• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:12
CEST 02:12
KST 09:12
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro4 Preview: Mirror Mirror4[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: Within Reach5[ASL22] Ro8 Preview: In A Tizzy11[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Holy Diver5[ASL22] Ro16 Preview: Rough Waters10
Community News
SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup10StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026)73Weekly Cups (Sept 21-27): herO and ByuN double2Weekly Cups (Sep 13-20): herO scores triple3BSL Season 2317
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.17 PTR Patch Notes (Sept 30, 2026) SC4ALL: II SC2 Complete Invited Player Lineup How do you feel about the mass reverts in the 5.0.17 PTR? Back to SC2 after 14 years - Protoss CTRL groups? October World Ranking: herO stays #1, ByuN returns
Tourneys
Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament 2026 GSTL Grand Finals Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) SC2 INu's Battles#21 [ 3-Days tournament ]
Strategy
[H] ZvP Mid-Late Game: Stalkers Collossi HT
Custom Maps
[M] (2) Sweltering Sands [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 546 Catch the Train The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 545 And Drops and Rifts Mutation # 544 Double Trouble
Brood War
General
Sagi.gg Launcher Released Fantasy returning? BSL Season 23 20-year-old Valorant player starting StarCraft Bot on ladder
Tourneys
[ASL22] Semifinal A [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [ASL22] Ro8 Day 4 2v2v2v2 Tournament
Strategy
Cliff Jump Revisited (1 in a 1000 strategy) Replay Review Process - What do you do? Simple Questions, Simple Answers
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread General RTS Discussion Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Total Annihilation Zero
Dota 2
Dota 2 Champions League Season 3 Begins April 25! Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Canadian Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread
Fan Clubs
Serral Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Diablo Animated Series on Netflix
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread MLB/Baseball 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
[ASL22] Ro4 Day1 Ticket Giv…
bITt.mAN
Escaping Into Video Games: G…
TrAiDoS
38 yo Retired SWE loo…
PurE)Rabbit-SF
Can Bots Beat Pros?? Starcr…
namkraft
[meme] I finally understa…
LUCKY_NOOB
Regacy Esports:Our Goa…
regacyesports
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 8273 users

Game designers hating SC2 - Page 3

Blogs > Phyre
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
March 06 2010 02:32 GMT
#41
On March 06 2010 09:58 LunarC wrote:
They don't seem to get that Starcraft strategies are crafted first then executed. It's like complaining that playing the piano is too hard because you have to hit all the notes correctly in REAL TIME (holy crap) and make it stylistically good too. You learn the build orders and general strategies first so you can execute them in real time, then you add modifications according to the situation.

Yes, I just compared playing the piano to playing Starcraft.

It is actually somewhat accurate of an analogy.

Except that sometimes you'll be in the middle of your Rachmaninoff 3 and suddenly have to switch to playing the Mephisto Waltz based on what the other guy is doing. The level of refinement though is certainly comparable.
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
March 06 2010 02:44 GMT
#42
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

See, it isn't that they want to take the real-time out of RTS games that's the problem. And it isn't that they're stupid enough to even say that that is the problem. The problem is that they simply put do not care to find out if their preconceived notions are actually congruent with the facts or not.

And this is an epidemic in the game designing community. They lack any systematic and objective way of understanding game design, so they jump from subjective impression ("I don't like X") to objectivity ("X is bad gameplay") without even noticing they've crossed an important line.

I personally hate rhythm games. They're awful. I can't stand them. They're basically Simon while playing music.

But I understand rhythm games. And if you strapped me down and forced me to sit down and design one, I would probably do a halfway decent job. And most important of all, if I had to design one, I would ask people about what they like. You know, collect actual information, rather than what I think I know.

It absolutely disgusts me to see game designers slacking off like this. So tied up in their own preconceived biases that they can't possibly fathom that there is more to RTS gameplay than they think.

The most important wisdom is knowing what you don't know. And these guys don't have that. Even worse, they believe that they do know, which means they make stupid statements like this.

I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way.


I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more RTS-style games with off-board unit production. Pure real-time tactics.

Now, they wouldn't be C&C or StarCraft or anything. But it would be interesting to see more of this style of play.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
China5098 Posts
March 06 2010 08:56 GMT
#43
i hate when noobs always try to make it sound like they are these genius master minds of combat/warfare strategy but the only limiting factor is their low apm.

this is such bullshit because real wars only happen ONCE and then it's over. there are a lot more other factors that affect a war like army morale, army size, weapons technology, training, positioning, access to supplies... etc.

this is a computer game where the game can be analyzed over and over again, where both players start off with the same resources (a few workers and a building) so of course "strategy" will be pretty much already decided for any serious player and most focus is on execution. in the real world, wars are RARELY fought by two parties of such similar strength. mostly it's one attacking and one defending.

if someone really wanted to compare their strategic abilities with someone else then they should
1) agree on a game
2) agree on maps to play
3) have a set amount of time to study the game (like a week) and both have access to the same amount of information

this way the players will both go into the game with no previous experience of the game and are playing on their ability to analyze the game and make some sort of a plan.
play the games, and then switch to another RTS game with the same rules.
THIS would be a much better way to compare strategic ability because they don't know what "the correct way to play" is and they don't know which units they are supposed to get etc.

UNTIL THEN any of this RTS talk "HURR DURR IM AN AMAZING STRATEGY GUY BUT HAS LOW APM LOL" is just pissing in the wind.
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
March 06 2010 09:31 GMT
#44
who cares
If you have to ask, you don't know.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66365 Posts
March 06 2010 09:55 GMT
#45
On March 06 2010 06:28 Adeny wrote:
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
Show nested quote +
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.

i lol'd so hard
POGGERS
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
March 06 2010 16:51 GMT
#46
On March 06 2010 11:44 NicolBolas wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

See, it isn't that they want to take the real-time out of RTS games that's the problem. And it isn't that they're stupid enough to even say that that is the problem. The problem is that they simply put do not care to find out if their preconceived notions are actually congruent with the facts or not.

And this is an epidemic in the game designing community. They lack any systematic and objective way of understanding game design, so they jump from subjective impression ("I don't like X") to objectivity ("X is bad gameplay") without even noticing they've crossed an important line.

I personally hate rhythm games. They're awful. I can't stand them. They're basically Simon while playing music.

But I understand rhythm games. And if you strapped me down and forced me to sit down and design one, I would probably do a halfway decent job. And most important of all, if I had to design one, I would ask people about what they like. You know, collect actual information, rather than what I think I know.

It absolutely disgusts me to see game designers slacking off like this. So tied up in their own preconceived biases that they can't possibly fathom that there is more to RTS gameplay than they think.

The most important wisdom is knowing what you don't know. And these guys don't have that. Even worse, they believe that they do know, which means they make stupid statements like this.

I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way.


I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more RTS-style games with off-board unit production. Pure real-time tactics.

Now, they wouldn't be C&C or StarCraft or anything. But it would be interesting to see more of this style of play.

are you the real nicol bolas?
posting on liquid sites in current year
MorningMusume11
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3490 Posts
March 06 2010 20:03 GMT
#47
On March 06 2010 11:12 Mastermind wrote:
I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way. lol


Except C&C isn't so much about the strategy aspect of the game, its about lmfao wtf imba units, corny storylines, and hiring really good looking ladies and bad ass guys to act out the characters in teh game.
ironchef
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Canada1350 Posts
March 06 2010 20:05 GMT
#48
Really did a game designer actually say those quotes? I can't tell it apart from random ignorant whining on the internet.

NO RUSH 20!
“Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also.” - Marcus Aurelius
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
March 06 2010 20:43 GMT
#49
The real problem with first person shooters is that you can shoot in the first person
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
March 06 2010 21:04 GMT
#50
On March 06 2010 11:44 NicolBolas wrote:
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

This is really important. There is no process to game design like there is a process for other kinds of products, it's just a hit and miss system. Brilliant people can score a hit much more often than a miss but for most designers, there's no process they can follow to make a good game; they put out games based on their preferences and hope the market takes to it rather than designing the game starting from the customer's interests. It's called product out vs market in thinking. It's like the difference between Miyamoto and Molyneux. Molyneux has scored some hits trying to guess what people want, but he also comes up short a lot because he listens to what he thinks people want, not to the market itself.

As an artist, that's obviously ok. As someone trying to make a fun game, it isn't.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Energies
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Australia3225 Posts
March 06 2010 23:55 GMT
#51
On March 07 2010 01:51 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2010 11:44 NicolBolas wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

See, it isn't that they want to take the real-time out of RTS games that's the problem. And it isn't that they're stupid enough to even say that that is the problem. The problem is that they simply put do not care to find out if their preconceived notions are actually congruent with the facts or not.

And this is an epidemic in the game designing community. They lack any systematic and objective way of understanding game design, so they jump from subjective impression ("I don't like X") to objectivity ("X is bad gameplay") without even noticing they've crossed an important line.

I personally hate rhythm games. They're awful. I can't stand them. They're basically Simon while playing music.

But I understand rhythm games. And if you strapped me down and forced me to sit down and design one, I would probably do a halfway decent job. And most important of all, if I had to design one, I would ask people about what they like. You know, collect actual information, rather than what I think I know.

It absolutely disgusts me to see game designers slacking off like this. So tied up in their own preconceived biases that they can't possibly fathom that there is more to RTS gameplay than they think.

The most important wisdom is knowing what you don't know. And these guys don't have that. Even worse, they believe that they do know, which means they make stupid statements like this.

I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way.


I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more RTS-style games with off-board unit production. Pure real-time tactics.

Now, they wouldn't be C&C or StarCraft or anything. But it would be interesting to see more of this style of play.

are you the real nicol bolas?


Is he a real dragon?
"Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but dont nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight" - Ronnie Coleman.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21247 Posts
March 07 2010 00:04 GMT
#52
On March 07 2010 05:03 MorningMusume11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2010 11:12 Mastermind wrote:
I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way. lol


Except C&C isn't so much about the strategy aspect of the game, its about lmfao wtf imba units, corny storylines, and hiring really good looking ladies and bad ass guys to act out the characters in teh game.


And that's why I love CnC and RA =P
TranslatorBaa!
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Replay Cast
23:00
QMC Community Tournament 1
CranKy Ducklings54
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nathanias 141
SpeCial 121
CosmosSc2 55
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 1447
Rain 1266
Artosis 623
910 55
Bale 12
Dota 2
NeuroSwarm118
League of Legends
Doublelift3240
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox188
Other Games
summit1g9620
shahzam567
JimRising 365
C9.Mang0349
PiGStarcraft255
Maynarde125
Vindicta9
Liquid`Ken5
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick822
BasetradeTV193
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream25
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Hupsaiya 114
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP55
• davetesta23
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21388
Other Games
• imaqtpie841
• Shiphtur199
Upcoming Events
Afreeca Starleague
9h 48m
Soma vs Soulkey
INu's Battles
10h 48m
SHIN vs Cure
ByuN vs Zoun
PiGosaur Cup
23h 48m
Patches Events
1d 15h
The PondCast
2 days
INu's Battles
2 days
Percival vs TBD
TBD vs herO
OSC
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
OSC
3 days
BSL: Ladder Tournament
4 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
Patches Events
5 days
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
BSL Open Qualifier
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Copium Cup

Ongoing

ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - GSB
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual

Upcoming

Acropolis #5 - GSC
BSL Season 23
SC4ALL II: Brood War
BSL 23: Non-Korean Championship
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
HCC Season 3
eXTREMESLAND 2026
PGL Major Singapore 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 6
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.