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On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote:
To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level.
Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through.
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On January 03 2010 06:18 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote:
To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level. Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through.
protoss cant turtle? Thats like probably the best strategy protoss can use lategame :O (take ~half the map and turtle with cannons/reavers/templars)
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Free's reaver micro was terribad in that game lol
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funny how every s-class zerg vs toss loss is such a sensation nowadays. remember how it was like in 2008 ... >_<
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On January 03 2010 06:18 MuffinDude wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote:
To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level. Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through.
you overuse the word turtle.
If the zerg is aggressive vs the protoss, he's abusive.
If the zerg is defensive vs the protoss, he just turtles.
What do you want zerg and or terran to do?
Think about effort vs jangbi. So what if he turtled? Effort put everything into turtling. EVERYTHING. He was barely pumping drones, squeezed out another hatch and got upgrades, but was focusing on just defending with lurker ling. He never put any pressure on all that time. Jangbi was instead of building up a huge force in preparation for late game and efforts antics, he kept being aggressive trying to break him. He forced effort to focus even longer on defense and was able to leave effort close to mined out when effort finally was able to attack expansions and attempt sniping them off.
Zerg can't have an army they can attack anywhere and not lose in seconds until they get to late game with ultra/ling and a nice advantage, Protoss however, can. Don't say you can just a-move hydra everywhere, because i advise you to play zerg and do that vs 1 or 2 storms that kill 15 hydras.
Protoss army has strength and mobility combined, and force the zerg and terrans to adapt as the situation calls. Can Mass hydra with muta sniping and lurkers later work better than fast hive and lurker defence into management? Both are very contrasting. Zerg has insane mobility, Terran has insane firepower, how you use it vs the constantly strong and mobile protoss army is the key.
Anyway, when zerg finally get a strong enough army that they can brute force a protoss, that's when protoss can turtle. Believe me, you do not want to vs a defensive late game protoss on even terms (watch violet vs hogil to see why)
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Jangbi is the best PvZer ever... you cant say otherwise, well on his good days (I think he got the best PvZ winning streak).
Khan fighting!
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MuffinDude once it gets late game a Protoss turtling with Reaver/Storm and good Gateway blocks at his expansions is basically impossible to break so I've no idea what you mean by Protoss not being able to turtle like EffOrt did. It's perfectly vaible and very fucking annoying to deal with
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On January 03 2010 08:50 FranzF1 wrote:
Jangbi is the best PvZer ever... you cant say otherwise, well on his good days (I think he got the best PvZ winning streak).
Khan fighting!
Uhm, no. Check TLPD. Bisu has a longer streak and probably other players as well (I only bothered checking Jangbi and Bisu).
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On January 03 2010 07:25 Corvi wrote:
funny how every s-class zerg vs toss loss is such a sensation nowadays. remember how it was like in 2008 ... >_<
Seriously though it's always been Z>P more or less.
So stop being a whiny bitch.
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On January 03 2010 08:50 FranzF1 wrote:
Jangbi is the best PvZer ever... you cant say otherwise, well on his good days (I think he got the best PvZ winning streak).
Khan fighting!
Definately not. I'd choose Bisu over Jangbi any day.
Oh and in long, drawn out and epic PvZ:s, Stork has my pick. He just CAN'T loose an epic PvZ game. Stork vs Gorush on (what map?) This is an understatement. I should definately make a thread on Storks MEGA SUPER EPIC PvZ:s throughout the years. Holy shit, pure Starcraft enjoyment right there.
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United States4796 Posts
Kal and Stork. Bisu at some point but no longer.
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On January 03 2010 06:39 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2010 06:18 MuffinDude wrote:On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote:
To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level. Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through. protoss cant turtle? Thats like probably the best strategy protoss can use lategame :O (take ~half the map and turtle with cannons/reavers/templars)
Some protoss users like to think that they have it the worst, it seems. But everyone else can abuse and turtle. Must be hard to be delusional a protoss.
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On January 03 2010 09:32 Foucault wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2010 08:50 FranzF1 wrote:
Jangbi is the best PvZer ever... you cant say otherwise, well on his good days (I think he got the best PvZ winning streak).
Khan fighting! Definately not. I'd choose Bisu over Jangbi any day. Oh and in long, drawn out and epic PvZ:s, Stork has my pick. He just CAN'T loose an epic PvZ game. Stork vs Gorush on (what map?) This is an understatement. I should definately make a thread on Storks MEGA SUPER EPIC PvZ:s throughout the years. Holy shit, pure Starcraft enjoyment right there.
Neo Requiem.
As as for epic PvZ/ZvP matches, I'd say that Gorush is the bigger contributor. Gorush's management style had a tendency to create titanic slugfests. Case and point: Stork vs Gorush, Nal_rA vs Gorush on Neo Forte, NaDa vs Gorush (especially on Luna, the game with the medic wall), etc. As I said in another thread, many progamers have commented over the years that the best game they ever played was against Gorush.
Yeah, that game was epic though. That, and Ra vs Gorush and Reach vs Chojja on Rush Hour (3?) were some of the greatest PvZ games ever played. You don't see Starcraft like that anymore. Going back further, the game between Giyom and Zerglee on Blade Storm was ridiculous back in it's day (MAELSTROM!).
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Didn't read the thread except op, and that game wasn't that great.
If Free showed great pvz it was his game vs Ych something, on one of the test maps.
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EPT
