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11/11/09
Music is something that should not be complex. Music should be nothing more than a message that a composer or music maker is trying to send to the audience. While the breadth and scope of the message can be varied, it none the less is simply a message; a message in feeling. Yes feeling is truly what all music strives to do at the core. Listening to good music should produce a change in perception, or cognition. Music should ignite a flame, or sooth a turbulent soul. It is in this that something as simple as music, becomes so variably complex.
This indescribable complexity compels music connoisseurs and music lovers of all kinds to try and define music. In fact it could almost be said that this is the basic goal of 'Listening to Classical Music' as a class. As a student, I am a staunch believer that music should never be dissected. Instead, only appreciated. To try and dissect music is to take everything that makes music so moving and beautiful, and turns to into nothing but a pedantic spectacle for academics. This is why Beethoven has been one of my most favored composers.
He cared little for the form or variations of his day, and simply forced his will upon music. He sculpted his works from sheer force, and left the listener to sort through his leviathan. In the end Beethoven understood that it was the listener, and the listener alone who would journey through every piece, every note, and crescendo. And at the end of it all create a feeling so incoherently complex, that no language could ever hope to quantify it. Clearly then it is no surprise that Beethoven's 9th symphony was the piece that had chosen me.
The entirety of the 9th Symphony is oh so grand, however for the sake of writing space- the 2nd movement in particular is where most of my focus will lie. To listen to this movement is sheer ecstasy. To me the movement is nothing more than the true definition of omnipotent power. The piece is so firmly set, that it is of little wonder why I imagine angelic battle scenes when listening to the piece. Yet when the movement nears the ending, it turns into something almost like grief or sorrow. It is at these more manic and somber tones that I come to think of Beethoven as a person.
Oddly enough Beethoven and I share the same birthday, and some other more peculiar traits. When I listen to the second movement I almost feel as if Beethoven is somehow trying to speak. To me I hear the words of someone who has come to understand humanity. His music is akin to his feelings towards us. Not as one of us (humanity), but one apart. It strikes me through his biography and music that he was a bit misanthropic, and rather sullen about the actions of men/women. The 9th movement is nothing short of a testament of Beethoven observations of humanity.
The manic sounds, grotesque and wonderful at the same time covey the true nature of people. At it's core the 2nd symphony is nothing more to me than music fighting tooth and nail for supremacy. This stunning duality between musics battle and the human existence cannot be ignored. Through Beethoven's misanthropic world view it is quite clear that he would probably agree that people are nothing more than animals.
Such a bold statement, comparing people to mongrels, but looking upon Beethoven's life it is of little wonder why one would think this way. I think that in many ways the 2nd symphony is Beethoven's pain. And yet the pain that he feels for us. When I listen to this piece, it always strikes me particularly when I begin to feel dragged down and somber. The loud and pulsing music between my ears does nothing more than to fester inside of me. Brining my self to the point of blind rage- when suddenly at 10:07 into the movement, everything is released in an orgasm of music.
I doubt that I have done the piece any justice with my silly interpretation. It feels as if I need to catch myself before I slide any further under the misanthropic sea. In a rather odd sense of irony I have committed the sin that I had mentioned in the first paragraph. Describing music is not a task that any one man should ever try and do. Yet here before me is 3 pages of just such material. Re-reading this piece of prose I can only shake my head and laugh. What have I accomplished here?
Perhaps now professor you can with out doubt know that I am a rather 'unique' individual, or perhaps some other conclusions can be made about my person. Personally it feels as if I have just let you see far to much of me. It is the most quizzical feeling knowing that the next time I see you, you will understand so much of me- and yet me so little of you. I don't know to feel uncomfortable, or how I should continue with this assignment.
Music is so personal. To me it feels as if this paper is indecent, it is nothing more than a piece of me on paper. Perhaps I should not fret. Beethoven has no doubt placed his soul into all his work, and has the world listen to it. Truly it takes a great man to do wonderful work. But to bring it forth for all to hear? That takes an extraordinary man.
 
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Fantastic piece, I mean really just one of the greatest achievements of any human ever. Of course I'm talking about the 9th  but it's a good and passionate piece of prose, good job 
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Well i am glad that you enjoyed it. Hope that my professor likes it as much lol. I need that grade 
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
Are we proofreading?
"Brining my self to the point of blind rage-" should be Bringing myself?
Actually that entire sentence sounds really weird.
There are also several fragments and other grammar stuff.
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16938 Posts
On November 13 2009 06:30 Kau wrote:
Are we proofreading?
"Brining my self to the point of blind rage-" should be Bringing myself?
Actually that entire sentence sounds really weird.
There are also several fragments and other grammar stuff.
Actually the original would be hilarious XD
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no not proof reading. i just posted for your enjoyment if that's your thing
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Grammar Nazism] +On November 13 2009 05:39 Misrah wrote:
11/11/09
Music is something that should not be complex. Music should be nothing more than a message that a composer or music maker is trying to send to the audience. While the breadth and scope of the message can vary, it is nonetheless simply a message of emotion ; a message in feeling (You can't use a semi-colon there). Evoking emotion is truly what all music strives to do at the core. Listening to good music should produce a change in perception,(no need for comma) or cognition. Music should ignite a flame,(no need for comma) or sooth a turbulent soul. It is in this that something as simple as music,(no need for comma) becomes so variably complex.
This indescribable complexity compels music connoisseurs and music lovers of all kinds to try and define music. In fact it could almost be said that this is the basic goal of 'Listening to Classical Music' as a class. As a student, I am a staunch believer that music should never be dissected. Instead, only, but appreciated. To try and dissect music is to take everything that makes music so moving and beautiful,(no need for comma) and turns toit into nothing but a pedantic spectacle for academics. This is why Beethoven has been one of my most favoredis one of my favorite composers.
He cared little for the form or variations of his day,(no need for comma) and simply forced his will upon music. He sculpted his works from sheer force,(no need for comma) and left the listener to sort through his leviathan. In the end Beethoven understood that it was the listener, and the listener alone who would journey through every piece, every note, and crescendo. And at the end of it all createcreating a feeling so incoherently complex,(no need for comma) that no language could ever hope to quantify it. Clearly then, it is no surprise that Beethoven's 9th symphony was the piece that had chosen me.
The entirety of the 9th Symphony is oh so(Not sure what to put here but "oh so" sounds really bad grand, however for the sake of writing space- the 2nd movement in particular is where most of my focus will lie. To listen to this movement is to experience sheer ecstasy. To me, the movement is nothing more than the true definition of omnipotent power. The piece is so firmly set,(no need for comma) that it is of little wonder why I imagine angelic battle scenes when listening to the piece. Yet when the movement nears the ending, it turns into something almost like grief or sorrow. It is at these more manic and somber tones that I come to think of Beethoven as a person.
Oddly enough Beethoven and I share the same birthday, and some other more peculiar traits. When I listen to the second movement I almost feel as if Beethoven is somehow trying to speak. To me, I hear the words of someone who has come to understand humanity. His music is akin to his feelings towards us. Not as one of us (humanity), but one apart.(I don't understand the previous sentence) It strikesappears to me as though, through his biography and music, that he was a bit misanthropic, and rather sullen about the actions of men/women. The 9th movement is nothing short of a testament of Beethoven's observations of humanity.
The manic sounds, grotesque and wonderful at the same time, covey the true nature of people. At it'sits core, the 2nd symphony is nothing more to me than music fighting tooth and nail for supremacy. This stunning duality between music's battle and the human existence cannot be ignored. Through Beethoven's misanthropic world view, it is quite clear that he would probably agree that people are nothing more than animals.
Such a bold statement, comparing people to mongrelsComparing people to mongrels is a bold statement, but looking upon Beethoven's life it is of little wonder why one would think this way. I think that in many ways the 2nd symphony is Beethoven's pain. And yet - the pain that he feels for us. When I listen to this piece, it always strikes me particularly when I begin to feel dragged down and somber. The loud and pulsing music between my ears does nothing more than to fester inside of me, bringing myself to the point of blind rage when suddenly, at 10:07 into the movement, everything is released in an orgasm of music.
I doubt that I have done the piece any justice with my silly interpretation. It feels as if I need to catch myself before I slide any further under the misanthropic sea. In a rather odd sense of irony, I have committed the sin that I had mentioned in the first paragraph. Describing music is not a task that any one mananyone should ever try andto do. Yet here before me is 3 pages of just such material. Re-reading this piece of prose I can only shake my head and laugh. What have I accomplished here?
Perhaps now professor you can without doubt knowrealize that I am a rather 'unique' individual, or perhaps some other conclusions can be made about my person. Personally it feels as if I have just let you see far too much of me. It is the most quizzical feeling: knowing that the next time I see you, you will understand so much of me- and yet me so little of you. I don't know to feel uncomfortable(What?), or how I should continue with this assignment.
Music is so personal. To me it feels as if this paper is indecent, it is nothing more than a piece of me on paper. Perhaps I should not fret. Beethoven has no doubt placed his soul into all his work, and has the world listen to it. Truly it takes a great man to do wonderful work. But to bring it forth for all to hear? That takes an extraordinary man.(The conclusion just sounds weird. I think there's too much of you and not enough about Beethoven or music, which is what this piece of writing is about)
Edit: Oh, so I take it you already handed it in, should I remove this then? I suppose I'll spoiler it.
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Thanks for all of that work- but i already handed it in lol. i wasn't asking for a proof read, just letting anyone read it.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Sorry to rain on your parade, but Beethoven had very rigid structures with his music. Mozart did what you described - just pour out music. Beethoven methodically pieced his works together, revised and edited countless times, and crafted his symphonies very precisely.
Don't get me wrong, I love Beethoven also for the feeling. But to say music should only be viewed as a whole is absurd.
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Baa?21242 Posts
Also are you talking about the Ninth's second movement, or are you talking about his second symphony...? Two very different pieces...
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Reminds me of Emerson. But then, I despise Emerson and everything he's ever written.
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Nice work! The seventh is my favourite, but damn, the ninth does make you feel like you could take on the world doesn't it?
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Baa?21242 Posts
On November 13 2009 08:28 GunSlinger wrote:
Nice work! The seventh is my favourite, but damn, the ninth does make you feel like you could take on the world doesn't it?
The third + fourth movement of the fifth does that too IMO. But yeah, the Ninth is beautiful. Especially the recapitulation in the first movement. Ahhh...
I just love Beethoven <3 Best composer out there TBH, better than Mozart, his main influence.
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Beethoven!
Yeah you have to be careful of your terminology here, symphony != movement. Maybe you were caught up in the moment too much, lol.
To Carnivorous: both Mozart and Beethoven wrote music in the classical period, in the classical style - no doubt - and most of their pieces followed the structure that the piece was meant for. For example, when they wrote a "sonata" for piano, they both made sure that for sonata-allegro form movements, it followed the sonata-allegro structure, for rondo movements, it followed the rondo structure, etc.
It is evident, however, that Beethoven challenged the system more than Mozart did. In sheer number of music composed, Mozart wins (and there's even a debate on how it's impossible for Mozart to have composed all the "Mozart" pieces because there's simply too much). However, many of Mozart's symphonies, concertos, sonatas, etc. do follow the format without much variation. His themes and motives are indeed very "spontaneous" at times, and maybe his "genius-ness" allowed him to write music fluently and at great speed, but those pieces did not push the boundaries of the classical music structure.
Beethoven did push it. Beethoven was the first composer to incorporate a choir (and choral parts) into a symphony. He expanded the size of the orchestra, adding more power and variability in sound. Beethoven also wrote two-movement sonatas (very rare) because he felt that there was no need for a 3rd and 4th movement for them. He also wrote highly complex music towards the later part of his career that transcended classical structures and classical harmony (check out his fugue - I think it was actually a double fugue). In his later sonatas (I'm kind of biased towards sonatas because I've played all 32), he pushes his harmonies beyond classical boundaries and those sonatas feel like you're playing a piece from the romantic period. For those reasons, musicians worldwide acknowledge Beethoven for igniting the change of music period (from classical to romantic).
I'm sure there are many examples (within Mozart and Beethoven repertoire) that lie outside (or prove wrong) my points above, but in generality, I believe what I said stands correct.
One particular example stands out (because by some chance, I was just playing it a few minutes ago): Beethoven's sonata #8 "Pathetique", 1st movement.
- Instead of bang on starting with theme1, he starts with a slow introduction. The introduction theme is reused several times in later parts as sort of an "interlude" between major sections/themes. Introduction section is quite dramatic also - lots of streaky notes, sudden dynamics(volume) changes.
- Exposition
- Theme1 (all sonata-allegro forms include theme1, so nothing unusual here)
- Transition/bridge (material based on theme1)
- Theme2: Here, the structural part is aligned with classical style, but the key he went to is unconventional. C- theme1's usually end up in Eb+ theme2's (relative major), less rare is C+ (tonic major), and even less rare is G- (dominant, minor key). Instead, Beethoven goes for Eb-! Grouping this theme with the transition is almost impossible because there is definitely a separate motive going on here in its own stable key.
- Theme3: Although some analysts start "codetta" from here, many others (including myself) argue that there is enough content and character here to call it a theme3. Almost no other sonatas have a theme3 in the exposition. Theme3 is also in Eb+, which gives another reason to call it a theme (since it's in the usual key for a theme following theme1).
- Codetta: the usual, however, Beethoven ends it in an imperfect cadence in G-, which is both unusual in key and cadence type. 99% of sonata-allegro form expositions end in perfect cadence, theme2 key. Here we have imperfect cadence, dominant-minor key.
- Development
- Composers were free to variate themes from exposition here and jump around between keys, so what goes on here is pretty much up for grabs and blablabla. A notable thing to mention is that a small segment of interlude is inserted here, based on the opening motive from the introduction.
- Recapitulation
- Theme1 returns (no introduction theme between development and recapitulation)
- Bridge/transition (follows the usual classical structure - edited/shortened to lead back to theme1 key)
- Theme2 returns (in home key!) Of course theme2 should return in home key, but remember you started theme2 in an irregular key.
- Theme3 returns (in home key)
- Brief return of the slow introduction theme
- and Coda! This piece is so well-loved by many pianists because 1) it's not technically challenging 2) the themes are 'catchy', and 3) kids love to be emotional on the piano because they think it looks good. Actually, I hate it when #3 above happens because it really ruins it for me...
Yep... Beethoven!
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Baa?21242 Posts
I guess I was unclear in my terminology too. When I say Beethoven followed a rigid structure, I didn't mean he complied unquestioningly with the standard, but rather that he had a very specific plan in mind for each of his compositions. I was challenging the OP's idea that Beethoven just wrote everything as a whole based one "feeling," when in fact I believe Beethoven was one of the most meticulous of the composers, carefully crafting each part, and then carefully adjusting to put them together.
But that's a very nice talk about Pathetique, because that really also enforces my point - music is composed in parts, so to reject dissecting music is ridiculous IMO.
And as for your point 3, it really is a delicate issue. Beethoven was the father of Romantic music, so there has to be a lot of force and emotion behind playing. It's all about the balance between not going overboard I guess.
I personally feel Kempff does a good job of performing Beethoven when balancing conservative playing while still conveying the emotion present in the piece.
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Yes, OpticalShot is right, Beethoven was far more progressive than Mozart, probably the most progressive composer of all time, though you can debate that with Debussy or Schoenberg etc. Despite the fact that Mozart seems "effortless", "spontaneous" and "fluent" he nevertheless happily stayed within the formal constraints of the Classical period. But it is true that Beethoven was far more meticulous with his compositions with constant revision and editing. And the OP is exactly right when describing Beethoven as pure force of will in music, a statement made so true in light of the fact that he reached the unequivocal peak of music while he was deaf.
On another note, I think if you start listening to the 9th, the second movement with its famous tune is immediately appealing, and certainly it is no doubt a great movement. However the more you become acquainted with it the more you realize that the movements in order of "greatness" are: 4th, 3rd, 1st, 2nd or thereabouts. The 1st is one of my favourites. In typical Beethoven fashion he seems to pull Promethean fire out of very simple but "deep" musical themes.
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Hmmm, Kempff? I'll look him up in youtube, thanks for the recommendation.
Personally I've listened to far too many kids just wrecking masterpiece after masterpiece with their incompetency and super-hyped ego in high school (and some even in university years!), my ears could use some purging.
My favourite movement of the 9th symphony is the 1st - and my favourite Beethoven (that I can play alone) is the Appassionata.
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On November 13 2009 06:57 Kau wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Grammar Nazism] +On November 13 2009 05:39 Misrah wrote:
11/11/09
Music is something that should not be complex. Music should be nothing more than a message that a composer or music maker is trying to send to the audience. While the breadth and scope of the message can vary, it is nonetheless simply a message of emotion ; a message in feeling (You can't use a semi-colon there). Evoking emotion is truly what all music strives to do at the core. Listening to good music should produce a change in perception,(no need for comma) or cognition. Music should ignite a flame,(no need for comma) or sooth a turbulent soul. It is in this that something as simple as music,(no need for comma) becomes so variably complex.
This indescribable complexity compels music connoisseurs and music lovers of all kinds to try and define music. In fact it could almost be said that this is the basic goal of 'Listening to Classical Music' as a class. As a student, I am a staunch believer that music should never be dissected. Instead, only, but appreciated. To try and dissect music is to take everything that makes music so moving and beautiful,(no need for comma) and turns toit into nothing but a pedantic spectacle for academics. This is why Beethoven has been one of my most favoredis one of my favorite composers.
He cared little for the form or variations of his day,(no need for comma) and simply forced his will upon music. He sculpted his works from sheer force,(no need for comma) and left the listener to sort through his leviathan. In the end Beethoven understood that it was the listener, and the listener alone who would journey through every piece, every note, and crescendo. And at the end of it all createcreating a feeling so incoherently complex,(no need for comma) that no language could ever hope to quantify it. Clearly then, it is no surprise that Beethoven's 9th symphony was the piece that had chosen me.
The entirety of the 9th Symphony is oh so(Not sure what to put here but "oh so" sounds really bad grand, however for the sake of writing space- the 2nd movement in particular is where most of my focus will lie. To listen to this movement is to experience sheer ecstasy. To me, the movement is nothing more than the true definition of omnipotent power. The piece is so firmly set,(no need for comma) that it is of little wonder why I imagine angelic battle scenes when listening to the piece. Yet when the movement nears the ending, it turns into something almost like grief or sorrow. It is at these more manic and somber tones that I come to think of Beethoven as a person.
Oddly enough Beethoven and I share the same birthday, and some other more peculiar traits. When I listen to the second movement I almost feel as if Beethoven is somehow trying to speak. To me, I hear the words of someone who has come to understand humanity. His music is akin to his feelings towards us. Not as one of us (humanity), but one apart.(I don't understand the previous sentence) It strikesappears to me as though, through his biography and music, that he was a bit misanthropic, and rather sullen about the actions of men/women. The 9th movement is nothing short of a testament of Beethoven's observations of humanity.
The manic sounds, grotesque and wonderful at the same time, covey the true nature of people. At it'sits core, the 2nd symphony is nothing more to me than music fighting tooth and nail for supremacy. This stunning duality between music's battle and the human existence cannot be ignored. Through Beethoven's misanthropic world view, it is quite clear that he would probably agree that people are nothing more than animals.
Such a bold statement, comparing people to mongrelsComparing people to mongrels is a bold statement, but looking upon Beethoven's life it is of little wonder why one would think this way. I think that in many ways the 2nd symphony is Beethoven's pain. And yet - the pain that he feels for us. When I listen to this piece, it always strikes me particularly when I begin to feel dragged down and somber. The loud and pulsing music between my ears does nothing more than to fester inside of me, bringing myself to the point of blind rage when suddenly, at 10:07 into the movement, everything is released in an orgasm of music.
I doubt that I have done the piece any justice with my silly interpretation. It feels as if I need to catch myself before I slide any further under the misanthropic sea. In a rather odd sense of irony, I have committed the sin that I had mentioned in the first paragraph. Describing music is not a task that any one mananyone should ever try andto do. Yet here before me is 3 pages of just such material. Re-reading this piece of prose I can only shake my head and laugh. What have I accomplished here?
Perhaps now professor you can without doubt knowrealize that I am a rather 'unique' individual, or perhaps some other conclusions can be made about my person. Personally it feels as if I have just let you see far too much of me. It is the most quizzical feeling: knowing that the next time I see you, you will understand so much of me- and yet me so little of you. I don't know to feel uncomfortable(What?), or how I should continue with this assignment.
Music is so personal. To me it feels as if this paper is indecent, it is nothing more than a piece of me on paper. Perhaps I should not fret. Beethoven has no doubt placed his soul into all his work, and has the world listen to it. Truly it takes a great man to do wonderful work. But to bring it forth for all to hear? That takes an extraordinary man.(The conclusion just sounds weird. I think there's too much of you and not enough about Beethoven or music, which is what this piece of writing is about) Edit: Oh, so I take it you already handed it in, should I remove this then? I suppose I'll spoiler it.
I can't believe how long you've spent proofreading this. rofl
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Jeez i had no idea that my really crappy paper would pull in this many people that know so much more about the ol gray hairs than i lol. Very educational reading your posts.
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I'm a singer myself, and I've sung the choir part of this piece (bass). I'm especially a fan of the march (tenor solo), The part leading to the march is also beautiful (und der Cherub steht vor Gott!). I'm proud I've had the privilege to perform it
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EPT
