand all of them though you might not agree with some (say PF), i refuse to believe you disagree with all of them. There's no way in hell someone as good as you doesn't understand my more important complaints. My guess is you're just happy to ignore the lack of EVERYTHING in this game and go with whatever blizzard gives you. 2 years from now we will both be playing a game where SCOUTING is the most important thing you have to do and basically everything will revolve around knowing what ur opponent is doing and countering that. Nothing more. Love it! | ||
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wanderer
United States641 Posts
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Re-Play-
Dominican Republic825 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:51 Trumpet wrote: I don't get the APM arguments at all. Incredibly high apm shouldn't be a requirement, and it never truly was in BW. sAviOr's APM was never notably high, but he managed to be the best in the world. I absolutely love the fact that the interface makes it easier to play. The top players are top players because of their understanding, the high level tactics, the incredible map control, the ability to seemingly be everywhere at once without missing a beat in production, etc. Those are all already mentally taxing, difficult things to be skilled at, so there's no need to tag a physical requirement onto it as well. A lot of these sc2 disappointment threads just reek of having only played mainly one game competitively and now trying to force everything to be exactly like that one game. You see it in every gaming community when a new game is released, the specifics change but the underlying complaining remains the same. man just watch the game Jaedong vs Midas and tell me if u dont need High APM to make those plays Jaedong did, what happen to this PPL this game have more than 20,000views a game that have 10years old | ||
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Ziph
Netherlands970 Posts
EVERY GAME THESE DAYS and for the last 4years gets made so FUCKING RETARDED EASY that it becomes boring after 5minutes of playing. Why they do this and why it will never change. You buy it play it for 2minutes then get bored. Making you buy a new game. aka more money. Reminds me of this, <3 Pure Pwnage. | ||
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decemvre1
Romania51 Posts
Some people don't seem to understand the following. Having 300 apm in BW doesn't mean you are twice as good as someone who has 150 apm; it just means you get a slight advantage because you worked harder and that small advantage gets smaller as apm goes higher. Imagine in a 20 minute game, the difference between 400 apm and 300 apm as 2 idle workers and the difference between 150 apm and 50 apm as 20 idle workers. | ||
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Mindcrime
United States6899 Posts
On May 06 2010 07:14 zealing wrote: Chill is 100% right on this, check out some old Boxer games around 2001-2 and you will see both players having only around 40-70 apm. anything above 70-80 was like high, in BW people like Strelok had 180-220 apm and owned lots of people but that was 10 years later. In 2001-2002? Koreans? That is nonsense. When bwchart came out, Nazgul was given hell for having been slow with his 170ish apm. Boxer was 200+ apm at the time, and players like nada and chojja were much faster. Even some players who never did well professionally, like arang, had 350+ apm before bwchart came out. | ||
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Piy
Scotland3152 Posts
APM rage is nice to see though. I <3 APM rage. | ||
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Mobius
Canada1268 Posts
The economy is ridiculous, its just so awful.. It feels like you're limited to 1base play otherwise you're constantly poor. If you have good macro as a zerg player it feels impossible to expand because rather than adding hatcheries, you just make queen.. They made a crappy substitute for macro. "Lets just get automine, hotkeying multiple buildings, then we will have to add queens or MULEs or something stupid so players arent idle at their computers" Zerg get 1 spell caster.. nice.. There is no crucial timings really.. Like when your 9muta are out, or when your consume research finishes. There is no way of containing enemy in their base with muta or lurkers or anything. not really any use for detector until late game. Its hard to tell what the map is with the weird terran and you start with the map with everything already showing.. its hard to tell whats going on in the mini map. and i swear to god.. sometimes my units just walk right past an MM ball when i attack move.. I dont know if its a bug or i accidently left click a building or what.. but definately something wrong. On May 06 2010 07:03 swanized wrote: you know this is a 2010 game... it is meant so that you don't need as much skill then BW to play a game like Broodwar would not sell anymore this game has no e-sport potential, but don't listen to Dustin Browder... they don't REALLY want it to become an e-sport... they want it to sell only the manliest of nerds will go on playing BW so yah stop complaining about that game and go back to good old 12 years old engine that made a game REALLY epic Yes! I totally agree lmao.. I dont trust Dustin Browder at all.. On May 06 2010 07:00 Chill wrote: 1300 games?! There's no way... How are you only 1600-1700 at 1300 games? When Brood War was competitive, many of the top players had 50 APM. It takes awhile to learn the game. Not sure why people keep ignoring this and expecting everyone to be fully comfortable with every unit. Its different though.. Before brood war, the only players with any experience were like.. wc2 players or something.. now everyone has rts experience. | ||
NonY
8751 Posts
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