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SkylineSC
United States564 Posts
but recently playing some pvz at D level, 3/4 of the games involve 2 base cheese... 2 hat muta, ling all in, almost no one does anything remotely similar to the standard. so yea, is this pretty normal or am I just unlucky in playing all the cheese zergs.  | ||
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
you can't expect all zergs to go 3 hatch builds. | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
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iMarshall
Norway190 Posts
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Ideas
United States8174 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On November 17 2009 00:20 BabyRhino wrote: I haven't been playing vs zerg a lot, mostly play zvp zvt, and i very RARELY get cheesed zvp, maybe once every 20-30 games. and i don't even remember the last time someone bunker rush me zvt and I always 12hat. (D+ ~ C-) but recently playing some pvz at D level, 3/4 of the games involve 2 base cheese... 2 hat muta, ling all in, almost no one does anything remotely similar to the standard. so yea, is this pretty normal or am I just unlucky in playing all the cheese zergs. rofl If you're dying to 2hatch muta in PvZ and the guy didn't open with 9poolspeed, you really have no excuse for dying. | ||
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Raptor[eigen].
Canada18 Posts
Watching replays of games that you lose and practice should both help. | ||
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Equaoh
Canada427 Posts
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Gnarly
United States151 Posts
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Leg[end]
United States241 Posts
On November 17 2009 00:23 Xenocide_Knight wrote: 2 hatch builds are hardly cheese.. you can't expect all zergs to go 3 hatch builds. | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19141 Posts
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:09 Nyovne wrote: How is this cheese, and I'm dutch/french so I know a thing or two on the topic. this post confuses me. in zvp 2base builds are basically cheese because if they dont do an ass-ton of damage the zerg will be extremely far behind. 2hatch builds are VERY cheese... as far as beating them, scout alot.. it's worth it to suicide probes to see a tech building, or even the timing of their second gas. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32280 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:13 tossinYoSalad wrote: this post confuses me. in zvp 2base builds are basically cheese because if they dont do an ass-ton of damage the zerg will be extremely far behind. 2hatch builds are VERY cheese... as far as beating them, scout alot.. it's worth it to suicide probes to see a tech building, or even the timing of their second gas. No, because 2 hatch mutas, makes you react by slowing down your teach to get proper defence. Also muta micro is very strong nowadays, so it's possible to open with 2 hatch muta and make it in the long game without killing the protoss on the spot or dying after he sets proper defences. | ||
OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:24 IntoTheWow wrote: No, because 2 hatch mutas, makes you react by slowing down your teach to get proper defence. Also muta micro is very strong nowadays, so it's possible to open with 2 hatch muta and make it in the long game without killing the protoss on the spot or dying after he sets proper defences. uhm, two hatch builds are cheese in zvp, especially after you open 9 pool speed. zerg can't win unless he kills expo, natural, or a shitton of probes. it doesn't matter if your tech is slowed down to get proper defense. zvp cheeses are much stronger, versatile and common than pvz cheeses. i thought everyone knew this :o it's something you just have to live with EDIT: after reading all the posts... since when are 9 pool into two hatch lurker drop, two hatch muta, hydra all in, and ling all in NOT CHEESES? wtf | ||
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tossinYoSalad
United States215 Posts
On November 17 2009 02:28 OneOther wrote: uhm, two hatch builds are cheese in zvp, especially after you open 9 pool speed. zerg can't win unless he kills expo, natural, or a shitton of probes. it doesn't matter if your tech is slowed down to get proper defense. zvp cheeses are much stronger, versatile and common than pvz cheeses. i thought everyone knew this :o it's something you just have to live with with modern pvz EDIT: after reading all the posts... since when are 9 pool into two hatch lurker drop, two hatch muta, hydra all in, and ling all in NOT CHEESES? wtf thats what I'm saying. Anything involving <= 3 hatches is very cheese. They offer no transitions, in many cases delayed tech, inferior economy, and if they don't do any damage, it's gg. Afaik that's the definition of cheese. In any case OP, if they get ling speed you immediately know something is up, so throw down a third cannon. Before your scouting probe dies send another one out to some random spot on the map. When his lings come and do their contain thing to not let a scout out, run your hidden probe into his base. If you get in, you see their tech. React appropriately and win. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5698 Posts
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TimmyMac
Canada499 Posts
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OneOther
United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 04:04 TimmyMac wrote: You guys are idiots. Is a huge attack to his natural cheese too if you don't win? Hell, is any circumstance where make an action and lose a lot of units cheese? After all, it puts you behind right? No need to call others idiots if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the difference between an all-in cheese attack and a regular battle? It's considered cheese if your entire strategy and game depend on one single tactic or attack. You sacrifice economy for it and you can't catch up if it fails. If you engage after playing regularly, then the result doesn't determine if it's cheese. Seriously? You don't know what you are talking about. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
On November 17 2009 00:20 BabyRhino wrote: I haven't been playing vs zerg a lot, mostly play zvp zvt, and i very RARELY get cheesed zvp, maybe once every 20-30 games. and i don't even remember the last time someone bunker rush me zvt and I always 12hat. (D+ ~ C-) but recently playing some pvz at D level, 3/4 of the games involve 2 base cheese... 2 hat muta, ling all in, almost no one does anything remotely similar to the standard. so yea, is this pretty normal or am I just unlucky in playing all the cheese zergs. I dont know what you consider standard, but given the game situations 2 hatcheries for a zerg player sounds pretty standard to me. Of course, assuming you are doing an FE, I guess you could say 3 hatchery builds will be the ones that will best face your strategy and decide the game slowly through skirmishes advantages. I do agree 2 hatch zergling all in, 2 hatch hydralisks, or even 3 hatch hydralisks as a response to your FE may be kind of lame. I think 2 hatch mutas is a timing based attack as the mutas will arrive at your base before the corsairs are out. In any case, zerg can make a lot of drones before the spire is ready and take his third hatch while the mutas are building. I dont see it as an all in. Same may go for 3 hatch hydras, depending on the number they make. It will force you to delay your gateways in favor of cannoning your natural, since you wont have archives when the hydras arrive. But consider the fact that Zerg is naturally a "cheesy" race due to their larva system, their tech switching paired with larva accumulation makes this flexibility one of its main strength, and a very viable option to win the game. As a Protoss player myself, I would recommend choosing a motw when they come out and learn the best possible way to FE in each position. A strong wall that enables you to seal the passageway with 1-3 probes, gives enough room to align cannons vs hydra rushes, and still protect your nat vs air strikes should discourage any Zerg on attempting these kind of builds. You will actually be thankful when they try it, because they will have the short end of the stick. Most likely they will fail against your adaptation, leaving you on top. Good scouting is the next key issue. Keep your scouting probe alive, if it dies, send another probe to hide in the map for later scouting, make a corsair if it all fails. Gather info on whatever you can to judge their mindset: Drones count, early gas, larva count, number of expos, etc. There is not a whole lot of cheese a Zerg can do besides the ones you have mentioned. I played purely PvZ from D to a bit over D+ with 11-0 and I dont think I was cheesed even once. | ||
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EtherealDeath
United States8366 Posts
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