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Religion Term Paper

Blogs > Misrah
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Misrah
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States1695 Posts
December 02 2009 01:23 GMT
#1
Atheism; There is no way to prove god does not exist, yet they believe it strongly.



























To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, God, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no God, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But a heresy it certainly is. Jesus told us indeed that 'God is a spirit,' but he has not defined what a spirit is, nor said that it is not matter. And the ancient fathers generally, if not universally, held it to be matter: light and thin indeed, an etherial gas; but still matter." letter to John Adams, August 15, 1820
~Thomas Jefferson





































a. INTRODUCTION: Atheism's distinct influence on western culture
Atheism is a recent and a rather distinctive western phenomenon in accepted unbelief of the divine. The suddenness of the public shift, from devout believers to unbelievers is quite sudden. What is intriguing however is atheism's rarity in the historical record of other cultures. Only in western culture do we now find such a wide spread public rejection of the divine. Throughout these last fifty years, which is as long as the Gallup Poll (The Gallup Report 1935-1985) has shown that privately Americans regularly answer “Yes,” to the question “Do you believe in god?” However even with this resounding affirmative, the references to god in public discourse are few and far between. America has become a nation of public and practical theists. (Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless, x-xii)

Atheism; The Fight for your mind
Atheism has only had a noticeable effect on western culture. No where else in the historical record of other nations, cultures, or countries has atheism had such a large impact on public perceptions of the divine. (Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless) Atheism is a relative newcomer on the theistic stage. Yet in the western world it's pull is undeniable. Atheism does not try and save the soul, instead it attempts to save the mind.
Atheists themselves began the psychological approach to the question of belief. Indeed, many atheists are famous for arguing that believers suffer from illusions, from unconscious and infantile needs, and form other psychological deficits. A significant part of the atheist position has been an aggressive interpretation of religious belief as arising form psychological factors, not the nature of reality, Furthermore, this interpretation has been widely influential. In short, the theory that God is a projection of our own needs is a familiar modern position and is, for example, presented in countless university courses. (Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless, 13)
The proponents of the idea that theistic belief is inevitably a mental illness was propagated by some of atheism's earliest proponents. Some notable atheists include: Friedrich Nietzsche, Sigmund Freud, Bertrand Russell, and Jean- Paul Sartre. Today Atheists do not only rely on psychology, but science.

Presentation of Research
The intention of this paper is to identify atheisms validity as a religion, and to compare and contrast the attitudes that atheists share, dealing with believers and non-believers alike. It would be this students goal to try and show that atheism is indeed a belief system, and is in fact more like theistic religions of the past than a rejection of said religions. Before dissecting atheism's place in todays modern society, an abridged history of atheism will be given. This history of atheism is a vital part of understanding the modern day atheism, and it's current place in science, religion, and the American mind. The term “atheist” is coined from the Greek term atheistos, meaning something like “one who denies the traditional religion of the Athenian establishment.” Denying the existence of God's (as most modern day atheists do) was seen as a punishable offense in Greek society.

Socrates (469-399bc.) was enforced to commit suicide because of his ideas. One of his accusers Melitus said that the “atheist” philosopher had corrupted the children of the city, by telling them not to believe in the cities gods. However compared to the atheist of today, Socrates would find no place in the radical beliefs that all modern day atheists share.(Grath, The Twilight of Atheism,8) Even established theistic religions of today were once thought of being “atheistic.” The first Christan's were thought to be atheist, because they challenged the pagan beliefs of the later classical world. The term of atheism has been throughout time branded to many people, ideas, and even theistic belief systems.

II. Atheism in the Modern Age:
The western world has always had a deeply seeded belief in god. Partly because of the large role the church has played in it's history. The church was a stabilizing force for the people. However this was about to change. Around the sixteenth century the protestant reformation took place. However this change was not truly a deformation of the church per se. Both Protestants and Christan's still believed in a God. After years and years of the wealthy, and corrupt church ruling the land the protestant reformation helped to bring about a resurgence of atheistic ideals. (Grath, The Twilight of Atheism,10)

While it can be said that at one time the church played an important role in stabilizing the general populace during the dark ages, after the reformation peoples thoughts about the church began to change. Many felt that the church had grown too powerful, and needed to be restricted. The church was now holding back the intellectual, artistic, and political endeavors. Some men took it upon themselves to try and help the church reform, and turn it from a corrupt and lavish organization to something that resembled the early church. Some notable men include Martin Luther (1483-1546), Huldrych Zwingli (1484-1531), and John Calvin (1509-1564) (Grath, The Twilight of Atheism,11)

With the Protestant reformation, the ideas of the church were being brought into question. Atheism was at first seen, not as a truly applicable belief system, but a tool to use against the church. The historical origins of modern atheism lie primarily in an extended criticism of the power and status of the church, rather than in any asserted attractions of a godless world. (Gratz, The Twilight of Atheism,11) Suddenly the atheistic ideals first imagined by classical philosophers was finding a resurgence in the modern era. The known unbelievers (Atheists) of Europe and America before the French revolution in 1789 numbered fewer than a dozen or two. (Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless,10) Atheism however was slowly growing in some minds. Soon in 1870 Atheism became a respectable belief in academic and intellectual circles.(Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless,11)

Prominent Atheists in the Modern Era
During the late 19th and early 20th century atheism had found itself embedded in some of the most brilliant minds of the time. Notable atheists: Friedrich Nietzsche, Sigmund Freud, Bertrand Russell, and Jean- Paul Sartre. (Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless,3) This paper will specifically explore Sigmund Freud's influence on Atheism, and why this titan of psychology proposed that god was nothing more than an oedipal desire of man.

As is generally known, Freud's criticism of belief in God is that such a belief is untrustworthy because of ti's psychological origins. That is, God is a projection of our own intense, unconscious desires.(Vitz, The faith of the Fatherless,6) Freud's influence in the field of psychology is uncontested. Referred to as the 'father of psychology' Freud gave rise to the science of psychoanalysis. It is not a far stretch of the imagination to understand why Freud would believe that belief in god is simply a figment of imagination. In his book “Future of an Illusion” Freud attempts to explain his position on god. He writes: “Religious ideas have arisen from the same need as have all the other achievements of civilization: from the necessity of defending oneself against the crushing superior force of nature.” What Freud is trying to say is that any religious belief can be quantified urges that man kind has always possessed. He continues: “As we already know, the terrifying impression of helplessness in childhood aroused the need for protection- for protection through love- which was provided by the father...Thus the benevolent rule of a divine Providence allays our fear of the dangers of life.” (Freud, The Future of an Illusion, ed. And trans. J. Stachey(New York: Norton, 1961)

Freud's reasoning for the illusion of God may well refute the existence of a divine being. However if we take a closer look at what is mentioned in “Future of an Illusion” it is quite easy to notice that this explanation could be applied to most anything. If every thing created by people was simply nothing but a construct created for the unconscious desires that as human beings we all share, then surely Freud has them his self. If that is the case, then even psychoanalysis is subject to the same scrutiny. If this is true, and in Freud's own words it is undoubtedly so- then Freud himself is arguing the disbelief of god through yet another “projection” of his deepest desires.

However Freud is not wrong to consider that a belief might be an illusion because it is first formed in the unconscious. Instead Freud inadvertently provides a powerful new way to understand an illusion as the psychological basis for rejecting God- that is, a projection theory of atheism.(Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless,9) The Oedipus complex is a male personality developmental stage, pioneered by Freud. A short explanation is as follows: Around the age of 3 a young boy will develop strong desires (sexual in nature) towards his mother. At the same time, the young child will begin to develop a strong hatred and fear for the father. The child would like nothing more, than to 'dethrone' the king, and take his place. The hatred arises from the boys innate knowledge that the father is stronger, and much bigger. This figure stands in the way of the boys desires. The child fears the father because of castration by the father. The son of course does not really kill the father, but instead learns to life with him. Freud goes on later to explain that the neurotic potential of the situation: “the Oedipus complex is the actual nucleus of neuroses.” Freud is just saying that many of mankind's neuroses come from this initial Oedipus complex. (Vitz, Faith of the fatherless,11)

Because Freud has stated that is the epicenter of all of our neuroses, he had developed a sound reason as to why people would try and reject god. The Oedipus complex is completely unconscious, and is formed in the early years of life. It is dominated by the hatred of the father (in this case god) and the unconscious desire for god to not exist. This is represented by the child's wish to kill the father.

Therefore, in the Freudian framework, atheism is an illusion caused by the Oedipal desire to kill the father (God) and replace him with oneself. To act as thought god does not exist reveals a wish to kill him, much in the same way as in a dream the image of a parent going away or disappearing can represent such a wish. The belief that “God is dead,” therefore, is simply an Oedipal wish-fulfillment- the sign of seriously unresolved unconscious motivation. (Vitz, Faith of the Fatherless, 13) Freud has had a profound impact on how the interpretation of a 'God' figure can be interpreted. This complete and utter rejection of the father figure can be seen in todays more radicalized form of atheism.

III. Atheism in Present Day America

It would seem that atheism has come a long way from it's beginnings. In the western world, it grew from a handful of individuals in the 18th century, and today more than 16% of the world population considers themselves to be atheistic, or agnostic in their belief systems. (http://www.adherents.com) In 2000 alone only 20% of Americans had 'belief' in god. (Grath The Twilight of Atheism, 156) However the question comes to mind, 'why is there a sudden and veritable explosion of atheistic belief?' The answer to that question comes in the form of science. “Science is a way of knowing about the natural world.” (God the Failed Hypothesis, 28)

With the advent of post modern science atheists have come a long way in the accusations they have made to further discredit the theistic faith. Science is seen in our post modern world as something that can fainally bring understanding to life. Most people would agree that science bring empirically tested fact about the reality and nature of this world. It has usurped the churches control over the minds of it's converts, and consequently has become atheisms current tool to undermine the teaching of the church.

One of the most prominent, learned and outspoken atheists to date is Victor J. Stenger. He currently resides as an emeritus professor of physics and astronomy at the University of Hawaii and adjunct professor of philosophy at the University of Colorado, He is author of the “Comprehensible Cosmos,” “Timeless Reality,” “The Unconscious Quantum,” “Physics and Psychics,” “Not by Design,” and “Has Science Found God?” In his latest work, Stenger argues that with todays modern scientific techniques and current understanding of the material world, that mankind can finally deny the existence of god, and do so with empirical and scientific fact.

It would seem that with empirical and scientific fact, that atheism could not be seen as a religion. However unbeknown to most atheists they are still placing their faith, and beliefs in an altogether different entity. In “God the Failed Hypothesis,” Stenger's thesis is the following: “The thesis of this book is that the supernatural hypothesis of God is testable, verifiable, and falsifiable by the established methods of science. We can imagine all sorts of phenomena that, if observed by means of methodological naturalism, would suggest the possibility of some reality that is highly unlikely to be consistent with metaphysical naturalism.”
Metaphysical naturalism is referencing the inherent and according to Stenger 'supposed' dogmatism that science is naturally materialistic. He further argues that science's influence can go above and beyond these metaphysical constraints. “Any type of dogmatism is the very antithesis of science. The history of science from Copernicus and Galileo to the present, is replete with examples that belie the charge of dogmatism in science.” In Stenger's attempt to try and give a concrete reasoning for the idea that science can observe the supernatural and is not tied down to metaphysical naturalism is absurd.

Science has one major flaw that is inherent in all things. The simple fact is- that the human experience is created by an imperfect means. That is to say that the human body can only receive stimulus from one of the five senses. (Sight, Sound, Touch, Taste, Smell) No matter how hard one may try, it is physically impossible for a human to somehow measure or record a phenomena that is not in some way material. While it is possible to build machines to help us see farther, we still must interpret the data our machines are giving us. In Strenger's thesis he is making the claim that any supernatural god can be testable, verifiable, and falsifiable. It is with this statement that Strenger is assuming that a supernatural god is either materialistic, and or effect's the material world in a testable way. If Strenger were to not state these proofs in his thesis, then his entire study is simply pointless. How does one study something that is immaterial? It just simply cannot be done. In stead Strenger assumes, or more accurately believes this to be true.

Could it be said that one must be a believer to be atheist? While atheism is indeed seen as being anti-theistic, could one not say that atheistic belief is the belief in science? Or more appropriately, the belief in the five human senses? It is not this writers desire to try and drag this into a philosophical debate; yet at the same time, it should be noted that the imperfection of the human senses interpreting our material world is befuddled at best. A short example would be to imagine our sense of sight. The electro magnetic spectrum can be thought of as a wave. A wavelength in the electromagnetic spectrum range from less than 10(-14)m to 10(4) m. The visible spectrum includes wavelengths ranging only from 400 to 700 nanometers.(Sherwood, Fundamentals of Physiology, 139) Our minds understanding of 'light' is so limited, and multiplying this inherent err to all of our senses, one can easily conclude that the simple act of perceiving anything is a belief in itself. Do you really see what is there? Or is the neural pathways going too and from your brain changing the reality of the object?

This is the problem that all people, and science in particular must try and work around. Constrained to a life of limited extrasensory input and understanding. Could man ever truly create a final thesis on the existence or the non existence of god? It seems that Atheists and atheism has deemed that even in the light of their human imperfection that claiming and justifying this statement is very possible. It can be said than that to believe in a theistic belief system is akin to modern atheism. Atheists simply believe in science, and the truth of how their mind interprets reality. Atheism in that sense can be seen as not only a belief but an entire belief system.










Bibliography
Stenger, Victor. God the Failed Hypothesis: how science shows that God does not exist. New York: Prometheus 2007

McGrath, Alister. The Twilight of Atheism: the rise and fall of disbelief in the modern world. New York:
Doubleday 2004

Vitz, Paul. Faith of the Fatherless: the Psychology of Atheism. Dallas:
Spence Publishing 1999

Dawkins, Richard. The God Delusion. Boston, New York:
Houghton Mifflin Company 2006

Sherwood, Lauralee. Fundamentals of Physiology: a human perspective. New York:
Theomson Brooks 2006


A thread vaguely bashing SC2? SWARM ON, LOW POST COUNT BRETHREN! DEFEND THE GLORIOUS GAME THAT IS OUR LIVELIHOOD
rredtooth
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
5459 Posts
December 02 2009 01:32 GMT
#2
cool bro.
[formerly sponsored by the artist formerly known as Gene]
Carthac
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States393 Posts
December 02 2009 01:33 GMT
#3
You would love Christopher Hitchens
zulu_nation8
Profile Blog Joined May 2005
China26351 Posts
December 02 2009 01:45 GMT
#4
gonna show this to my mom
chekyosikz
Profile Joined March 2008
United States24 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-02 01:49:30
December 02 2009 01:47 GMT
#5
double post, oops!
chekyosikz
Profile Joined March 2008
United States24 Posts
December 02 2009 01:47 GMT
#6
Lotta typos and grammatical errors. Also, the in-text citations are inconsistent with themselves and with the bibliography. Organizationally, I thought it flowed very well. I think the part on Freud could be condensed a bit because 5 paragraphs for his beliefs and a few sentences for Sartre, Socrates, etc. is a little unbalanced. Overall I think it's a pretty solid essay and will get you a good grade after you fix the technical errors. I agree with your thesis and conclusion. I think atheists are more passionate about their beliefs than most pious people. Nice work!
Meta
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States6225 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-02 01:57:32
December 02 2009 01:49 GMT
#7
Just a bit of proofreading for you:

"As is generally known, Freud's criticism of belief in God is that such a belief is untrustworthy because of ti's psychological origins."

it's is misspelled

"Freud has had a profound impact on how the interpretation of a 'God' figure can be interpreted"

Interpret interpretations.. I feel like this sentence could be re-worked.

"Science is seen in our post modern world as something that can fainally bring understanding to life"
finally is mispeslled

"In Stenger's attempt to try and give a concrete reasoning for the idea that science can observe the supernatural and is not tied down to metaphysical naturalism is absurd."

I think you should remove the word "in" at the beginning of the sentence.


Anyway, I thought this paper was really interesting and thought provoking.
I would disagree that atheists put belief in anything, really, besides maybe the assumption that we live in a rational universe, and that our minds are capable of rational thought. Everything else we claim to know follows from that. It's not really as much a belief as it is an assumption, ratified by the fact that we haven't found anything that has disproved the rationality of the universe.

In fact, from my point of view, the disbelief-in-god aspect of atheism should be taken with a grain of salt. Any good atheist won't say that there's a 100% chance that god does not exist. That would be just as unverified as the ridiculous claims of the religious. A better statement would be "from what we can tell, we think that there's a good chance that a benevolent god does not exist."

Finally, the burden of proof doesn't lie on us because we're not the ones making the claim. I'd change my atheistic "belief" in a minute if sufficient evidence was presented to me of god's existence. Until that evidence is given, why "believe" in anything other than what you experience?




My point is summed up by this statement:
"Atheists simply believe in science, and the truth of how their mind interprets reality. Atheism in that sense can be seen as not only a belief but an entire belief system."

Is there any person on earth who doesn't trust how their mind interprets reality? Even people in insane asylums trust their minds, even when their minds are giving them false information. I don't see how this "belief" is at all applicable to atheists in particular.
good vibes only
Altar
Profile Joined May 2008
United States577 Posts
December 02 2009 01:51 GMT
#8
Can't believe I just read all that...
Heavens to Betsy
GeneralStan
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
United States4789 Posts
December 02 2009 01:54 GMT
#9
I wholly disagree with the drawn conclusion. A scientific look at the world around us demands that we acknowledge that God either does not exist or is incredibly improbable. Calling science and the atheism that results from it a belief system is a very flawed conclusion.

We have probed the natural world to greater and greater depths. Previously, wherever science failed to explain a phenomenon, the Church would step in to say that man could never know such things, and substitute God for actual understanding. Even Newton attributed his magnificent theory of gravitation to the work of God.

But the deeper we probe, the less room there is for God. The God of the Gaps has gone away now. No longer to believers attempt to say that God can ever be measured in any way in the physical world.

While we may never be able to explore every nook, to scan every spectrum, to look everywhere for evidence, God is still a hypothesis. The more we look, the more it seems any evidence of its existence will be hidden very deeply indeed.

So then where do we find this God. If God has no impact on the physical world we interact with, if he can never be examined, seen, probed, or shown to exist in any way, then how are we to say he does exist? An existence independent of the universe we inhabit is indistinguishable from nonexistence!

So Atheists have not made any belief statement. They have examined the available evidence (of which there is ZERO for existence of a God), and come to the logical conclusion that there is more than likely no God.

Despite my disagreement with you, I want to say nice work. I don't usually get so riled up n the internet ^^
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
PrincessLeila
Profile Joined October 2004
France170 Posts
December 02 2009 02:25 GMT
#10
"Belief with evidence is knowledge
Belief without evidence is faith
Belief despite contradictory evidence is invincible ignorance.

Many religion/cult members claim faith when in fact they are demonstrating invincible ignorance.

For example:
Believing the world is less than 10,000 years old despite all the evidence demonstrating the world is much older is not faith but invincible ignorance."
Disregard
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
China10252 Posts
December 02 2009 02:39 GMT
#11
I should take my English courses more seriously, my professor doesnt even accept essays more than 3 pages long.
"If I had to take a drug in order to be free, I'm screwed. Freedom exists in the mind, otherwise it doesn't exist."
sob3k
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States7572 Posts
December 02 2009 03:11 GMT
#12
I would disagree that atheists put belief in anything, really, besides maybe the assumption that we live in a rational universe, and that our minds are capable of rational thought



this

If you don't accept this statement, you have nothing, and you are done.
In Hungry Hungry Hippos there are no such constraints—one can constantly attempt to collect marbles with one’s hippo, limited only by one’s hippo-levering capabilities.
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-02 03:20:23
December 02 2009 03:18 GMT
#13
On December 02 2009 10:54 GeneralStan wrote:
I wholly disagree with the drawn conclusion. A scientific look at the world around us demands that we acknowledge that God either does not exist or is incredibly improbable. Calling science and the atheism that results from it a belief system is a very flawed conclusion.


Could you show me some of this evidence that demonstrates that the existence of a God (who for all we know could exist outside of space and time altogether) is at the very best incredibly improbable? How "probable" is chemical evolution? How "probable" is the big bang in resulting in a perfectly ordered universe? Even if the miller-urey experiment wasn't performed under ridiculously contrived conditions, how "probable" is a bunch of random amino acids turning themselves into working, metabolizing, replicating, organized groups of proteins? (replace with nucleotides/nucleic acids, if RNA world is your thing). I'm not going to say that the sheer improbability of these things demonstrates that there must be a God, but it should certainly be enough to make you step back and be humble enough to admit that there are a lot of things we don't understand just yet.

There are as many problems with an atheistic evolution as there are with any theory of creation. Creation theories simply don't fit the scientific method because of occam's razor and the need for falsifiable hypotheses and all that. Atheism is still very much a belief system, as you're choosing to believe in a large set of assumptions about how history created the present that are necessary to extrapolate our current observations into the past. It's a bit circular, but it's the best that the scientific method can do. I'm fine with that, but it doesn't exactly "prove" much past the last ten thousand years or so.
Daedes
Profile Joined August 2009
Bangladesh105 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-02 03:57:56
December 02 2009 03:19 GMT
#14
Athiest can not Disprove god exist, that is true.

You cant disprove prove a all powerful unicorn with powers beyond human understanding vomited the universe because he was sick, that is also true
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
December 02 2009 03:22 GMT
#15
I don't think I actually took a position, and I'm certainly not trying to prove anything. I'm not that arrogant.
AwarE--
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States70 Posts
December 02 2009 03:26 GMT
#16
What kind of class is this for?

What was the prompt/assignment?

I'm not sure I understand your paper. Do you have MSN or aim so I can ask you about it further?
Weaponx3
Profile Joined January 2009
Canada232 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-02 03:31:41
December 02 2009 03:31 GMT
#17
On December 02 2009 11:25 PrincessLeila wrote:
"Belief with evidence is knowledge
Belief without evidence is faith
Belief despite contradictory evidence is invincible ignorance.

Many religion/cult members claim faith when in fact they are demonstrating invincible ignorance.

For example:
Believing the world is less than 10,000 years old despite all the evidence demonstrating the world is much older is not faith but invincible ignorance."



No one believes the world is less than 10 000 years old and i think you mean the universe which was created from a single point. When you take account that the universe is constantly expanding you will realize that the when you take into account the rate of expanision you realize it is equivalent to the real age of the universe.

Atheisim takes more belief and faith than it does for God, because as francis bacon once wrote "a little science enstranges a man from God, a lot of science brings him back". Computer simulations have calculated that even with infinite time life does not come to be.
Daedes
Profile Joined August 2009
Bangladesh105 Posts
December 02 2009 03:53 GMT
#18
How "probable" is the big bang in resulting in a perfectly ordered universe?


What are you talking about? The universe is certainty not ordered and is not perfect at all. Perfect being pretty vague.

amino acids turning themselves into working, metabolizing, replicating, organized groups of proteins? (replace with nucleotides/nucleic acids, if RNA world is your thing).


okay how life started question... yes we don't know yet. But it is most likely going to be solved in time. But it sounds like you don't think evolutionary chemical reactions isn't likely when it is actual fact. i mean once a living thing in...our vague terms of living...its defiantly not hard to evolve.

No one really can say what reality is. Reality in a sense is a vague term not used in a context. If you want to say reality is what is true and what we know is real . then No one has any idea of what reality is. But ignoring countless observations and breaking any chain of the law of physics is creating an impossibility. Physical laws cannot be broken and the world of reality is beyond your or my understanding. I know im not going to change your mind on anything but know, that we all live in belief that is shaped through our experience, in what we hear said is fact, And what we want to be true, thinking we know or understand in our small unexperianced lives of ignorance. Everyone is like this because that is how we survive. But one must be critical of his own thinking,judgments, and statements without absolute proof with demonstration.(which is science,all experiments are repeatable).
Draconizard
Profile Joined October 2008
628 Posts
December 02 2009 03:56 GMT
#19
On December 02 2009 12:31 Weaponx3 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 02 2009 11:25 PrincessLeila wrote:
"Belief with evidence is knowledge
Belief without evidence is faith
Belief despite contradictory evidence is invincible ignorance.

Many religion/cult members claim faith when in fact they are demonstrating invincible ignorance.

For example:
Believing the world is less than 10,000 years old despite all the evidence demonstrating the world is much older is not faith but invincible ignorance."



No one believes the world is less than 10 000 years old and i think you mean the universe which was created from a single point. When you take account that the universe is constantly expanding you will realize that the when you take into account the rate of expanision you realize it is equivalent to the real age of the universe.

Atheisim takes more belief and faith than it does for God, because as francis bacon once wrote "a little science enstranges a man from God, a lot of science brings him back". Computer simulations have calculated that even with infinite time life does not come to be.


Hi.

As for the rest of your post, I don't even know whether I should rage or fall to the ground laughing.
Biochemist
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States1008 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-12-02 04:20:37
December 02 2009 04:07 GMT
#20
On December 02 2009 12:53 Daedes wrote:
Show nested quote +
How "probable" is the big bang in resulting in a perfectly ordered universe?


What are you talking about? The universe is certainty not ordered and is not perfect at all. Perfect being pretty vague.

Show nested quote +
amino acids turning themselves into working, metabolizing, replicating, organized groups of proteins? (replace with nucleotides/nucleic acids, if RNA world is your thing).


okay how life started question... yes we don't know yet. But it is most likely going to be solved in time. But it sounds like you don't think evolutionary chemical reactions isn't likely when it is actual fact. i mean once a living thing in...our vague terms of living...its defiantly not hard to evolve.

No one really can say what reality is. Reality in a sense is a vague term not used in a context. If you want to say reality is what is true and what we know is real . then No one has any idea of what reality is. But ignoring countless observations and breaking any chain of the law of physics is creating an impossibility. Physical laws cannot be broken and the world of reality is beyond your or my understanding. I know im not going to change your mind on anything but know, that we all live in belief that is shaped through our experience, in what we hear said is fact, And what we want to be true, thinking we know or understand in our small unexperianced lives of ignorance. Everyone is like this because that is how we survive. But one must be critical of his own thinking,judgments, and statements without absolute proof with demonstration.(which is science,all experiments are repeatable).


By chemical evolution I'm talking about pre-"life" evolution. You can find this assumption in any biology or biochemistry textbook. You say it's fact, but I have yet to see an experiment where complex chemicals do anything but degrade into less complex substituents. Entropy, man! Perhaps you could link me to something in the literature describing how these "facts" were obtained?

By ordered universe I meant the physical laws that enable life as we know it to exist. Where did they come from? They sure are convenient! Why is gravity so weak? Sure is nice, though. The scientific method is only really good at disproving things, not proving them. As such it's still a leap of faith to say that since we can explain how a lot of this stuff works without requiring the existence of a God, there must not be one.

I have no problem at all with either atheism or creationism, as long as they don't try to claim that they have all the answers... because they don't. Is the scientific method still our best bet for discovering those answers? You bet. Don't think that because I'm skeptical of the assumptions that science makes that I think we should throw everything out and believe in whatever the hell we want to.


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