• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 02:25
CEST 08:25
KST 15:25
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Season 1 - Final Week0[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall10HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0
Community News
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation12$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced6Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles6[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China9Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66
StarCraft 2
General
Firefly given lifetime ban by ESIC following match-fixing investigation RSL Season 1 - Final Week The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation TL Team Map Contest #4: Winners Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles
Tourneys
$25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ [G] Progamer Settings ASL20 Preliminary Maps [ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China [BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Positive Thoughts on Setting Up a Dual-Caliber FX
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Summer Games Done Quick 2025! US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 588 users

Game designers hating SC2

Blogs > Phyre
Post a Reply
Normal
Phyre
Profile Blog Joined December 2006
United States1288 Posts
March 05 2010 21:12 GMT
#1
I don't know why I always find it so entertaining to read people's explanations of why they dislike RTS's or Starcraft specifically for it's speed requirement and lack of "real strategy." Lots of game designers in particular seem to be guilty of being noobs in this respect.

See the comments to this article for some laughs:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/27450/CC4_Designer_StarCraft_II_A_Boon_To_RTS_Genre.php

Some samples:

The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time. This means that strategic thinking isn't what is rewarded but fast "micro". The faster you can input commands, the better you do. What does that have to do with strategy? It's a broken gameplay model, in my view. They should return to some more classic wargames to figure out what works.

To me the RTS genre died a while ago. It think it stems from the fact I hate the multiplayer aspects of it and the single player AI is just horrible to play against. It is rarely about what you build and instead about how fast you build it, then you can add in the strategy of building the most effective unit for the job. But you usually only know what to build by trail and error and memorizing what the AI is going to do.

...


****
"Oh no, I got you with your pants... on your face... That's not how you wear pants." - Nintu, catching 1 hatch lurks.
blabber
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States4448 Posts
March 05 2010 21:16 GMT
#2
they're just sad they don't work at Blizzard working on the best RTS games in the world
blabberrrrr
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
March 05 2010 21:21 GMT
#3
On March 06 2010 06:16 blabber wrote:
they're just sad they don't work at Blizzard working on the best RTS games in the world

They're sad because Dustin Browder got out of EA and they weren't so lucky.
Moderator
Eben
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States769 Posts
March 05 2010 21:21 GMT
#4
what baddies
Polar_Nada
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States1548 Posts
March 05 2010 21:24 GMT
#5
those noobs disgust me =)
[ReD]NaDa and fnaticMSI.SEn fighting~! ::POlar @ UC Irvine::
Adeny
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway1233 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 21:30:14
March 05 2010 21:28 GMT
#6
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.
Boblion
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
France8043 Posts
March 05 2010 21:34 GMT
#7
Sirlin: The Clone War.
fuck all those elitists brb watching streams of elite players.
-fj.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Samoa462 Posts
March 05 2010 21:36 GMT
#8
lol.... all the devvies that I know would hate sc2 for the DRM, not the game itself.
IceCube
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Croatia1403 Posts
March 05 2010 21:41 GMT
#9
On March 06 2010 06:28 Adeny wrote:
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
Show nested quote +
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.

This quote alone made me not to read the whole thing.
Thank you Adeny for posting this. One quote to rule them all...

How people can be so stupid in their own line of work is beyond me.
Forever Vulture.. :(
Zapdos_Smithh
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Canada2620 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 21:43:04
March 05 2010 21:41 GMT
#10
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-05 21:45:28
March 05 2010 21:44 GMT
#11
I love the 'fast clicking' argument. Because I imagine a dinosauresque 70 year old man slowly pressing one key distinctly at a time, and then raging when losing to a 16-month infant slamming the keyboard as hard and fast as he can.
Moderator
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
March 05 2010 21:45 GMT
#12
I think they don't understand that StarCraft II is a combination between mechanics and strategy. It's not just how well you can think of a strategy, but how well you execute it as well. Somehow, the superfast clicking and tapping is what further engrosses us into the game, but not everyone can get on to that interest.

Also they're just bitter that StarCraft is the only RTS worth playing =P
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Chill
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Calgary25980 Posts
March 05 2010 21:46 GMT
#13
On March 06 2010 06:28 Adeny wrote:
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
Show nested quote +
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.

hahaha awesome! my new sig
Moderator
leetchaos
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States395 Posts
March 05 2010 21:48 GMT
#14
Good thing Starcraft isn't a Strategy game. Thats kinda what the RT is for lol
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21242 Posts
March 05 2010 22:02 GMT
#15
On March 06 2010 06:28 Adeny wrote:
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
Show nested quote +
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.


I haven't laughed this hard in a long, long time.
TranslatorBaa!
Saturnize
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States2473 Posts
March 05 2010 22:11 GMT
#16
lol just lol
"Time to put the mustard on the hotdog. -_-"
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
March 05 2010 22:14 GMT
#17
Lmao. i don't even know where to start with this....
Myrmidon
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States9452 Posts
March 05 2010 22:26 GMT
#18
Well to be fair, it's just an attack on the premise of a genre, that real-time strategy games should not exist because non-real-time strategy is inherently better and/or more strategical.

On a slightly less extreme end, there are game designers out there that understand RTS mechanics, time management, and game flow, and still think that execution should be lowered where possible (to create a better competitive game, not just to be noob-friendly).

(Not that I agree, lol.)
yariza
Profile Joined February 2010
United States28 Posts
March 05 2010 22:27 GMT
#19
They should just "Face Palm" themselves.. -.-
You can never do too much of anything expect everything...
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
March 05 2010 22:31 GMT
#20
Oh my god... Those comments. Like, imo FPS are pretty redundant (like how is one CoD different form the rest? I sure have no clue, or how are they different from counterstrike for that matter?)

I don't diss them, I just choose not to play them because I don't find them that fun.
Kim_Hyun_Han
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
706 Posts
March 05 2010 22:35 GMT
#21
lol whathefucK?
Kenpachi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States9908 Posts
March 05 2010 22:35 GMT
#22
On March 06 2010 06:46 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2010 06:28 Adeny wrote:
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.

hahaha awesome! my new sig

LOL
Nada's body is South Korea's greatest weapon.
The6357
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
United States1268 Posts
March 05 2010 22:37 GMT
#23
lol they have a point while missing a point...the reason why starcraft is so great is because both the strategy and timing(building fast) need to be executed perfectly to be efficient. If rts is focused only on strategy...why don't we just play strategical board games like...umm i cannot remember any..fuck..
2010 worldcup!! corea fighting!!!
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
March 05 2010 22:48 GMT
#24
I wonder what they think about timed chess.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
G_G
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Canada178 Posts
March 05 2010 23:18 GMT
#25
The basic problem with flight simulators is that they simulate flight, and I don't like that so it's a problem with the genre.

The basic problem with platform games is that you have to jump, and I don't like that so it's a problem with the genre.

The basic problem with shooting games is that you shoot things, and I don't like that so it's a problem genre.

...

When will people realize that Starcraft is in a separate RTS sub-genre. You don't see Burnout fans screaming: "I need to change gears and tweak my car in Forza? So new players need to learn all this stuff just to compete? It would be so much better if they took that stuff out so we could just focus on the racing aspect without having to grind out learning all these complicated things. A racing line? That's just muscle memory and memorization! Where's the skill in that? It just takes the fun out of it all, what a lame game."

The game is designed in the exact opposite way that you would have liked? Could that possibly mean that you're not their target audience?
Raelcun
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States3747 Posts
March 05 2010 23:19 GMT
#26
Hahah I almost pissed myself laughing first at the OP then the replies. You guys are why I love TL.
FragKrag
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
United States11552 Posts
March 05 2010 23:26 GMT
#27
oh god what terrible criticisms... -_______-
*TL CJ Entusman #40* "like scissors does anything to paper except MAKE IT MORE NUMEROUS" -paper
Zurles
Profile Joined February 2009
United Kingdom1659 Posts
March 05 2010 23:34 GMT
#28
dear lord.
deL
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Australia5540 Posts
March 05 2010 23:44 GMT
#29
Wow faith in humanity took a bit of a dip there. This is a special kind of stupid.
Gaming videos for fun ~ http://www.youtube.com/user/WijLopenLos
Reason
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United Kingdom2770 Posts
March 05 2010 23:53 GMT
#30
On March 06 2010 06:28 Adeny wrote:
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
Show nested quote +
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.




LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL MY GOD



I laughed so hard at this.
Speak properly, and in as few words as you can, but always plainly; for the end of speech is not ostentation, but to be understood.
Navane
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Netherlands2748 Posts
March 05 2010 23:57 GMT
#31

Joshua McDonald | 5 Mar 2010 at 10:59 am PST

Tim, you don't believe that thinking quickly is one aspect of strategy? That's like saying that timed chess games have no strategy.

In real combat, victory doesn't just go to the person who can think of the best tactics but the one that can think of them the most quickly. Yes, super-fast click skill is highly valuable in an RTS, and you need it to some degree to handle an initial rush, but if you have no strategy, you'll only get so far. There's enormous tactical depth for somebody who really takes the time to learn the game.

Besides, whether you like the genre or not, it's hard to make a case that a game that sold over 10 million copies and is still heavily played 11 years later has a "broken gameplay model".
writer22816
Profile Blog Joined September 2008
United States5775 Posts
March 06 2010 00:03 GMT
#32
But you usually only know what to build by trail and error and memorizing what the AI is going to do.


they can't even beat an AI straight up, lmao

these people need to get their heads out of their asses and just realize that a) they suck and b) they don't know what they're talking about
8/4/12 never forget, never forgive.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
March 06 2010 00:03 GMT
#33
The problem with the internet is that the person giving their dumbass opinion can't see everyone's eyes rolling.

Might as well be reading what people think of certain flavours of jello. Actually a better comparison is to look up reviews of your favourite alcoholic drink and read opinions of people who didn't like it, then analyse your reaction.

Some people like a little bite. Some people are pansies
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
March 06 2010 00:27 GMT
#34
meh, you can see their arguments from a casual perspective. Seems kind of a silly thing to do though, passing judgement on something you know nothing about.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8088 Posts
March 06 2010 00:29 GMT
#35
i sorta hope this is a wakeup call to some people who dont realize just how fucking hardcore RTSs are nowadays. even the simpler ones are far too complicated for your average joe videogame buyer. I really dont think SC2 will be quite as big as some people think it will.
Free Palestine
LunarC
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States1186 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-06 01:00:27
March 06 2010 00:58 GMT
#36
They don't seem to get that Starcraft strategies are crafted first then executed. It's like complaining that playing the piano is too hard because you have to hit all the notes correctly in REAL TIME (holy crap) and make it stylistically good too. You learn the build orders and general strategies first so you can execute them in real time, then you add modifications according to the situation.

Yes, I just compared playing the piano to playing Starcraft.
REEBUH!!!
Archon_Wing
Profile Joined May 2004
United States378 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-06 01:30:56
March 06 2010 01:30 GMT
#37
Last thing I heard inaction is a pretty bad strategy. It is not enough to think of something; doing is what matters. Otherwise we'd all be millionares

What they thought they gave were reasons. All we see are excuses.
Nothing witty here atm
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17245 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-03-06 01:31:41
March 06 2010 01:30 GMT
#38
I guess their view on some things is a bit different than the reality...
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Durak
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Canada3684 Posts
March 06 2010 01:49 GMT
#39
On March 06 2010 07:48 Jibba wrote:
I wonder what they think about timed chess.


I think this is a brilliant analogy. I hadn't thought of using timed chess as an analogy for RTS games, which is strange because StarCraft is often jokingly referred to as "Korean chess."
Mastermind
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
Canada7096 Posts
March 06 2010 02:12 GMT
#40
I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way. lol
d3_crescentia
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4054 Posts
March 06 2010 02:32 GMT
#41
On March 06 2010 09:58 LunarC wrote:
They don't seem to get that Starcraft strategies are crafted first then executed. It's like complaining that playing the piano is too hard because you have to hit all the notes correctly in REAL TIME (holy crap) and make it stylistically good too. You learn the build orders and general strategies first so you can execute them in real time, then you add modifications according to the situation.

Yes, I just compared playing the piano to playing Starcraft.

It is actually somewhat accurate of an analogy.

Except that sometimes you'll be in the middle of your Rachmaninoff 3 and suddenly have to switch to playing the Mephisto Waltz based on what the other guy is doing. The level of refinement though is certainly comparable.
once, not long ago, there was a moon here
NicolBolas
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States1388 Posts
March 06 2010 02:44 GMT
#42
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

See, it isn't that they want to take the real-time out of RTS games that's the problem. And it isn't that they're stupid enough to even say that that is the problem. The problem is that they simply put do not care to find out if their preconceived notions are actually congruent with the facts or not.

And this is an epidemic in the game designing community. They lack any systematic and objective way of understanding game design, so they jump from subjective impression ("I don't like X") to objectivity ("X is bad gameplay") without even noticing they've crossed an important line.

I personally hate rhythm games. They're awful. I can't stand them. They're basically Simon while playing music.

But I understand rhythm games. And if you strapped me down and forced me to sit down and design one, I would probably do a halfway decent job. And most important of all, if I had to design one, I would ask people about what they like. You know, collect actual information, rather than what I think I know.

It absolutely disgusts me to see game designers slacking off like this. So tied up in their own preconceived biases that they can't possibly fathom that there is more to RTS gameplay than they think.

The most important wisdom is knowing what you don't know. And these guys don't have that. Even worse, they believe that they do know, which means they make stupid statements like this.

I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way.


I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more RTS-style games with off-board unit production. Pure real-time tactics.

Now, they wouldn't be C&C or StarCraft or anything. But it would be interesting to see more of this style of play.
So you know, cats are interesting. They are kind of like girls. If they come up and talk to you, it's great. But if you try to talk to them, it doesn't always go so well. - Shigeru Miyamoto
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
China5094 Posts
March 06 2010 08:56 GMT
#43
i hate when noobs always try to make it sound like they are these genius master minds of combat/warfare strategy but the only limiting factor is their low apm.

this is such bullshit because real wars only happen ONCE and then it's over. there are a lot more other factors that affect a war like army morale, army size, weapons technology, training, positioning, access to supplies... etc.

this is a computer game where the game can be analyzed over and over again, where both players start off with the same resources (a few workers and a building) so of course "strategy" will be pretty much already decided for any serious player and most focus is on execution. in the real world, wars are RARELY fought by two parties of such similar strength. mostly it's one attacking and one defending.

if someone really wanted to compare their strategic abilities with someone else then they should
1) agree on a game
2) agree on maps to play
3) have a set amount of time to study the game (like a week) and both have access to the same amount of information

this way the players will both go into the game with no previous experience of the game and are playing on their ability to analyze the game and make some sort of a plan.
play the games, and then switch to another RTS game with the same rules.
THIS would be a much better way to compare strategic ability because they don't know what "the correct way to play" is and they don't know which units they are supposed to get etc.

UNTIL THEN any of this RTS talk "HURR DURR IM AN AMAZING STRATEGY GUY BUT HAS LOW APM LOL" is just pissing in the wind.
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
JohannesH
Profile Joined September 2009
Finland1364 Posts
March 06 2010 09:31 GMT
#44
who cares
If you have to ask, you don't know.
konadora *
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
Singapore66158 Posts
March 06 2010 09:55 GMT
#45
On March 06 2010 06:28 Adeny wrote:
They need to flip out a fucking dictionary and look up "REAL TIME", you know, as in... "REAL TIME STRATEGY".

Look at this shit...
Show nested quote +
The basic problem with RTS is that you can build units in real-time.

i lol'd so hard
POGGERS
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
March 06 2010 16:51 GMT
#46
On March 06 2010 11:44 NicolBolas wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

See, it isn't that they want to take the real-time out of RTS games that's the problem. And it isn't that they're stupid enough to even say that that is the problem. The problem is that they simply put do not care to find out if their preconceived notions are actually congruent with the facts or not.

And this is an epidemic in the game designing community. They lack any systematic and objective way of understanding game design, so they jump from subjective impression ("I don't like X") to objectivity ("X is bad gameplay") without even noticing they've crossed an important line.

I personally hate rhythm games. They're awful. I can't stand them. They're basically Simon while playing music.

But I understand rhythm games. And if you strapped me down and forced me to sit down and design one, I would probably do a halfway decent job. And most important of all, if I had to design one, I would ask people about what they like. You know, collect actual information, rather than what I think I know.

It absolutely disgusts me to see game designers slacking off like this. So tied up in their own preconceived biases that they can't possibly fathom that there is more to RTS gameplay than they think.

The most important wisdom is knowing what you don't know. And these guys don't have that. Even worse, they believe that they do know, which means they make stupid statements like this.

I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way.


I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more RTS-style games with off-board unit production. Pure real-time tactics.

Now, they wouldn't be C&C or StarCraft or anything. But it would be interesting to see more of this style of play.

are you the real nicol bolas?
posting on liquid sites in current year
MorningMusume11
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States3490 Posts
March 06 2010 20:03 GMT
#47
On March 06 2010 11:12 Mastermind wrote:
I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way. lol


Except C&C isn't so much about the strategy aspect of the game, its about lmfao wtf imba units, corny storylines, and hiring really good looking ladies and bad ass guys to act out the characters in teh game.
ironchef
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Canada1350 Posts
March 06 2010 20:05 GMT
#48
Really did a game designer actually say those quotes? I can't tell it apart from random ignorant whining on the internet.

NO RUSH 20!
“Because your own strength is unequal to the task, do not assume that it is beyond the powers of man; but if anything is within the powers and province of man, believe that it is within your own compass also.” - Marcus Aurelius
floor exercise
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Canada5847 Posts
March 06 2010 20:43 GMT
#49
The real problem with first person shooters is that you can shoot in the first person
Jibba
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States22883 Posts
March 06 2010 21:04 GMT
#50
On March 06 2010 11:44 NicolBolas wrote:
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

This is really important. There is no process to game design like there is a process for other kinds of products, it's just a hit and miss system. Brilliant people can score a hit much more often than a miss but for most designers, there's no process they can follow to make a good game; they put out games based on their preferences and hope the market takes to it rather than designing the game starting from the customer's interests. It's called product out vs market in thinking. It's like the difference between Miyamoto and Molyneux. Molyneux has scored some hits trying to guess what people want, but he also comes up short a lot because he listens to what he thinks people want, not to the market itself.

As an artist, that's obviously ok. As someone trying to make a fun game, it isn't.
ModeratorNow I'm distant, dark in this anthrobeat
Energies
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Australia3225 Posts
March 06 2010 23:55 GMT
#51
On March 07 2010 01:51 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2010 11:44 NicolBolas wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I think you're all misunderstanding the sin of these game designers.

Their sin is not disliking RTS's. It isn't disliking RTS's for specious reasons like being real-time. As silly as it sounds, I can understand that point. Their sin isn't even not understanding RTS games; not everyone should understand every genre of games.

Their sin is pride, pure and simple. The sin from which all others flow.

If you see a group of people who are playing a particular genre of game, and you look upon that genre with disdain, that's your right. That's fine. However, if you're a game designer, who's job it is to understand gameplay, it is your duty to understand gameplay in all its myriad shapes and splendor. Even the ones you don't like. Especially those.

It is the very height of arrogance for a game designer to say that your gameplay is objectively wrong without being able to back that up with facts. For a game designer to conclude that some gameplay is wrong, they will need evidence. Facts and reasonable conclusions and inferences based on those facts. This body of evidence must include a detailed understanding of what it is that people actually like about that gameplay. Without this, you simply cannot draw that kind of conclusion and be intellectually honest.

See, it isn't that they want to take the real-time out of RTS games that's the problem. And it isn't that they're stupid enough to even say that that is the problem. The problem is that they simply put do not care to find out if their preconceived notions are actually congruent with the facts or not.

And this is an epidemic in the game designing community. They lack any systematic and objective way of understanding game design, so they jump from subjective impression ("I don't like X") to objectivity ("X is bad gameplay") without even noticing they've crossed an important line.

I personally hate rhythm games. They're awful. I can't stand them. They're basically Simon while playing music.

But I understand rhythm games. And if you strapped me down and forced me to sit down and design one, I would probably do a halfway decent job. And most important of all, if I had to design one, I would ask people about what they like. You know, collect actual information, rather than what I think I know.

It absolutely disgusts me to see game designers slacking off like this. So tied up in their own preconceived biases that they can't possibly fathom that there is more to RTS gameplay than they think.

The most important wisdom is knowing what you don't know. And these guys don't have that. Even worse, they believe that they do know, which means they make stupid statements like this.

I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way.


I honestly wouldn't mind seeing more RTS-style games with off-board unit production. Pure real-time tactics.

Now, they wouldn't be C&C or StarCraft or anything. But it would be interesting to see more of this style of play.

are you the real nicol bolas?


Is he a real dragon?
"Everybody wanna be a bodybuilder but dont nobody wanna lift no heavy ass weight" - Ronnie Coleman.
Carnivorous Sheep
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Baa?21242 Posts
March 07 2010 00:04 GMT
#52
On March 07 2010 05:03 MorningMusume11 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2010 11:12 Mastermind wrote:
I can only imagine how bad of a game C&C4 is if the people who made it think of RTS this way. lol


Except C&C isn't so much about the strategy aspect of the game, its about lmfao wtf imba units, corny storylines, and hiring really good looking ladies and bad ass guys to act out the characters in teh game.


And that's why I love CnC and RA =P
TranslatorBaa!
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 3h 35m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 223
StarCraft: Brood War
Leta 271
Noble 129
PianO 104
Bale 24
JulyZerg 12
Dota 2
ODPixel220
NeuroSwarm93
League of Legends
JimRising 738
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor103
Other Games
summit1g8699
Stewie2K895
shahzam775
monkeys_forever438
SortOf62
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick38137
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH365
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• tankgirl 1
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• lizZardDota237
League of Legends
• Lourlo1305
• Stunt578
Upcoming Events
RSL Revival
3h 35m
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
OSC
6h 35m
Replay Cast
17h 35m
RSL Revival
1d 3h
Classic vs Cure
FEL
1d 9h
OSC
1d 13h
RSL Revival
2 days
FEL
2 days
FEL
2 days
CSO Cup
2 days
[ Show More ]
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
2 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
RSL Revival
3 days
FEL
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Replay Cast
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2025-07-07
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
CSL Xiamen Invitational: ShowMatche
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Underdog Cup #2
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.