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On November 17 2009 05:11 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 04:04 TimmyMac wrote:
You guys are idiots. Is a huge attack to his natural cheese too if you don't win? Hell, is any circumstance where make an action and lose a lot of units cheese? After all, it puts you behind right? No need to call others idiots if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the difference between an all-in cheese attack and a regular battle? It's considered cheese if your entire strategy and game depend on one single tactic or attack. You sacrifice economy for it and you can't catch up if it fails. If you engage after playing regularly, then the result doesn't determine if it's cheese. Seriously? You don't know what you are talking about.
This is very subjective, since it all depends on the game.
It is a similar version to a PvP where both went to gateways zealots, then one Protoss made a nexus + forge and the other scouted it a bit too late.
Obviously the protoss who choose to tech instead would be behind in most aspects if he just tried throwing a nexus of his own (again, all depends on timing). This Protoss may be compelled to just cut on probes and attempt an all in build with 4 gateways dragoon range, or 3 gates reaver siege... It just doesnt leave him a lot of options.
Might be the same for Zerg... Zerg goes 12 pool, makes 8 zerglings then find out Protoss went FE... moreover find the Walling in was not perfect and thinks he may be able to walk past the cannons/destroy them. Should this Zerg just be a baller , try expand to fight a macro battle he is already behind when he detected a possible weakness?
It is all circumstantial...
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United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 05:52 Leath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 05:11 OneOther wrote:On November 17 2009 04:04 TimmyMac wrote:
You guys are idiots. Is a huge attack to his natural cheese too if you don't win? Hell, is any circumstance where make an action and lose a lot of units cheese? After all, it puts you behind right? No need to call others idiots if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the difference between an all-in cheese attack and a regular battle? It's considered cheese if your entire strategy and game depend on one single tactic or attack. You sacrifice economy for it and you can't catch up if it fails. If you engage after playing regularly, then the result doesn't determine if it's cheese. Seriously? You don't know what you are talking about. This is very subjective, since it all depends on the game. It is a similar version to a PvP where both went to gateways zealots, then one Protoss made a nexus + forge and the other scouted it a bit too late. Obviously the protoss who choose to tech instead would be behind in most aspects if he just tried throwing a nexus of his own (again, all depends on timing). This Protoss may be compelled to just cut on probes and attempt an all in build with 4 gateways dragoon range, or 3 gates reaver siege... It just doesnt leave him a lot of options. Might be the same for Zerg... Zerg goes 12 pool, makes 8 zerglings then find out Protoss went FE... moreover find the Walling in was not perfect and thinks he may be able to walk past the cannons/destroy them. Should this Zerg just be a baller , try expand to fight a macro battle he is already behind when he detected a possible weakness? It is all circumstantial...
Don't make this much more difficult than it needs to be  We all know that two hatch all-in variations following 9 pool speed are "cheese" because they are do or die
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I'm always glad to fight against cheese. They're only strong because they're unexpected, so once you learn how to look out for and defend against them you won't be surprised the next time.
Also if you don't scout/prepare for cheese you're actually taking short-cuts and gaining an advantage that may win you a large proportion of ladder games, but in important matches like clan wars you're just going to lose the important set.
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2 hatch isnt "cheese" per se.
Just scout it buddy.; And cannon up like there is NO tomorrow
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On November 17 2009 06:03 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 05:52 Leath wrote:On November 17 2009 05:11 OneOther wrote:On November 17 2009 04:04 TimmyMac wrote:
You guys are idiots. Is a huge attack to his natural cheese too if you don't win? Hell, is any circumstance where make an action and lose a lot of units cheese? After all, it puts you behind right? No need to call others idiots if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the difference between an all-in cheese attack and a regular battle? It's considered cheese if your entire strategy and game depend on one single tactic or attack. You sacrifice economy for it and you can't catch up if it fails. If you engage after playing regularly, then the result doesn't determine if it's cheese. Seriously? You don't know what you are talking about. This is very subjective, since it all depends on the game. It is a similar version to a PvP where both went to gateways zealots, then one Protoss made a nexus + forge and the other scouted it a bit too late. Obviously the protoss who choose to tech instead would be behind in most aspects if he just tried throwing a nexus of his own (again, all depends on timing). This Protoss may be compelled to just cut on probes and attempt an all in build with 4 gateways dragoon range, or 3 gates reaver siege... It just doesnt leave him a lot of options. Might be the same for Zerg... Zerg goes 12 pool, makes 8 zerglings then find out Protoss went FE... moreover find the Walling in was not perfect and thinks he may be able to walk past the cannons/destroy them. Should this Zerg just be a baller , try expand to fight a macro battle he is already behind when he detected a possible weakness? It is all circumstantial... Don't make this much more difficult than it needs to be We all know that two hatch all-in variations following 9 pool speed are "cheese" because they are do or die
Well whatever the official definition of cheese is, for me there's one thing that distinguishes cheese from all in. If you're cheesing, you want to get your attack rolling before he can scout you and get his response set up. If you're doing an all in (non cheese variant), the scout will arrive at your base before things start rolling, but you try to deny the scout somehow. So 3 hatch ling is all in, but not really cheesy, whereas double proxy racks ... fucking cheese (and all in, since cheese is a subset of all in).
Which is why 2 hatch muta is all in but doesn't feel cheesy, since if I'm not a tard (or you are an amazing gosu) I will see it coming well in advance and have plenty of time to prepare a response. Oh the other hand if you 5 pool me on a 4 player map and I scout your position last... ;x
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On November 17 2009 02:36 tossinYoSalad wrote:
thats what I'm saying. Anything involving <= 3 hatches is very cheese.
So anything thats less than or equal to 3 hatch in pvz is cheese?
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i think builds that involve speedling to deny scout, then make X number of a unit and attack before sairs comeout to either win the game outright is cheesy.
saying "scout better" when your opponent open speedling is just not really valid. yea i can sneak out another probe but it can be caught and only so much can be done.
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zerg cheese: 4 pool, 5 pool, 6 pool, drone drilling, one hatch muta, one hatch lurker, 9 hatch lings
what is this "two hatch muta is cheese" business
next thing you know 9/10 gates or two rax academy will be cheese
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I would take it as a chance to work on your early base defense, and go with the flow instead of letting it get to you.
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people seem to be calling everything that's not common a "cheese" strategy 0_o
like i used to open with 9 pool speedlings versus toss almost every game because it's a viable build and I wanted to get it down.
every so often I'd get a opponent who scouts my 9 pool and says "haha nice cheese" -- and i'm like...
thanks?
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2hatch builds in ZvP really are all-in/cheese/whatever though. They're seriously do or die, unlike in ZvT where 2hatch builds really aren't like that.
And there's always people that think 9pool is cheese. They're retarded. You can't really do much about that. There's some people that think overpool is strictly a 2v2 build that sucks against forge fe.
What can you do.
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United States10774 Posts
On November 17 2009 09:05 WhiteNights wrote:
zerg cheese: 4 pool, 5 pool, 6 pool, drone drilling, one hatch muta, one hatch lurker, 9 hatch lings
what is this "two hatch muta is cheese" business
next thing you know 9/10 gates or two rax academy will be cheese
so if you make one more hatchery, it's not cheese anymore? besides, every zerg takes an expo. zergs need to kill the probe before doing any kind of cheese and if the protoss sees zerg is going fast lair off one base, it won't work.
is 9 pool into two hatch muta/lurker/hydra all-in/ling all-in do or die? yes.
is 9/10 gate or two rax academic do or die? no.
On November 17 2009 08:43 BabyRhino wrote:
i think builds that involve speedling to deny scout, then make X number of a unit and attack before sairs comeout to either win the game outright is cheesy.
saying "scout better" when your opponent open speedling is just not really valid. yea i can sneak out another probe but it can be caught and only so much can be done.
nice post.
and like you were saying, if that certain strategy fails, the zerg is dead. lol @ all the people saying "make a lot of cannons." have you ever played a game of pvz in your life?
for the last time, 9 pool speedling into two hatch muta/lurker/hydra all-in/ling all-in is cheese.
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imo, there are really only 3 cheese builds, BBS, sub 9pool, and proxy 2gate. All because a build is highly aggressive or is not standard, does not make it cheese. This is coming from a zerg who fucking hates when terran 8rax. Starcraft would be extremely lame if we all did the standard game.
Also, the fact is, unconventional play is not standard because it has some crucial weakness, and after playing against that strategy a couple times, you should be able to identify the strategy immediately and know how to exploit it. Loosing to a build you've never seen before is annoying, but you shouldn't let it happen twice.
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On November 17 2009 15:30 ejac wrote:
imo, there are really only 3 cheese builds, BBS, sub 9pool, and proxy 2gate. All because a build is highly aggressive or is not standard, does not make it cheese. This is coming from a zerg who fucking hates when terran 8rax. Starcraft would be extremely lame if we all did the standard game.
Also, the fact is, unconventional play is not standard because it has some crucial weakness, and after playing against that strategy a couple times, you should be able to identify the strategy immediately and know how to exploit it. Loosing to a build you've never seen before is annoying, but you shouldn't let it happen twice.
I thought it was accepted that any build that is relatively all-in is considered cheese, included 14-cc, 12-hatch etc...
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Norway28910 Posts
On November 17 2009 06:03 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2009 05:52 Leath wrote:On November 17 2009 05:11 OneOther wrote:On November 17 2009 04:04 TimmyMac wrote:
You guys are idiots. Is a huge attack to his natural cheese too if you don't win? Hell, is any circumstance where make an action and lose a lot of units cheese? After all, it puts you behind right? No need to call others idiots if you have no idea what you are talking about. You don't know the difference between an all-in cheese attack and a regular battle? It's considered cheese if your entire strategy and game depend on one single tactic or attack. You sacrifice economy for it and you can't catch up if it fails. If you engage after playing regularly, then the result doesn't determine if it's cheese. Seriously? You don't know what you are talking about. This is very subjective, since it all depends on the game. It is a similar version to a PvP where both went to gateways zealots, then one Protoss made a nexus + forge and the other scouted it a bit too late. Obviously the protoss who choose to tech instead would be behind in most aspects if he just tried throwing a nexus of his own (again, all depends on timing). This Protoss may be compelled to just cut on probes and attempt an all in build with 4 gateways dragoon range, or 3 gates reaver siege... It just doesnt leave him a lot of options. Might be the same for Zerg... Zerg goes 12 pool, makes 8 zerglings then find out Protoss went FE... moreover find the Walling in was not perfect and thinks he may be able to walk past the cannons/destroy them. Should this Zerg just be a baller , try expand to fight a macro battle he is already behind when he detected a possible weakness? It is all circumstantial... Don't make this much more difficult than it needs to be We all know that two hatch all-in variations following 9 pool speed are "cheese" because they are do or die
this is retarded and not remotely true. well, if you define it as "allin" then sure, but that's not really it.. it's about 1: wanting to possibly win the game earlier, and 2: wanting to turn the game into a low econ game.. going 2 hatch muta after a 9pool speed sacrifices your own economy so you will be able to hurt his economy. the main way it differs from cutting probes or cannons or zealots for an earlier stargate is that it has the potential to outright kill protoss and not only hurt him, whereas an earlier stargate just lets you hurt zerg a little more. calling it "cheese" makes the term "cheese" completely worthless - you end up defining "non-cheese" starcraft as a game of nothing more than mechanics.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
also 2 hatch builds go against the "standard" fad play of the time which makes a lot of players really uncomfortable or messes up the strict timings they have for their vs 3 hatch play... all of which allows the 2 hatch player to play on more friendly terms (assuming they've practiced this).
I've spent a life time training with friends who complain that anything that works vs terran OR isn't the absolute standard is cheese.. this is a very familiar subject for me rofl
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On November 17 2009 03:10 s.Q.uelched wrote:
I put cheese inmy sandwiches.
do they get squelched?
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EPT
