• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 08:28
CEST 14:28
KST 21:28
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3BGE Stara Zagora 2025: Info & Preview27Code S RO12 Preview: GuMiho, Bunny, SHIN, ByuN3The Memories We Share - Facing the Final(?) GSL47
Community News
BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack2Weekly Cups (June 2-8): herO doubles down1[BSL20] ProLeague: Bracket Stage & Dates9GSL Ro4 and Finals moved to Sunday June 15th13Weekly Cups (May 27-June 1): ByuN goes back-to-back0
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation Jim claims he and Firefly were involved in match-fixing Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic DreamHack Dallas 2025 - Official Replay Pack BGE Stara Zagora 2025 - Replay Pack
Tourneys
[GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group B [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Ro8 - Group A RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Darkgrid Layout Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] PvT Cheese: 13 Gate Proxy Robo
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target Mutation # 474 Futile Resistance
Brood War
General
FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu BW General Discussion BGH auto balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ StarCraft & BroodWar Campaign Speedrun Quest Will foreigners ever be able to challenge Koreans?
Tourneys
[ASL19] Grand Finals [BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET NA Team League 6/8/2025 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Beyond All Reason Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Vape Nation Thread
Fan Clubs
Maru Fan Club Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 28282 users

I do not like Sc2.

Blogs > IskatuMesk
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
IskatuMesk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada969 Posts
May 02 2010 19:37 GMT
#1
I am sure I will get flamed to hell and back by what I am about to say. I implore you to have patience and continue reading on to understand my reasoning.

"Starcraft 2 is one of the greatest disappointments in my entire gaming life."

One may ask, "Well why do you say that?"

To understand my viewpoint, one must consider what it is I have done all my life.

For a decade I have modded Starcraft: Brood War. I have modded Warcraft 3. I have modded Diablo 2. I have modded Halo PC, Neverwinter Nights, Age of Wonders 2, and beyond. Many would consider me the greatest of Starcraft modders - a title granted only by the decay of Starcraft modding and being the last one standing. Chances are if you've modded Starcraft you've heard my name. But you aren't modders, are you? You have no idea who I am, or what I do, or what significance it plays in my viewpoints of the sequel.



Believe me friend, I have been to hell and back already.

Starcraft drew me in my youth with one thing. Not Proleague, not Micro, but immersion. Through the concept of Immersion, the most powerful element any one game can have to open the gates to the mind, Starcraft had changed my life. This is a bold statement to make, but indeed it was Starcraft that carried me through the darkest ages and it is because of Starcraft that I have done what I have done. Starcraft opened the world to modding up before my eyes and it is because of this one game, this one factor, that I undertook everything from music composition to modeling.



I attempted music composition early into my Starcraft modding but could not improve my skills because of my severe mental ailments. But I did attempt it.

Starcraft and I, we have a certain bond that most players will never have. I have been in the thick of the game, tearing it apart bit by bit to not only understand how it works but how to make my own game through it. Starcraft is a very limited game to mod but, as you can see, I achieved much. Much many thought impossible in such limits.



I have been there. I have done that.

When sc2 was announced many years ago I felt as though I at long last had purpose. For so many years I had wandered aimlessly. I was still fighting to write my novel - a ventured still left unfinished - and had attempted many previous games to mod. Warcraft 3 had two critical issues that killed all of my two dozen projects: broken computer AI and broken pathing.

[image loading]

Yeah, been there, too.

I approach all games these days from the standpoint of a modder. No, not a mapper. A modder. For mappers wc3 was a dream come true. For modders it was a living hell virtually unusable.

Warcraft 3's editors was amongst the worst editors I had ever used at the time. The unit editor was disorganized and sloppy, riddled with arbitrary limits and oddities that weren't at first apparent. Most things I wanted to do could not be done without triggers or JASS - things you couldn't bring into a mod environment without tearing apart Blizzard.j and trying to compensate for performance issues that would occur from large-scale usage. In this respect maps were always superior, for maps were much smaller scale and more easy to control. But I was not such a man that I thought a lone map was worthy of so much time invested. Needlessly I pursued map projects and wasted more time and energy.

[image loading]

Extremely early terrain screenshot from the Loladins of Legend AoS.

With mod projects virtually impossible in wc3, I attempted campaigns instead. This was where issues with the computer AI completely crippled project after project. From the AI refusing to navigate simple terrain to the time-proven "Destroy a tower and run back home" glitches, my Active Map concepts were totally impossible in wc3.

[image loading]

The irony is that with wc3 I learned a great deal about the importance of Terrain and how it effects gameplay and immersion.

So, when I first heard about Starcraft 2, I had high hopes. By now I did not allow myself to have hope - too many games, like Earth 2160 and Neverwinter Nights 2, had failed horribly to come remotely close to their precursors much less improve anything. But this was Blizzard, right? Yes, Warcraft 3 sucked for what I was trying to do, but that's because they were still recycling the same engine over and over again. At least with sc2 they said they were making a new engine. Surely they'd riddle the game with stupid arbitrary limits but at least the major problems that have been crippling me all these years would be solved.

I wrapped up my last Starcraft project, Armageddon Onslaught, and said good-bye to my life friend. I was still regularly watching professional gaming but my days of participating in modding were long over. I hadn't played vanilla SC competitively in nearly 8 years, but retained a fairly strong grasp of how the game played and what made it play that way. Anything that was not immediately obvious to me made its way into my head through Day[9] Daily and other such resources. I recommended these resources to all other modders. I helped many modders balance and design their mods, for a characteristic most modders had in Starcraft was a terrible, virtually non-existent, understanding of gameplay in general. This lead to retarded economy changes like those seen in Ad Adstras and many of the one-hit wonders.

[image loading]

I had made a Starcraft AI called ZAPOC that could hit Ultra tech by the 6 minute mark. This was without the C++ enhanced BWAPI. ZAPOC is the strongest non-API AI at this time. Its development was fraught with hardcoded problems, like all AI.

I would be lying if I said my mods were successful, because they weren't. Nothing I have ever done has tasted the waters of success. This is from a combination of severe mental issues and the habit of modding terribly dead games. But I've found that it's the old games that are the best to mod. This is because companies do not consider modders in their game design, Blizzard included. Warcraft 3's editor was tacked on, a stripped down version of their Dev tool. When Frozen Throne was still young, I questioned Blizzard on their forum as to their plans of correcting many issues in the editor, like the unusable AI tool. Brett Wood soon responded with a post akin to,

"We know about the issues with the editor and do not plan to fix them."

Surely enough, to this date the editor remains just as irritating to use and just as broken as it was before. But the editor still had its strong points; making great terrain was easy and relatively quick. The unit editor was a total mess but at least it was somewhat organized. A general section would contain most elements related to each other, but not always (Armor was a fair ways away from health which made changing these attributes a bit annoying).

[image loading]

This took minutes to make at most.

[image loading]
[image loading]

I was modding Halo long before Custom Edition was never mentioned. Editing maps was an extremely hilarious and amusing process. To make those platforms one had to edit a tree log and resize it in a third-party tool, then string a bunch together to create the multi-level platform I had created. I was also experimenting with my first encounters with custom skins.

Starcraft to me is unrivaled in the gaming scene. Not just as an RTS, but as a game. The only games that have nearly the kind of depth of Starcraft are all rogue-likes, including Dwarf Fortress.

I had never heard of Rogue-likes until I discovered Dwarf Fortress through an Australian friend.

[image loading]

Dwarf Fortress is a game that uses ascii text. All it took was the reading of Boatmurdered to get me hooked to it. I use the Mayday tileset, which makes the graphics what you see here.

Dwarf Fortress is a mix of sim city, the Sims, and Dungeon Keeper. The depth of this game cannot be expressed. No two fortresses will ever play the same.

The goal of the game is to guide your band of dwarves through life. You embark on a randomly generated map to an area of your choosing. These areas can contain a vast number of geological features - freezing Blizzards, lava, skeletal groundhogs and zombie whales. You do everything from strike deep into the earth to assemble dwarven armies to drown pointy-eared faggots in a pit of fiery justice.

The new Dwarf Fortress version recently released completely overhauls the underground and adds over 150 Z-levels of depth to any given map. It adds physics to weapons and armor.

[image loading]

Aw crap, demons!

After I had been acquainted with Dwarf Fortress (largely when I poked a glowing pit and subsequently penetrated by a mass of tentacle demons), I asked myself a question.

"Why don't more games feature this kind of gameplay? That is to ask, why are modern games so shallow?"

DF is a game developed largely by one guy. It's had a long time to mature. This guy doesn't know how to make graphics, so he uses ascii text. Third parties have made several tileset/graphic mods. It is true that graphics are amongst the most critical aspects to both this question and the reasoning why DF and other rogue-likes have not totally demolished commercial gaming. Simple to say, many people cannot stomach the graphics as they are too accustomed to their shinies. At first I was much the same way.

But then I had to ask myself, "Wait, aren't I already playing ancient games anyway?"

The most recent game I played regularly was Age of Wonders 2: Shadow Magic. A Turn-based strategy similar to Heroes of Might and Magic 4. Likewise, I also modded the game.

By modding AoW2 I learned even more about gameplay. Specifically the relationships and the importance of units being properly defined. AoW2 was a very limited game unit-wise, you could only do so much with customing units. The minimum damage range was always 1-*, so the tier 10 mega dragons of death I had added were always still capable of doing next to no damage upon impact. Also, custom abilities were totally impossible.

[image loading]
[image loading]

As a long-time fan of Heroes of Might and Magic 3, I pressed on with this project despite the grand limitations of the game. The project took over a year to die, a death caused by the editor corrupting the data of the game.

The lack of unit diversity hurt this mod, much the same way the lack of racial and unit diversity kills Dawn of War and Supreme Commander. None of the races in these RTS' have truly defining attributes, merely renamed and slightly modified units (until you hit Experimentals in Supcom anyway). These are amongst many factors that restricted these games from ever reaching the pinnacle of Starcraft.

Through every one of my many mods, and all of my years of gaming, I had garnered a strong understanding of what makes games work. And through this understanding I bring to you today what I feel is amongst Sc2's greatest weaknesses.

Gameplay

Starcraft 1 had several iconic units that represented a great deal in terms of mechanics and gameflow as well as "potential". These include the Reaver and Vulture, both units you are doubtlessly familiar with. No other RTS in existence has the kind of depth these two units alone introduce into the game.

The vulture represents a critical and fundamental break away from the concepts of Hard Counters, a system that destroys any RTS. At first glance, the Vulture is hard-countered by Dragoons because, other than shields, the Vulture's concussive damage does shit-all to dragoons. But it has an ability - spider mines - that makes all the difference in the world.

The vulture, frail and relatively harmless to many units in the game, is a critical component in most Terran play. Even in TvZ - largely dominated by bionic play - many players have successfully and vigorously used Vultures to great extent.

Vultures add many things to the game. Geometric importance - the power of terrain. Mines become harder to deal with on the ridges of Heartbreak Ridge, mines can be problematic in narrow valleys, mines can be used to forced armies to move in a certain direction to bluff hidden expansions, the tactical and strategic possibilities of the Vulture alone are grand and significant.

Without mines, Vultures offer something to high-level players - hit and run. There have been many topics about hit and run to date, I need not recite their content. I was partially capable of moving-shots with vultures, something I used to great extent against the lesser-skilled players of the modding community.

But mines neither vultures themselves required high level play to make use out of. Anyone can stick mines in front of a Gateway and get effectiveness out of them. It's the experienced players that understand the psychological effect of mines and how this can be applied to map control. Mines effect every map uniquely, as do tanks, reavers, carriers, and most other units.

The Reaver is another critical unit and represents another key element - High Risk High Reward. Much of the Reaver's unit mechanics can be attributed to the Scarab, which is also a unit, and has unit pathing; it can get stuck on shit. Some people have said this isn't possible in sc2 - well, it is. It's doable in wc3, very easily I might add.

But we don't need the Vulture nor the Reaver in sc2. It's a new game, right?

But when Sc2 replaced these units it did not account for what they represented. The Reaver, such a pivotal unit with synergy to the Shuttle, was replaced by the Colossus, a unit that demands no skill from the user to maximize its potential, and a unit that gets little out of the hands of an experienced user. The "skill ceiling" of the Colossus is shallow indeed. We have seen "Colossus" drops - in fact it's one of the first things I did as Protoss - but there's nothing exciting about them. There's nothing that requires any effort. The Reaver demanded the user to fire at the right target at the right time to maximize its damage. The colossus fires faster and is significantly more effective at the Reaver's job. It's also more durable and easier to get - something made so by the dominance of Robo play at this time.

To me, the Colossus is amongst the weakest links in all of Starcraft 2. It is this way because it fails to fill the void left behind by the Reaver. I am not saying to remove the Colossus and add back the Reaver - as much as that would please me greatly - but rather, the Colossus needs mechanics that make it as interesting and fun to use as the Reaver. The Colossus offers absolutely nothing to the game but takes away a great deal.

The Hellion is much the same way, virtually useless outside harassment. Without mines, the void of map control and geometric importance completely cripples Terran mech play. This problem is further compounded by the appearance of units with huge health pools and insane damage versus armored on top of Siege Tanks being overly expensive and left out on the buff tree outside of attack speed.

Even bionic play has been "dumbed down". Marauders have 125 health, can stim, can be healed, can slow, and do 10+10 damage to armored - a level of DPS in sc1 reserved only for upper-end units. This brings us to the Holy Trinity - Marauders, Roaches, and Immortals - units that have destroyed Starcraft 2's gameflow. Units I feel should be completely overhauled.

The reluctance of change.

Browder is a great man at PR but I've yet to see any indication of him being any good at game design. Although he boasts the willingness to add and remove units at a whim, we get answers like this -

Q: With the large discussion on Zerg changes, is there any planned? Or do you believe that they're not being used fully?
A: We are looking at changes to the Corruptor. We are looking at the balance on Ultralisk and Infestor. We are not planning to introduce new units at this time, though we shall see as Beta progresses. =)


While this is indeed a beta, as I well know, it seems to me that Blizzard from the start has been unwilling to make change where change is necessary. They have insisted to keep the Mothership in the game from the very beginning - doing absolutely everything in their power to keep this unit in multiplayer where it does not belong. This tells me that Blizzard is, in fact, unwilling to make change.

I could go on and on about how Starcraft 2's gameplay has disappointed me in so many ways. From the terrible and recycled map design to the Holy Trinity to geysers, I don't even know where to begin. It's not that I am not accustomed to change, it's that I feel much of the first game's splendor, openness, and dynamic has been lost. Due to the presence of exceedingly strong hard counters SC2 has become a game of rock-paper-scissors. Even worse is the bloated numbers. Browder's obsession with "Faster, More Intense!" has caused certain units to balloon to insane levels of health and damage, making the counter problem even worse and further degrading the value of terrain.

The removal of the ability to target units in your group with any kind of ability is one change that leaves me scratching my head in total confusion. The return of Infested Terrans in particular made me removed a few clumps of hair over the course of an hour, and the completely random changes to Templar tech have caused permanent hair loss entirely.

It is fairly obvious by now that Blizzard is constantly making internal patches we are told nothing about. As they have also failed to give any kind of reasoning behind their changes, I can only make wild guesses as to why Roaches and their cousins still remain the way they are.

I am of the minority when I say these things. I am one of only a handful of people who think this way. Yet, the game is still in beta, and two expansions that will be adding units await us. It took sc1 a long time to truly gain momentum. But I feel that if the game does not change dramatically that it we will see a remake of wc3 - custom maps will totally dominate the userbase. We'll get into that in a bit.

There are things in sc2 other than gameplay that drive me up the wall and across the ceiling.

Sound

Starcraft 2's voice acting overall is amongst the worst I have ever heard. That's saying a lot considering who I am and where I've been. I feel that I could assemble a team of voice actors from the modding community that could produce far better Protoss voices within a week. If we were being paid a tenth of what the Blizzard actors were being paid I could make them dance naked in the rain with mailmen to the beat of Slim Shady.

The fact is, is that Blizzard's sound design has been on a steady decline since Warcraft 3. 90% of WoW's acting is absolutely horrible with a few factors - the only ones they chose to hire that are actually actors - being good. It seems to me that many of Sc2's units are voiced by the exact same guy - particularly the Protoss. And we all know how awful the Zerg sound; that isn't acting, that's just inexperienced and awful sound engineers in general.




I've been told that even my experiments are commercial-quality level by fellow modders. I cannot speak highly of my voice acting because I have never been put on the pedestal to produce commercial-level acting, nor do I desire to ever do voice work for a published title. I have always and will always work for myself.

I have done voice acting for nearly 15 years, ever since I was just a child. When I first picked up computing amongst the first things I did was start figuring out how to digitalize my voice. I specialize largely in the voice acting of villains, demons, dragons, that sort of thing. But I've also voice acted Protoss and Zerg.

I force myself to adhere to a standard and level of quality I cannot possibly hope to obtain. Nothing I do is ever considered final. I am constantly redoing the same voice over and over searching for the absolute best diction and prose, the absolute best settings. Xul`Amon and The Great Destroyer are voices I have worked on for years.

The problem is of course that Blizzard depends on actors who are not actually actors but rather random employees. It's true that a few of Blizzard's employees make decent actors but the large majority of Protoss voices in sc2 make me cringe. It's not just the voices, but the writing itself. Metzen is one of the weakest writers in the industry (LOL THE ARTIFACTS ARE THE KEY TO THE END OF ALL THINGS), and whoever is writing the unit dialogue is not much better.

But it's okay. It's beta, right?

Oh, wait.

Q. Will there be any more voice acting changes for the units and such before the final release?
A. No, the actors are final, though we may choose different "takes" they did in the studio or change some of the processing on their audio.


This absolutely bamboozled me. I could not possibly understand how they think the Protoss acting is any good, but the Zerg are just unbelievable. Now, the majority of Zerg is not actual acting, but you'd think they'd mention that if they wanted it to be known. If the Zerg remain the way they are at release this will be truly horrible. They are uncomparable to any level of amateur or professional editing much less Starcraft 1 which, in my opinion, represents the absolute pinnacle of sound engineering and acting along with titles Beast Wars, infinity-engine games, and Reboot.

The more Blizzard talks about Starcraft 2 the more I wonder where the company I once knew had gone. The motto "It's finished when it's finished" seems to have been discarded aside.

But that's okay. I'm a gods-damned modder, and a voice actor. I never intended to play the campaign or melee anyway. To me, Starcraft 2 is just a playground. Pleased I was, then, when the editor finally appeared. At long last, a chance to see what it was I was going to be working with for many years to come.

The Editor

Immediately I was beset with how ugly the editor was. I am almost certain this editor is an early alpha and not the real thing. I cannot possibly fathom the Blizzard campaign team using this editor to make their campaign. That would be unbelievable.

Where can I possibly begin?

The problem with its editor is not its powerful, for it is indeed powerful. The problem lays within the interface. I had already been completely confounded by the decision to make battle.net 2.0 as grossly horrid as it currently is.

[image loading]

This is battle.net 0.5. Blizzard seems to think this bloated, wasteful interface is an improvement over wc3 which did not require you to scroll down to see the entire player list. The only improvement over sc1 in all of Battle.net 2.0 is that you can drag players around to change teams. There are no chat rooms, no Online Replays, and not much hope for seeing either before an expansion right now. We have yet to hear if chat rooms will come at all - the "group" system seems to hint that Blizzard is doing all they can to avoid adding them. Why?


But the editor is 10x as bad.

Even just the Terrain editor is weird and haphazard. It seems as though Blizzard ignored previous editors like Earth 2150, Neverwinter Nights 2, even Titan Quest. Starcraft 2's editor boasts -100 to +100 height levels but only three cliff levels, the map size is still restricted to 256x256 - a problem when Sc2's units and buildings are bigger than sc1 and utterly crippling for major mods or campaigns - and the actual tools leave a great deal to be desired.

[image loading]

My biggest gripes with terrain editing are the placement tool and water. You need multiple types of water for every height level, and the placement tool is nearly useless in determining how stuff is going to actually be placed. It is exceptionally difficult to make straight, symmetrical walls and water can only be placed in these big squares. On the bright side, you have a LOT of options to play with regarding water. It's just the interface that is bad.

[image loading]

This is the Titan Quest map editor. Note the placement gizmo but, more importantly, you can tell the editor how big the tool is on top of a height level that is not dependent on the water type itself. This is what sc2's editor needs to look like by release. Any less is simply laziness.

But, wait. Blizzard does not actually support their editor. All this talk about their editor and they do not communicate with modders nor do they physically support the editor itself.

Can't be that bad, though, right?

Enter the Data Editor. Blizzard's most hyped and overblown part of the toolset.

The Data Editor is the most disorganized, lazily arranged application I have ever seen in my entire life. Unit Name and Unit Description are on totally opposite ends of the list and, when you switch it to GUI mode, you are met with every developer's worst nightmare - this hideous mess.

[image loading]

Now, hold on. Let's take a step back and think back. What were we working with in Starcraft 1? Hint - it wasn't Staredit.

[image loading]

This is Datedit, the successor to Arsenal. Programmed by BroodKiller, this editor's interface has been perfected over years of community feedback and with my personal guiding hand. Note how clean and simple to use it is. Sections are divided by tabs and attributes are organized by relationship - unlike sc2, health and shields aren't separated by score options.

Yeah, sc2 has a lot more options. That's no reason for it to be as sloppy as it is.

[image loading]

Datedit unit flag editor. Looks simple, doesn't it? That's because it is. Anyone can jump into this editor and do whatever they want with it. Myself, an ancient modder, was immediately lost and confused in sc2's clusterfuck disaster. The prospect of making a project anywhere near the scale of what I'd been producing in previous games using this interface is overwhelmingly terrifying.

[image loading]

Datedit weapons.dat editor. The only problem any newbie has ever come to me regarding this editor is unexpected crashes from changing weapon behaviors from non-existent iscript headers on certain graphics. Something you'd be highly unlikely to encounter in sc2 seeing as you could turn ANYTHING into a weapon in wc3. Oh, wait. I've heard of people having problems with something as simple as making a new unit. Personally, when I duplicated a water entry it reset the duplicate's altered settings.

Sc2's editor looks powerful but I expect few major mods to ever be created, just like Warcraft 3. Did I mention that SC2's "mod" system is just a campaign editor like wc3? You can't actually make a real mod in Starcraft 2 without using external editors yet again. It seems to me that Blizzard doesn't even know what a mod really is - something that globally changes the entire game. But whatever, that's really easy to get past (replace patch mpq in latest version patch folder).

In any event, the data editor has left me without hope for any salvation. For years Blizzard has ignored all of my efforts to communicate with them and try to help them design the layout of their editor. Now I am met with this disaster and am asking myself, "What next?"

I do not like Sc2. I do not like what Blizzard has done to it. After we had worked so hard to establish standards and usable, good programs in Starcraft 1 and Diablo 2, Blizzard just throws us this in sc2. Their excuse for the terrible interface is "Making maps is a very technical job". Um, yeah.

I don't know what else there is I can say. I've used a lot of bad editors in my life, but few editors I've come across are this badly laid out. Maybe they'll fix it, but judging by Brett Wood's response with wc3 (who is lead for sc2's editor), I have serious doubts of major, necessary changes being made. I'm sure everyone will enjoy triggers and terrain just like they did with wc3. Just as I'm sure campaigns and mods will be very rare like wc3.

Flame on, brothers and sisters.

****
Zergneedsfood
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States10671 Posts
May 02 2010 19:42 GMT
#2
Wow....that was a long post.....

Didn't get through all of it, but I'm sure that no one should have the right to flame at the end of this point. Well reasoned.
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\ Make a contract with me and join TLADT | Onodera isn't actually a girl, she's just a doormat you walk over to get to the girl. - Numy 2015
Empyrean
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
16974 Posts
May 02 2010 19:53 GMT
#3
Definitely one of the better posts I've read in a while. I don't even know where to begin, but you bring up excellent points and it's at the very least worth a read.

I generally agree with you on mostly everything, though without the depth of experience you do in mapmaking/modding.
Moderator
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21242 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-02 20:00:11
May 02 2010 19:55 GMT
#4
Because Blizzard didn't cater to a niche group of players, it's a bad game?

LIke, sorry it didn't meet your standards, but you have to realize that your niche is not one that's of particular concern to Blizzard. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with this post.
TranslatorBaa!
n.DieJokes
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States3443 Posts
May 02 2010 19:58 GMT
#5
So isn't dataedit a rewrite of staredit? Why can't you just adjust the sc2 editor so it's nicely laid out?
MyLove + Your Love= Supa Love
Coulthard
Profile Joined September 2005
Greece3359 Posts
May 02 2010 20:00 GMT
#6
Epic post 5/5

On May 03 2010 04:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Because Blizzard didn't cater to a niche group of players, it's a bad game?

Yes
seRapH
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States9756 Posts
May 02 2010 20:00 GMT
#7
blizzard just wants you to buy the premium editor. and it sounds like you will, so from their perspective, they made the right call.

personally, i think its pretty much bullshit. we already paid for the game, the full power editor should come with it.
boomer hands
Piste
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
6174 Posts
May 02 2010 20:01 GMT
#8
this post is so long that I must believe you. sc2 must suck.
Navi
Profile Joined November 2009
5286 Posts
May 02 2010 20:01 GMT
#9
Wow, just finished reading all of it.

we should all be able to empathize on the sections concerning the reaver/collosus and the vulture / hellion, but this was an eye-opener into blizzard's haphazard effort concerning modding.

Someone should definitely link this to the blizzard team (if they would consider it at all).
Hey! Listen!
IskatuMesk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada969 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-02 20:04:14
May 02 2010 20:02 GMT
#10
On May 03 2010 04:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Because Blizzard didn't cater to a niche group of players, it's a bad game?

LIke, sorry it didn't meet your standards, but you have to realize that your niche is not one that's of particular concern to Blizzard. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with this post.


Just my thoughts. Nothing more. Take as you will. I am a niche, this is true, and I make up a vast minority. But I felt that I would speak anyway.

blizzard just wants you to buy the premium editor. and it sounds like you will, so from their perspective, they made the right call.


I have heard nothing of a premium editor and doubt such a thing will ever exist. As it stands right now I am not purchasing Starcraft 2 at all.


/edit

Datedit is totally made from scratch. Staredit is not a modding application and has no relation to what I do in Starcraft 1.
FastEddieV
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States614 Posts
May 02 2010 20:05 GMT
#11
Read it all. Don't know what to say as I haven't installed SC2. I'm dreading it because of thoughts regarding things you say. Sound is an important aspect to a game. Think about SC 1. If you hear "MY LIFE FOR AIUR". or the sound of zerglings popping or a siege tank firing, you know instantly what it is and it has an effect on you. What little I've heard of SC2 sounds makes me think dry, boring, uninspiring. I hope the music is decent at least.
platinum? more like leaf
IskatuMesk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada969 Posts
May 02 2010 20:10 GMT
#12
Music? Judge for yourself.

[url blocked]

pw - doacktacular

That contains all of the tracks from patch 9.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
May 02 2010 20:10 GMT
#13
Great post, I think it's critical that modders respond in this fashion because good mods will ensure an extended lifetime for sc2. I hope blizzard reads your posts and thinks about the issues you bring up without getting offended xD
posting on liquid sites in current year
Shade692003
Profile Joined August 2005
Canada702 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-02 20:12:57
May 02 2010 20:11 GMT
#14
Honestly, I couldn't wait for the Galaxy Editor. When we finally got it, and it was loading for the first time I remembered how I thought Warcraft3's editor was a complete buggy mess with a horrible layout. I couldn't wait for the Galaxy Editor because hey, Warcraft's 3's editor was made in the early 2000s (in development), alot of UI lessons were learned since then, like Web2.0 design (see: Bnet2, new Steam, Facebook, etc). Surely Blizzard learnt alot from Warcraft3. Not to say that the editor should have a UI like web 2.0, I'm saying people learned alot from UI design since the early 2000s.


I was shocked when it finished loading at how similar to Warcraft3 the layout was, and very dissapointed.
I hate the post below mine because it feels War3-ish.
IskatuMesk
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada969 Posts
May 02 2010 20:12 GMT
#15
On May 03 2010 05:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Great post, I think it's critical that modders respond in this fashion because good mods will ensure an extended lifetime for sc2. I hope blizzard reads your posts and thinks about the issues you bring up without getting offended xD


I already made a (much more polite, bullet-pointed) post on their forum about the subject of the editor. No response, of course.
deconduo
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Ireland4122 Posts
May 02 2010 20:15 GMT
#16
Oh man, age of wonders was such an amazing game, I loved it. Never played the sequels, just the original though.
Wurzelbrumpft
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Germany471 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-02 20:16:22
May 02 2010 20:16 GMT
#17
On May 03 2010 04:55 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Because Blizzard didn't cater to a niche group of players, it's a bad game?

LIke, sorry it didn't meet your standards, but you have to realize that your niche is not one that's of particular concern to Blizzard. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at with this post.


He addressed way more than just the editor. And i think his complaints are completely justified, dont you think a really shitty editor contributes to the "niche of players", your talking about, being so small?

I don't know crap about modding but i always enjoyed playing them. But the few wc3 mods around sucked ass and reading that the sc2 editor is even worse makes me a sad panda :[.
beam me up scotty, this planet suxX
Radical
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States481 Posts
May 02 2010 20:17 GMT
#18
Thank you for this insightful post. 5/5
unit
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2621 Posts
May 02 2010 20:17 GMT
#19
On May 03 2010 05:12 IskatuMesk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 03 2010 05:10 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Great post, I think it's critical that modders respond in this fashion because good mods will ensure an extended lifetime for sc2. I hope blizzard reads your posts and thinks about the issues you bring up without getting offended xD


I already made a (much more polite, bullet-pointed) post on their forum about the subject of the editor. No response, of course.


i never considered blizzard to be a company that would disregard the wishes of its customers until this sc2 beta...what happened to them that they are making sc2 like a command and conquer game...it LOOKS nice but it has so many glaring flaws that they claim are "fine" such as the high ground "oh it makes sense this way"-browder despite that its clearly broken and also the holy trinity and the entire hard counter system...they also have weakened units such as the archon to make them useless except in a handful of situations...what is blizzard doing i feel at this point as though a sc2 promod may actually be needed for the game to be truly successful and i dont want a split community that would result from that TT
Nemesis
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Canada2568 Posts
May 02 2010 20:18 GMT
#20
Damn that was a long post. You put depth into people's general concern about sc2, this is something that blizzard needs to read and listen to. If blizzard does not listen, then I think we can safely assume that blizzard does not want to make a great game, but only wants to make money of sc2.

Seriously when I heard the zerg 'voices', I was just like wtf is this? Gah enough ranting someone link this to blizzard.
Lee Young Ho fighting! KT P are just CHINTOSSTIC.
1 2 3 4 5 7 8 9 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
The PondCast
10:00
Episode 50
CranKy Ducklings60
Liquipedia
GSL Code S
09:30
Ro8 - Group B
Zoun vs herOLIVE!
Crank 407
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko444
Crank 407
Harstem 214
Hui .114
ProTech98
MindelVK 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Calm 14014
Hyuk 7398
Sea 3544
EffOrt 426
Mini 340
Stork 311
Last 225
Soulkey 217
Snow 162
Zeus 152
[ Show more ]
Light 127
TY 91
ToSsGirL 58
Pusan 56
hero 44
Barracks 39
Sea.KH 39
sas.Sziky 37
sorry 34
Nal_rA 33
sSak 32
Rush 29
Movie 29
JulyZerg 15
Icarus 15
HiyA 11
scan(afreeca) 11
IntoTheRainbow 11
SilentControl 7
Noble 5
zelot 4
ivOry 4
Dota 2
qojqva1575
XcaliburYe585
XaKoH 403
boxi98282
Fuzer 260
Counter-Strike
byalli166
edward66
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor175
Other Games
singsing2553
B2W.Neo1097
C9.Mang0572
crisheroes430
DeMusliM413
Mew2King144
ArmadaUGS54
Organizations
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Secondary Stream12328
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Airneanach6
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis5012
• Jankos1257
Other Games
• WagamamaTV153
Upcoming Events
OSC
8h 33m
Replay Cast
11h 33m
OSC
11h 33m
WardiTV Invitational
22h 33m
OSC
1d
Korean StarCraft League
1d 14h
SOOP
1d 20h
sOs vs Percival
CranKy Ducklings
1d 21h
WardiTV Invitational
1d 22h
Cheesadelphia
2 days
[ Show More ]
CSO Cup
2 days
GSL Code S
2 days
Rogue vs TBD
TBD vs GuMiho
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Wardi Open
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Replay Cast
4 days
RSL Revival
4 days
Cure vs Percival
ByuN vs Spirit
RSL Revival
5 days
herO vs sOs
Zoun vs Clem
Replay Cast
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Serral vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Season 17: Qualifier 2
BGE Stara Zagora 2025
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
2025 GSL S2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025
BLAST Open Spring 2025

Upcoming

Copa Latinoamericana 4
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.