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On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 06:56 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 06 2010 06:43 n3m0 wrote:On January 06 2010 06:30 Pokebunny wrote:On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote:
In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion. People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different? On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote:
I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork. I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people. You got a point there... Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson. I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous. If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person. I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10. You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right? oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft? First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea.. So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
Then obviously the problem you have is with how much value people are putting on StarCraft. Not any of the other crap you decided to talk about. Everyone has their own standard of values, there's nothing to talk about here.
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That's the point... you can't tell other people that $10 isn't worth it because to many people it is.
And the same applies to everything else as well. There are famous guitarists who are self-taught (like Marty Friedman... his picking style is fucked up). But having someone teach you is almost always faster and more efficient.
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On January 06 2010 08:12 HuskyTheHusky wrote:
Hey Inc, thanks for this thread, I love the idiots that keep bashing you for what you're doing. It is highly entertaining as well as being a good service to the community.
People dont realize how much time out of your day it takes. You simply cant do everything for free. If I helped even half the people who asked ME for it I'd have no free time. I can only imagine how it would be for someone who is actually decent at the game.
Regardless, keep it up.
You clearly haven't had the decency of reading the whole blog before calling me an idiot..
Otherwise you would have noticed I'm just sharing my opinion and stating some interesting facts.
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On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 06:56 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 06 2010 06:43 n3m0 wrote:On January 06 2010 06:30 Pokebunny wrote:On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote:
In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion. People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different? On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote:
I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork. I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people. You got a point there... Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson. I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous. If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person. I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10. You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right? oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft? First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea.. So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
What is the difference between a Starcraft teacher and a language teacher? They both teach you 1 on 1. You don't need to be a English Major to teach someone who has no or little experience of the language (like D- or C starcraft players) but InControll is a Top Starcraft player. So why can't Inc train players in Starcraft for something as small as 10$? I definitely thing he should be charging more.
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Lolz.
I think it's pretty ridiculous that people are still arguing about this. HONESTLY, who CARES if $10 is too high or too low, if the whole "SC Lessons for pay" is ethically right or wrong in this kind of community. He didn't start up this service nor post this thread so we can all argue about it. Obviously, this "update 3" is here because his services has been of use to some individuals, and he's posting this offer up again for some more potential clients.
Personally, I wouldn't pay $10/hour, nor any amount of money, to be taught how to play a game. But that's just me, and even with that, I don't see any problem with him offering his services for pay. No need, AT ALL, to compare his fee with other professional fees from different services. He set the price he wants, and there ARE people that are being taught by him. His customer reviews shows that it's working for the people that want it.
Just get off his ass already and go raid another blog
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On January 06 2010 08:15 n3m0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 08:12 HuskyTheHusky wrote:
Hey Inc, thanks for this thread, I love the idiots that keep bashing you for what you're doing. It is highly entertaining as well as being a good service to the community.
People dont realize how much time out of your day it takes. You simply cant do everything for free. If I helped even half the people who asked ME for it I'd have no free time. I can only imagine how it would be for someone who is actually decent at the game.
Regardless, keep it up. You clearly haven't had the decency of reading the whole blog before calling me an idiot.. Otherwise you would have noticed I'm just sharing my opinion and stating some interesting facts.
Right, right. I'll just share my opinion here:
You're an idiot.
Sadly, it's not very interesting.
It's better to be clear about things than to use backhanded insults like "Paying $10/hr for Starcraft lessons is a scam."
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Braavos36401 Posts
On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 06:56 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 06 2010 06:43 n3m0 wrote:On January 06 2010 06:30 Pokebunny wrote:On January 06 2010 05:31 Tenryu wrote:
In my personal opinion, $10/hour is alot and i find it ridicolous people are comparing the prices of tutoring for Billiards/Poker with BW. The average player definetly earns more money playing Billiards/Poker and will definitely win their money back. As in BW however, its a one-way ticket. Only thing your getting back is an improvement on the game. Which is fine, however, be realistic. Your definetly going to have to pay for more then 1 lesson, no matter how good the teacher 1 or even 10 hours of lessons wont turn a D player into a B player in a span of weeks. BW is difficult in ways and takes definitely alot of hours to learn and properly execute.
But if someone is willing to $10/hour then its up to them. I dont care, just wanted to voice my opinion on all the tutoring shit going around.
And before i get flamed, i'll like to add this is post is just about the whole $$ for lesson scene going around in BW. I am in no way talking negatively bout Incontrol or his lessons. Its an opinion. People pay private sports coaches much more per hour, and they aren't even pros usually. Why is this any different? On January 06 2010 06:23 n3m0 wrote:
I agree with tenryu... and imho this is nothing but a scam.. how many hours would it take to bring a D+ player to B rank (which doesn't mean nothing these days?).
I don't understand why would ppl pay to improve their gameplay in a 10 yo game knowing that they will never earn that money back playing bw... srsly either they have deep pockets and got nothing else to do or they are stupid.
The best way to improve is to play alot and learn from your own mistakes. I know a guy who went from D to B- rank in 2 seasons all due to his hardwork. I'm never gonna be a professional athlete, but I've paid for a couple private lessons. I improve naturally, but obviously speeding up the process and seeing yourself improve is enjoyable, at least for many people. You got a point there... Anyway I think 10$ per hour far too expensive for 1 hour bw lesson. I don't know about USA but here in Portugal minimum wage is like 450~500 Euros (don't know the exact value atm) per month working a regular 8 hours per day which means they earn 2,81~3,125 Euros per hour (it's not 100% accurate but you get the idea). Now from this point of view 10 dollars per lesson (1 hour) is just outrageous. If he did this like 4 hours a day (NOT incluiding weekends!) he'd make 800$ per month giving "bw lessons" srsly . _.a You think $10/hour is too expensive for specialized, one on one teaching? Piano and language teachers charge far more per hour, and they probably are nowhere near as good at their skills as Inc is at BW. People in the top of their fields charge far more, hundreds an hour, to tutor one person. I think the price is actually outrageously low rather than high, obviously $10 is a lot to a minimum wage worker but obviously Incontrol isn't targeting some guy that works at a grocery store to feed his family. We're talking people who play StarCraft for recreation -- if they can afford a computer and regular internet, they can afford $10. You have a warped sense of "expensive" if you think $10/hr is "outrageous," have you ever had to pay for a lawyer or doctor? Its far, far more expensive. At $10 for one lesson, it's basically the same as going to a movie, and you don't think movies are outrageous right? oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft? First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea.. So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial.
I never said he's the same as a doctor or lawyer. I'm saying that if you believe $10/hr for a specialized service is "outrageous" then you must never have paid for a $300/hr lawyer. Obviously Incontrol teaching BW != doctor, otherwise he'd be charging $300/hour. He's not.
On January 06 2010 07:45 n3m0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 07:33 QuakerOats wrote:On January 06 2010 07:20 n3m0 wrote:
oh lol... How can you compare a language teacher, a lawyer or even a doctor's work to a player "teaching" you how to improve in starcraft?
First of all, learning a language improves considerably your future, not only as far as your curriculum is concerned but also allows you to work abroad. For example, here in Portugal if you have done a CPE exam (certificate of proficiency in english) your chances of getting a good job improve drastically. Secondly you pay for a doctor/lawyer if you have a desease or some sort of problems with teh law.. Hence you there's no way in hell you can compare the amount a doctor (lawyer etc, etc) can charge for a "session" (let's say) to the amount a guy can charge you for a lesson on how to improve your gaming in a game you'll never be the best or even top50 outside korea..
So I guess my point remains intact. All the jobs you mentioned above are essecial. Ok, then what about instrument tutors? As other people in this topic already said, piano/guitar/etc. teachers charge far more than $10 per hour and they are far worse at what they do comparatively than inc is at Starcraft. And most people who take guitar lessons (fortunately) do not go on to become Steve Vai. There are small diferences, no matter how small they exist. Many people paying a tutor to learn an instrument, dream to be a musician even if they are not the best, or even famous, they can still live their lives as musicians in an orchestra for instance. Others just do it as a hobby, nevertheless will always count for something even if it's just to put it in your curriculum. In contrast, what would you get for your starcraft skills? Important note: Do not flame please. I got nothing againt Incontrol, actually I think he's a good player. I'm just stating my opinion about this matter.
No, there are no differences. Do you think every kid who plays piano wants to do it for a living, full time? That makes no sense, plenty of people pay learn leisure skills. Are you saying someone who gets tutored in chess wants to make a living beating Kasparov? Or that someone who pays to go to soccer camp when they are young is trying to make a professional team?
Many people do things for the pure enjoyment of them, and getting better at something they enjoy doing is perfectly natural. You make it sound like in order to pay for lessons for anything, it has to be some sort of resume-builder or career-thing. Paying money for something you enjoy doing is the basis of every recreational activity everywhere. Millions of people do it, and they pay far more than $10/hr for this quality of teaching.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 06 2010 07:29 Red_Storm wrote:
Hey Inc, you still taking money through Full Tilt?
Yes. And to the guy who didn't want to set up a paypal account I accept money over pokerstars and fulltilt, which are easier to establish.
And in general: Some of you are missing the fundamental points of this entire situation. I am offering a service. It is CLEARLY recreational based as SCBW is not an essential aspect of anyone's life. However, people for thousands of years have paid money towards things that aren't essential but improve the quality of their life. If I can help someone get better at the game they have been playing for years so they can win more games or enjoy a higher level of gaming who the hell are you to tell me it is outrageous to charge a fee? Nevermind the rate, the rate isn't even important. I could charge 5$ and people would say the same thing. Point is, don't judge what others spend their money on with this game. I had a guy sign me up for TLT2 which cost him money for no pleasure aside from him getting to support me and watch me play. I went on to take 4th in the biggest foreigner tourney of that time.. did he GAIN from it? Nope. None of you even know who he is.. but he experienced a joy out of it and he paid money towards scbw with 0 return.
A lot of you that are negatively commenting on the coaching haven't even read the reviews. If you actually had an inkling of consideration you'd do that, not just make assumptions about something and call it a "scam" which btw is so blatantly not the case it actually angers me that you then later say "I am just posting my opinion" n3m0. Posting an ignorant opinion and calling something important to others a "scam" is not simply "posting" it is bad posting. And I'd like it if you either refrained from doing that in this blog or you took the time to read the 2 other threads including the customer reviews and then tell me how it is again, that I am scamming people when I clearly lay out my services, charge a fee, give a service, and they respond positively. It literally goes against the definition of "scam" when people GET WHAT THEY WANT/EXPECTED in return for a fee.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On January 06 2010 01:30 orangeshines wrote:
I didn't realise that TL was operating on those commercial principles.
LOL
six years of hard volunteer work by an intensely dedicated staff and we "operate on those commercial principles"
hahahaha do you think at ALL before you post?
i agree with chill you are way, way off the mark
edit: i realize i'm coming in totally late but hooooly fuck that post made me chuckle
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Valhalla18444 Posts
oh and just to put something retarded to rest:
incontrol's competitive gaming style is pretty wild and i would definitely not suggest trying to emulate it because he's... a special kinda guy 
however, his knowledge of the accepted standard of gameplay is IMMENSE. the guy definitely knows what he's talking about. if you purchase lessons from incontrol, he can teach you any style of zerg you want to learn. this extends to protoss and terran as well! If you have trouble maintaining a solid C, incontrol can teach you terran and protoss very effectively
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I think the most important thing to point out is that you'd be spending time with a celebrity albeit on the internet.
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You can definitely get the knowledge incontrol offers for free, but it would most likely take alot more time and effort to get better by yourself as opposed to paying for a coach. If you have money that you don't know where to spend and want to get better at starcraft i don't think there is anything wrong with this for the most part.
I do get a slight uncomfortable with charging for something starcraft related anyway though, but i don't really feel i have any rational arguments against it other than a gut-feeling that this is somehow wrong :p ( i don't really think it is wrong, i'm just saying somewhere it feels like it should be wrong-.-).
You guys bashing this should definitely find some real arguments against this if u're going to do it at
all, as for me i think it's blatantly obvious from what is shown so far that incontrol is in no way trying to rip anyone off.
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FuDDx
United States5015 Posts
It still makes me scratch my head when we as people chose to argue over something we never wanted or never will use just to argue. Or to try to prove they are right. You live in your world and I in mine if you do not like my world get the f out if not stay awhile and put your feet up. But please whatever you do ( nemo scrouge etc) can you stop crapping on the carpet or at least clean it up before you leave/kicked out.
Inc <3 to you and yours sir thanks for being here.
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You know who you are, any more flaming will result in a ban.
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did you just delete gearhead's posts r1ch? haha, nice.
anyways, i really don't get why some people are making this such a big deal. just let people do what they want with their money, if you think it is a waste then don't do it...
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On January 06 2010 15:27 R1CH wrote:
You know who you are, any more flaming will result in a ban.
You're way too nice
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I wonder if I Inc would let me pay for lessons, and if he did if he would give me legitimate advice.lol
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On January 06 2010 09:23 {88}iNcontroL wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 07:29 Red_Storm wrote:
Hey Inc, you still taking money through Full Tilt? Yes. And to the guy who didn't want to set up a paypal account I accept money over pokerstars and fulltilt, which are easier to establish. And in general: Some of you are missing the fundamental points of this entire situation. I am offering a service. It is CLEARLY recreational based as SCBW is not an essential aspect of anyone's life. However, people for thousands of years have paid money towards things that aren't essential but improve the quality of their life. If I can help someone get better at the game they have been playing for years so they can win more games or enjoy a higher level of gaming who the hell are you to tell me it is outrageous to charge a fee? Nevermind the rate, the rate isn't even important. I could charge 5$ and people would say the same thing. Point is, don't judge what others spend their money on with this game. I had a guy sign me up for TLT2 which cost him money for no pleasure aside from him getting to support me and watch me play. I went on to take 4th in the biggest foreigner tourney of that time.. did he GAIN from it? Nope. None of you even know who he is.. but he experienced a joy out of it and he paid money towards scbw with 0 return. A lot of you that are negatively commenting on the coaching haven't even read the reviews. If you actually had an inkling of consideration you'd do that, not just make assumptions about something and call it a "scam" which btw is so blatantly not the case it actually angers me that you then later say "I am just posting my opinion" n3m0. Posting an ignorant opinion and calling something important to others a "scam" is not simply "posting" it is bad posting. And I'd like it if you either refrained from doing that in this blog or you took the time to read the 2 other threads including the customer reviews and then tell me how it is again, that I am scamming people when I clearly lay out my services, charge a fee, give a service, and they respond positively. It literally goes against the definition of "scam" when people GET WHAT THEY WANT/EXPECTED in return for a fee.
I made a correction from my 1st post, it's obviously not a scam. I don't need to be reading reviews I never doubted you were indeed giving good lessons and that your "costumers" were pleased with your teachings. If you read throughout the blog you'll notice that i'm against this whole idea in general, this is not a personal attack..
Anyway i've shared my thoughts about this matter, there's no need to start a flame war when i'm not even flaming anyone.
I just feel sad because some members of this website quote 1 of my posts to call me an idiot.. Anyway what was I expecting, Inc posts something, I state my opinion about the matter (it goes against his idea), his fellow ass-lickers come out of nowhere insulting me without any argument.
I'm not refering to everyone, just a few. Again, I don't have nothing against incontrol and i'm not flaming him.
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I've read the very last page of quotes on this blog and have come to the conclusion that the problem is 10 costs too much if you're from portugal :o
Stop complaining guys there's nothing tooo it shit :/ its not even a scam. Imagine yourself spending an hour talking to a guy over ventrillo or something for an hour trying to help him/her improve I would go insane. Incs working hard here and making a fEw extra bucks. He's not going out there making hundreds
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 06 2010 18:30 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I wonder if I Inc would let me pay for lessons, and if he did if he would give me legitimate advice.lol
Yes I would.
Personal feelings aside I take this coaching very serious.. it'd be professional etc.
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EPT
