|
I have been doing some philosophy about SC strategies, and I wondered what would be the simplest way to lead a beginner to victory.
Because, I suppose most of us will just watch Korean replays and copy the pros. It is arguably useful, because you learn to macro and become more mechanically efficient. You focus on BO and strategies to set you for a good long game where you beat your opponent slowly by gaining small margins of advantage each minute.
Now, I find a lot of new players get their ass kicked when they attempt anything like that, then they get discouraged.
I love spending time in the iCcup training program channel, give advice to new players, or receive from elders.
Lately, I met a Korean guy who was around 87-9 A-. I checked his match list, and most games up to B were around 5-8 minutes long, mostly playing as Protoss on Python.
Personally, I couldn't think of any cheese that would work so miraculously well to beat even B players under 8 minutes consistently, so I asked him to teach me.
They call it "Showbu" in Korea, which according to him roughly translates into all-in. He showed me his builds and I confess they are pretty hardcore. It is almost impossible to scout, and doesn't take much skills.
So my question is, what are some fun strategies that would work best based on skill level?
For example:
D- Protoss, could probably
PvP 2 gateway, or cannon rush, or cannon defend into fast DT.
In the other hand, they probably should avoid using reavers as they require a lot more skill. Even though you see reavers in almost every PvP at higher level.
PvT:
Fast DT, Proxy Zealot + Cannon rush, mass dragoon/speed lot
PvZ:
Cannon rush, 9/9 gate, triple gateway, mass zealot/archon
Avoid: Corsairs, Reavers, DA
I taught a friend of mine to do a slow lurker drop vs T or P, and do a double lair build vs T. She said it has worked really well, and she won every game she tried it.
I dont think I have ever seen a pro rep where someone goes double lair lurker drop, as a matter of fact, I think I am the only player who goes that... something I carried from my FMP days. =/
I would post a replay of myself, but I dont really have the BO down... Instead I will post a rep of FireBall attempting it, I think it was pretty successful despite getting rich.
Fireball is around D, opponent is D- I think t.t
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=34630
What are good strategies for players at:
D level?
C level?
B level?
A level?
Out of topic. I noticed there is a TIGER in LT
+ Show Spoiler +
In some other maps too, but LT looks more obvious since it was next to the ramp. 
I also saw a mad squirrel scientist in Paranoid Android, but couldnt find a larger version of map that wasnt protected 
hf
|
zomg a tiger!
i've never tried to teach new players cheese, only how to defend it. my philosophy was that its very counter-productive towards learning the game. but koreans i suppose think otherwise (as indicated by the hyungjoon show)
|
And the korean's BO was......?
|
On April 21 2010 09:55 3FFA wrote:
And the korean's BO was......?
|
what's the korean's ID on iccup?
|
All in builds shouldn't be difficult to scout unless you decide to just not play safe.
Any unscouted proxy/cheese with good micro can beat an A level player. Except  Tempest I guess
|
|
|
|
|
So what did the korean dude teach you ?
|
In pvp, pvz he goes 10/11 gateway (dont know why 11, he just does it), then proxy 2 more gateways later on. I haven't lost a single pvp/pvz when I do this.
In PvT he does the normal core build up to 15/17, when he hides his second pylon, stops probes and get 3 more gateways when the hidden citadel is almost out, then archives.
It allows to make precisely 4 dts instead of the regular 2 fast dts, followed by 4 dragoons.
I haven't won a single PvT with this yet, but I think it is my fault, I can definitely see the potential.
His name was Specialic, but he transferred before end of the season.
He said he would teach me show bu, but I needed to have some good background first otherwise it is useless.
|
The PvP one is really common, have never seen it PvZ but I guess it could work well. Relies quite a bit on having micro at least as good as your opponent though.
The PvT cheese is extremely effective, even if they wall-in you will tear it down easily. Even if they have a turret up, if they didn't make enough units and micro well they're still dead. Except you actually have to go gas first (before gateway) to get enough for the super fast DTs.
Also, the lost tiger, can't unsee it!
|
On April 21 2010 09:37 Leath wrote:Out of topic. I noticed there is a TIGER in LT + Show Spoiler +In some other maps too, but LT looks more obvious since it was next to the ramp. I also saw a mad squirrel scientist in Paranoid Android, but couldnt find a larger version of map that wasnt protected
I uploaded a higher resolution image of Paranoid Android to Liquipedia so here you go:
+ Show Spoiler [Map image] +
It's in 1024*1024. Is that large enough or do you need an even bigger image?
|
Sorry, need to be 1:1 scale to be able to see. It is very small.
But since you made an effort to get a large map image, it is only fair I make an effort to get the squirrel too lol
It is located by the top base natural expo:
![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/Sagess/amagadmadsquirrel.jpg)
A bit of a stretch but I cant unsee it T_T
|
|
|
So can You rank your cheese strategies in order of the best to the worst(chances to work/your ability to work)?
|
Mmm, Im not much of a cheeser. I feel I have a better chance to win playing straight up, because I have rather decent macro but poor micro. Im C level, and normally I make my way to my rank by playing normal games.
D level
PvZ
+ Show Spoiler +1) 10/12 gates, make probe cut and proxy 2 more gates at 25 2) 9/9 gates works really nice . 3) If I got forge and I scout hatch or 12 pool: -Cannon rush the hatchery -Make sure no drones came out -Expand -Mass cannon/Sair/Reaver the entire map + Show Spoiler +This may be a bit more complex than I make it seem.
You must be sure the Z did not see your probe. Hatchery has very small sight range when it is building, around 4 matrices. Also make sure to place your first cannon in a place that is out of the path of drones/lings. Lings specially have small sight range and will most likely not find your buildings.
So this works sometimes vs 9ol pool too, but you will have to get cannon in your nat and his at the same time. 4) If I scout 12 hatch before FE: 13 or 14 Nexus -15 gateway (x3) (no forge) -Pylon -15/17 first zealot 5) One base dragoons + reaver proved to be quite successful 6) One base citadel mass dt, works in maps that are hard to defend all fronts, like Gaia, Rush Hour, etc 7) FE, corsair, reaver, expo and mass carriers. Just use the corsairs to harass and reavers to defend. Using them all aggressively is really hard for new players. -Keep track of how many hydras Z has and make sure you have enough cannons/reavers to defend. -Beware of mass hydra drops -Try to take and island base soon -Carriers + Corsair have great mobility, if you can add a reaver drop to the attacks it is really hard for Z to defend properly. Works well in Python, LT, Andromeda, and other maps with island expos
PvT
+ Show Spoiler +
1) Cannon rush, depending on the map. If the Protoss is at 12oc in Destination, it is possible to make pylon (8) + forge (9) at bridge expo of the Terran, send a second probe to bridge, while the first one steals the gas.
From there, you can crawl up the cliff with cannons and prevent the Terran from collecting gas.
It is a bit hard to explain, but a lower ground cannon is impossible to stop and it will protect your higher ground ones.
Works in some other maps too.
2) Proxy Gateway + Forge
Any 2 players map almost begs for this.
It is so hard for Terrans to defend vs 2 gates into cannon rush.
Anyone who played Blood Bath knows about it.
Normally I go 9 gate, 10 forge. But 9/9 gate, or 10,12 gate, 21 forge is all good too.
3) Proxy DT
14 core
Hidden second pylon
Hidden citadel
Hidden porxy gateway
Hidden Archives
Depending how close you got your proxy, the Dark Templar will be at the terran base before mine is researched. Therefore, very effective.
4) Mix cannon trap into DT rush.
Just go gateway forge, and attempt to cannon the Terran inside his base, while I proceed to Dts.
This forces the Terran to go Siege Research before mines and usually ends up either losing to DTs or getting severely delayed.
5) Double gateway into DT
14 Core
15 Pylon
17 Gateway
17 Dragoon
When the first dragoon is out, the second gateway is ready and you will be able to pressure with 3 dragoons the Terran wall.
Instead of range, get a citadel
Again, the idea is to make the terran think his best move is to get Siege and defend vs mass dragoons when in reality you're going dts.
Normally I get 5 dragoons in total, then 2 zealots while the archives is building and 2 dts.
The zealots are pretty good at taking fire, diffusing mines, etc, while dragoons kill turrets and dts do the rest.
6) DT drop
Yes, DT just own D level Terrans no matter what.
Core, citadel, robo, archives, shuttle + 2 dts
7) DT + Reaver drop
Same as above, but you add a robo facility when the robo too. You can only make one dragoon to have the resources for this. In #6 you can make around 3 dragoons before your dts if I recall right.
I have never lost with this build, but I placed in #7 because it is obviously not easy to pull. You gotta be able to control your reaver/dt groups, using the reaver to snipe turrets and the dts to kill tanks and stuff that are threatening to the reaver.
PvP
+ Show Spoiler +
1) 10/12 Gateway + proxy 2 more gateways mass zealot2.
2) Cannon rush. Yes it works REALLY well.
Specially in destination if you are at 6 oclock, sending one of the first 4 probes towards opponent base allows you cannon behind his mineral lines.
Now, when any sane player scouts an empty protoss base they think it is proxy gateways and add more gates to respond... This is useless vs cannon rush. The opponent will soon lose control of his mineral line and by getting your second pylon next to your nexus you can defend your probes vs counter attacks.
I dont have any other cheeses in PvP. Fast DT dont work well for me at all, seems that people like to go for reaver/obs build too much, so usually they are prepared.
I dont play the other races much, when I have time I will post Z cheeses.
As terran I dont have any, just really fancy builds that works more often against me 
|
Thanks for sharing ! Let's showbu !
|
Thank you soooo much Leath! I just woke up 10minutes ago and I can tell you one more PvP cheese. On heart break(might be able to work in other MUs btw but I haven't tried it in PvZ/vT) you proxy 2 gate ways in the top/bottom middle expo(top if your on the 10/11 Main and bottom if on the 4/3 main)and then rush the opponent's army/base when its moving out(will probably work PvT even more). You need good game sense and timing to pull this off though. Also try to see if you can proxy your tech buildings with your gates if your going DT rush. This rarely fails when I time it correctly. Once you have observers you have to keep your opponent from seeing the proxy with their own. If you can manage to keep the opponent on their natural + his expo that doesn't block the back minerals you can actually build proxies in a LOT of expos and it really helps you win unless he/she is proxy gating him/her self. Then it just gets hilarious. You do of course build a forge/observatory to block DTs but other than that, this is the build! Man I can't wait to have this happen versus another proxy toss.
edit: and of course I'll be trying these 
|
On April 22 2010 04:33 Leath wrote:Sorry, need to be 1:1 scale to be able to see. It is very small. But since you made an effort to get a large map image, it is only fair I make an effort to get the squirrel too lol It is located by the top base natural expo: A bit of a stretch but I cant unsee it T_T
It's a beaver those are huge buck teeth.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v237/Sagess/amagadatiger.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images/4/4e/Paranoid_Android.jpg)
