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SkylineSC
United States564 Posts
but recently playing some pvz at D level, 3/4 of the games involve 2 base cheese... 2 hat muta, ling all in, almost no one does anything remotely similar to the standard. so yea, is this pretty normal or am I just unlucky in playing all the cheese zergs.  | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
you can't expect all zergs to go 3 hatch builds. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6638 Posts
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iMarshall
Norway190 Posts
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Ideas
United States8136 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 17 2009 00:20 BabyRhino wrote: I haven't been playing vs zerg a lot, mostly play zvp zvt, and i very RARELY get cheesed zvp, maybe once every 20-30 games. and i don't even remember the last time someone bunker rush me zvt and I always 12hat. (D+ ~ C-) but recently playing some pvz at D level, 3/4 of the games involve 2 base cheese... 2 hat muta, ling all in, almost no one does anything remotely similar to the standard. so yea, is this pretty normal or am I just unlucky in playing all the cheese zergs. rofl If you're dying to 2hatch muta in PvZ and the guy didn't open with 9poolspeed, you really have no excuse for dying. | ||
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Raptor[eigen].
Canada18 Posts
Watching replays of games that you lose and practice should both help. | ||
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Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Leg[end]
United States241 Posts
On November 17 2009 00:23 Xenocide_Knight wrote: 2 hatch builds are hardly cheese.. you can't expect all zergs to go 3 hatch builds. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19135 Posts
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:09 Nyovne wrote: How is this cheese, and I'm dutch/french so I know a thing or two on the topic. this post confuses me. in zvp 2base builds are basically cheese because if they dont do an ass-ton of damage the zerg will be extremely far behind. 2hatch builds are VERY cheese... as far as beating them, scout alot.. it's worth it to suicide probes to see a tech building, or even the timing of their second gas. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:13 tossinYoSalad wrote: this post confuses me. in zvp 2base builds are basically cheese because if they dont do an ass-ton of damage the zerg will be extremely far behind. 2hatch builds are VERY cheese... as far as beating them, scout alot.. it's worth it to suicide probes to see a tech building, or even the timing of their second gas. No, because 2 hatch mutas, makes you react by slowing down your teach to get proper defence. Also muta micro is very strong nowadays, so it's possible to open with 2 hatch muta and make it in the long game without killing the protoss on the spot or dying after he sets proper defences. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:24 IntoTheWow wrote: No, because 2 hatch mutas, makes you react by slowing down your teach to get proper defence. Also muta micro is very strong nowadays, so it's possible to open with 2 hatch muta and make it in the long game without killing the protoss on the spot or dying after he sets proper defences. uhm, two hatch builds are cheese in zvp, especially after you open 9 pool speed. zerg can't win unless he kills expo, natural, or a shitton of probes. it doesn't matter if your tech is slowed down to get proper defense. zvp cheeses are much stronger, versatile and common than pvz cheeses. i thought everyone knew this :o it's something you just have to live with EDIT: after reading all the posts... since when are 9 pool into two hatch lurker drop, two hatch muta, hydra all in, and ling all in NOT CHEESES? wtf | ||
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:28 OneOther wrote: uhm, two hatch builds are cheese in zvp, especially after you open 9 pool speed. zerg can't win unless he kills expo, natural, or a shitton of probes. it doesn't matter if your tech is slowed down to get proper defense. zvp cheeses are much stronger, versatile and common than pvz cheeses. i thought everyone knew this :o it's something you just have to live with with modern pvz EDIT: after reading all the posts... since when are 9 pool into two hatch lurker drop, two hatch muta, hydra all in, and ling all in NOT CHEESES? wtf thats what I'm saying. Anything involving <= 3 hatches is very cheese. They offer no transitions, in many cases delayed tech, inferior economy, and if they don't do any damage, it's gg. Afaik that's the definition of cheese. In any case OP, if they get ling speed you immediately know something is up, so throw down a third cannon. Before your scouting probe dies send another one out to some random spot on the map. When his lings come and do their contain thing to not let a scout out, run your hidden probe into his base. If you get in, you see their tech. React appropriately and win. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5165 Posts
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TimmyMac
Canada499 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 04:04 TimmyMac wrote: You guys are idiots. Is a huge attack to his natural cheese too if you don't win? Hell, is any circumstance where make an action and lose a lot of units cheese? After all, it puts you behind right? No need to call others idiots if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the difference between an all-in cheese attack and a regular battle? It's considered cheese if your entire strategy and game depend on one single tactic or attack. You sacrifice economy for it and you can't catch up if it fails. If you engage after playing regularly, then the result doesn't determine if it's cheese. Seriously? You don't know what you are talking about. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
On November 17 2009 00:20 BabyRhino wrote: I haven't been playing vs zerg a lot, mostly play zvp zvt, and i very RARELY get cheesed zvp, maybe once every 20-30 games. and i don't even remember the last time someone bunker rush me zvt and I always 12hat. (D+ ~ C-) but recently playing some pvz at D level, 3/4 of the games involve 2 base cheese... 2 hat muta, ling all in, almost no one does anything remotely similar to the standard. so yea, is this pretty normal or am I just unlucky in playing all the cheese zergs. I dont know what you consider standard, but given the game situations 2 hatcheries for a zerg player sounds pretty standard to me. Of course, assuming you are doing an FE, I guess you could say 3 hatchery builds will be the ones that will best face your strategy and decide the game slowly through skirmishes advantages. I do agree 2 hatch zergling all in, 2 hatch hydralisks, or even 3 hatch hydralisks as a response to your FE may be kind of lame. I think 2 hatch mutas is a timing based attack as the mutas will arrive at your base before the corsairs are out. In any case, zerg can make a lot of drones before the spire is ready and take his third hatch while the mutas are building. I dont see it as an all in. Same may go for 3 hatch hydras, depending on the number they make. It will force you to delay your gateways in favor of cannoning your natural, since you wont have archives when the hydras arrive. But consider the fact that Zerg is naturally a "cheesy" race due to their larva system, their tech switching paired with larva accumulation makes this flexibility one of its main strength, and a very viable option to win the game. As a Protoss player myself, I would recommend choosing a motw when they come out and learn the best possible way to FE in each position. A strong wall that enables you to seal the passageway with 1-3 probes, gives enough room to align cannons vs hydra rushes, and still protect your nat vs air strikes should discourage any Zerg on attempting these kind of builds. You will actually be thankful when they try it, because they will have the short end of the stick. Most likely they will fail against your adaptation, leaving you on top. Good scouting is the next key issue. Keep your scouting probe alive, if it dies, send another probe to hide in the map for later scouting, make a corsair if it all fails. Gather info on whatever you can to judge their mindset: Drones count, early gas, larva count, number of expos, etc. There is not a whole lot of cheese a Zerg can do besides the ones you have mentioned. I played purely PvZ from D to a bit over D+ with 11-0 and I dont think I was cheesed even once. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
On November 17 2009 05:11 OneOther wrote: No need to call others idiots if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the difference between an all-in cheese attack and a regular battle? It's considered cheese if your entire strategy and game depend on one single tactic or attack. You sacrifice economy for it and you can't catch up if it fails. If you engage after playing regularly, then the result doesn't determine if it's cheese. Seriously? You don't know what you are talking about. This is very subjective, since it all depends on the game. It is a similar version to a PvP where both went to gateways zealots, then one Protoss made a nexus + forge and the other scouted it a bit too late. Obviously the protoss who choose to tech instead would be behind in most aspects if he just tried throwing a nexus of his own (again, all depends on timing). This Protoss may be compelled to just cut on probes and attempt an all in build with 4 gateways dragoon range, or 3 gates reaver siege... It just doesnt leave him a lot of options. Might be the same for Zerg... Zerg goes 12 pool, makes 8 zerglings then find out Protoss went FE... moreover find the Walling in was not perfect and thinks he may be able to walk past the cannons/destroy them. Should this Zerg just be a baller , try expand to fight a macro battle he is already behind when he detected a possible weakness? It is all circumstantial... | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 05:52 Leath wrote: This is very subjective, since it all depends on the game. It is a similar version to a PvP where both went to gateways zealots, then one Protoss made a nexus + forge and the other scouted it a bit too late. Obviously the protoss who choose to tech instead would be behind in most aspects if he just tried throwing a nexus of his own (again, all depends on timing). This Protoss may be compelled to just cut on probes and attempt an all in build with 4 gateways dragoon range, or 3 gates reaver siege... It just doesnt leave him a lot of options. Might be the same for Zerg... Zerg goes 12 pool, makes 8 zerglings then find out Protoss went FE... moreover find the Walling in was not perfect and thinks he may be able to walk past the cannons/destroy them. Should this Zerg just be a baller , try expand to fight a macro battle he is already behind when he detected a possible weakness? It is all circumstantial... Don't make this much more difficult than it needs to be  We all know that two hatch all-in variations following 9 pool speed are "cheese" because they are do or die | ||
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Nytefish
United Kingdom4282 Posts
Also if you don't scout/prepare for cheese you're actually taking short-cuts and gaining an advantage that may win you a large proportion of ladder games, but in important matches like clan wars you're just going to lose the important set. | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
Just scout it buddy.; And cannon up like there is NO tomorrow | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
On November 17 2009 06:03 OneOther wrote: Don't make this much more difficult than it needs to be We all know that two hatch all-in variations following 9 pool speed are "cheese" because they are do or dieWell whatever the official definition of cheese is, for me there's one thing that distinguishes cheese from all in. If you're cheesing, you want to get your attack rolling before he can scout you and get his response set up. If you're doing an all in (non cheese variant), the scout will arrive at your base before things start rolling, but you try to deny the scout somehow. So 3 hatch ling is all in, but not really cheesy, whereas double proxy racks ... fucking cheese (and all in, since cheese is a subset of all in). Which is why 2 hatch muta is all in but doesn't feel cheesy, since if I'm not a tard (or you are an amazing gosu) I will see it coming well in advance and have plenty of time to prepare a response. Oh the other hand if you 5 pool me on a 4 player map and I scout your position last... ;x | ||
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Epicfailguy
Norway893 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:36 tossinYoSalad wrote: thats what I'm saying. Anything involving <= 3 hatches is very cheese. So anything thats less than or equal to 3 hatch in pvz is cheese? | ||
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SkylineSC
United States564 Posts
saying "scout better" when your opponent open speedling is just not really valid. yea i can sneak out another probe but it can be caught and only so much can be done. | ||
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WhiteNights
United States252 Posts
what is this "two hatch muta is cheese" business next thing you know 9/10 gates or two rax academy will be cheese | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
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eMbrace
United States1300 Posts
like i used to open with 9 pool speedlings versus toss almost every game because it's a viable build and I wanted to get it down. every so often I'd get a opponent who scouts my 9 pool and says "haha nice cheese" -- and i'm like... thanks? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
And there's always people that think 9pool is cheese. They're retarded. You can't really do much about that. There's some people that think overpool is strictly a 2v2 build that sucks against forge fe. What can you do. | ||
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 09:05 WhiteNights wrote: zerg cheese: 4 pool, 5 pool, 6 pool, drone drilling, one hatch muta, one hatch lurker, 9 hatch lings what is this "two hatch muta is cheese" business next thing you know 9/10 gates or two rax academy will be cheese so if you make one more hatchery, it's not cheese anymore? besides, every zerg takes an expo. zergs need to kill the probe before doing any kind of cheese and if the protoss sees zerg is going fast lair off one base, it won't work. is 9 pool into two hatch muta/lurker/hydra all-in/ling all-in do or die? yes. is 9/10 gate or two rax academic do or die? no. On November 17 2009 08:43 BabyRhino wrote: i think builds that involve speedling to deny scout, then make X number of a unit and attack before sairs comeout to either win the game outright is cheesy. saying "scout better" when your opponent open speedling is just not really valid. yea i can sneak out another probe but it can be caught and only so much can be done. nice post. and like you were saying, if that certain strategy fails, the zerg is dead. lol @ all the people saying "make a lot of cannons." have you ever played a game of pvz in your life? for the last time, 9 pool speedling into two hatch muta/lurker/hydra all-in/ling all-in is cheese. | ||
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ejac
United States1195 Posts
Also, the fact is, unconventional play is not standard because it has some crucial weakness, and after playing against that strategy a couple times, you should be able to identify the strategy immediately and know how to exploit it. Loosing to a build you've never seen before is annoying, but you shouldn't let it happen twice. | ||
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meeple
Canada10211 Posts
On November 17 2009 15:30 ejac wrote: imo, there are really only 3 cheese builds, BBS, sub 9pool, and proxy 2gate. All because a build is highly aggressive or is not standard, does not make it cheese. This is coming from a zerg who fucking hates when terran 8rax. Starcraft would be extremely lame if we all did the standard game. Also, the fact is, unconventional play is not standard because it has some crucial weakness, and after playing against that strategy a couple times, you should be able to identify the strategy immediately and know how to exploit it. Loosing to a build you've never seen before is annoying, but you shouldn't let it happen twice. I thought it was accepted that any build that is relatively all-in is considered cheese, included 14-cc, 12-hatch etc... | ||
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gyth
657 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28701 Posts
On November 17 2009 06:03 OneOther wrote: Don't make this much more difficult than it needs to be We all know that two hatch all-in variations following 9 pool speed are "cheese" because they are do or diethis is retarded and not remotely true. well, if you define it as "allin" then sure, but that's not really it.. it's about 1: wanting to possibly win the game earlier, and 2: wanting to turn the game into a low econ game.. going 2 hatch muta after a 9pool speed sacrifices your own economy so you will be able to hurt his economy. the main way it differs from cutting probes or cannons or zealots for an earlier stargate is that it has the potential to outright kill protoss and not only hurt him, whereas an earlier stargate just lets you hurt zerg a little more. calling it "cheese" makes the term "cheese" completely worthless - you end up defining "non-cheese" starcraft as a game of nothing more than mechanics. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I've spent a life time training with friends who complain that anything that works vs terran OR isn't the absolute standard is cheese.. this is a very familiar subject for me rofl | ||
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JFKWT
Singapore1442 Posts
On November 17 2009 03:10 s.Q.uelched wrote: I put cheese inmy sandwiches. do they get squelched? | ||
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