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This is (of course) a direct response to the front page article Bandwagon Broodwar which can be found here
Let me start off by clearly defining where I agree and disagree with hotbid
I agree that new fans should not be harassed by old fans. Being an old fan doesn't give you any special rights or privileges to bash newcomers. However feel free to bash any bandwagon jumpers.
I disagree that starcraft is more entertaining today or that starcraft "sucked back then". On the entertainment level its simply different which comes down to viewer preference. On that level, oranges aren't "better" than ice cream. As far as player skill I will address that in this article.
The two main points I want to address are
1) "bandwagon jumping" is okay.
2) Boxer sucks… (that I cannot abide)
Allow me to sum up Hot_Bids arguments paragraph by paragraph
1) New is better
2) Everyone is a bandwagon fan since the baseline motive for becoming a fan is being enamored by skill. Only successful players have skill QED.
3) We shouldn't flame fanboys. Its not worthwhile rooting for a player that sucks.
The major issue I have with this article is the complete lack of understanding when it comes to the term bandwagon and corollary that the only reason to respect or follow a player/team is if they are winning.
I am not surprised at all that both Hotbid and many of the comment posters that followed have no conception of bandwagon jumping.
Let us consult a source of great wisdom... Urban Dictionary
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bandwagon
And I quote
1. bandwagon
When someone adopts a popular point of view for the primary purpose of recognition and/or acceptance by others.
2. To follow the group as it has the majority or a vast number of followers
3. What people will "ride" or get on when they want to be accepted, espescially in the NFL. People will get on the (Colts) bandwagon and suddenly become their fans because they are doing really good or because they have a large number of fans so they can be accepted.
For a real life example of this....
My roommate during my sophomore year of college rooted for the Lakers because Kobe Bryant (the lakers star player) looked EXACTLY like his favorite rapper Tupac Shakur (which sounds like a lot like a protoss name)
For comparison:
For Aiur
Uncanny resemblance....
What is wrong with Bandwagon Jumping?
The root question beneath this is: what is being a fan really about? How do fans and the players interact?
Fans live vicariously through the players. A fan emotionally connects with the team/players successes and failures.
That being said its important to examine the nature of the vicarious experience. I would hope that the entire point of following a particular player/team is to learn from their triumphs and struggles.
When you bandwagon jump you are only engaging in a fraction of the total experience and therefore completely missing out on important life lessons. Its like eating nothing but super sugary desserts.
Bandwagon jumping gives you the view that the strong were always strong, the skilled always skilled, the best always the best. In reality it takes HARD work to become good at anything. Winning doesn't happen in a vacuum. Additionally no one stays on the top forever.
True fans emotionally invest in the total experience. That includes the devastating losses and the lack luster wins.
While you get a quick cheap rush from victory with bandwagon jumping, dedicated fandom makes those same victorious all the more worthwhile and meaningful. Long term dedication gives us a small reflection of the long emotional perseverance of the victorious player themselves. .
Translating that into life lessons:
Isn't that the essence of starcraft itself; your first breach into C- as a direct result of continuous effort and emotional perseverance? In my opinion this is the essence of all competition and self improvement.
So in response to the article
1) New is better
This is a quote from later in the article.
That's not disrespecting him. Because sucking now doesn't change his win back then, and winning then doesn't
affect us recognizing he sucks today
Sorry to break it to you, but that is disrespecting boxer. You are putting all of his accomplishments in a single isolated time frame and determining your fandom based on that time frame. It’s a very shallow and empty dedication, particularly to someone who brought so much to the game.
Like I said earlier, no one stays on top forever. But people who put in the time and dedication, who fought for the right to be on the champions podium EARNED the respect to not be questioned like this. Boxer may not be playing his absolute best right now, but that does not mean he will always be playing poorly and that definitely doesn’t mean that its ok to suddenly stop supporting him, particularly if you are EVER going to call yourself a boxer fan in the present past or future.
I know its cliche but winning isn't everything. A player is more than his W-L ratio.
Continuing along the same lines of thought To quote Violetak,
If you are a fan of starcraft you are a fan of Boxer
Starcraft is what it is today directly due to the efforts of the great players of yester years. The game is different and exciting today BECAUSE OF THEM. Even recently Boxer and Oov spiced up the game by implementing Valkyries
Show some damn respect to the hardwork boxer, yellow and the other greats put in. Not saying you have to be super excited about their current level of play, but they have given us so much we owe it to them to give some support back.
This means you
Even if they aren't face stomping noobs right this second, they earned the respect and admiration of every starcraft fan through their pure guts and dedication.
2) Everyone is a bandwagon fan
BS. Plenty of people gave kwanro support even when he was playing terribly. I guarantee that even though he didn't take an MSL championship people will still be sticking with him the next season.
There are a ton of Savior fans supporting him right now even though he totally sucks at the moment.
This is true fan support in my opinion. Giving players encouragement particularly when they are down and when its the most difficult.
Next time you are at a low point in your life, you will find that you truly appreciate those that stick by you and encourage you through it. The people that are there on your good days and gone on your bad days mean exactly piss.
Addressing the opposite side of the argument, people become fans for more reasons than just “victories”. The classic example is FireBatHero for his goofy attitude. Focusing on pure play another good example is UpMagic. Upmagic loses CONSTANTLY. He always has. But he is still a great player to watch even if he doesn’t pull out a win in his latest 2 hr tvt game of epic maneuvering.
3) a) We shouldn't flame fanboys. b)Its not worthwhile rooting for a player that sucks.
Go ahead and flame fanboys. Fan opposition is one of the corner stones of sports at large. As long as it is lighthearted and in good fun it enhances the experience as a whole. True fans understand that getting jeered is part of the ebb and flow of the game itself.
Sometimes you get to rub it in, sometimes you are on the other end of the mockery. b) This is another problem with Bandwagon jumpers: they never stick around to receive what they give. If the going gets tough they just pick a new team or a new player to follow. It shows weak character. I would rather have 1 person that will stick it out with me through thick and thin than 1000 people who will abandon me at the first sign of trouble.
All that being said
How to not bandwagon jump
1) Follow a player/team because you like their personality, and/or play style, not just because they are winning.
Its ok to root for someone because they are exciting to watch. Even if they lose there is some visceral satisfaction that can be gleaned from the game. If wins are rare they are all the more exciting. Hunger is the best spice.
2) Stick with your player.
Yea maybe Nada Savior and Boxer may never take another championship. So what? Stick with them and relish the games they win. If they do rise back to prominence their victories are all the more satisfying.
Stork, Bisu and Xellos fans, you know what I am talking about.
3) Once you are a fan of a player/team, then gather with other people that share your viewpoint. Don't gather with a majority of people and then adopt their viewpoint.
This is the difference between sheep and individuals.
In conclusion, I hope that everyone takes notes from this and then applies those lessons directly to their local foreigners. I know that support means a lot more to guys like Whitera Brat_OK and Louder (maybe even CSL players) right now since they barely get recognized (let alone paid) for the TON of hardwork they put in.
I would also like to highlight sparkyzcast to all the OGN fans: http://www.youtube.com/sparkyzcast
 
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United States47024 Posts
Wow, this topic has really gotten a lot of attention recently.
On October 20 2009 09:57 Diggity wrote:
2) Stick with your player.
Yea maybe Nada Savior and Boxer may never take another championship. So what? Stick with them and relish the games they win. If they do rise back to prominence their victories are all the more satisfying.
Stork, Bisu and Xellos fans, you know what I am talking about.
I think this is really what it all leads up to. Everyone gravitates to the player that's doing well. That's natural. What separates normal fandom from bandwagoning is when they jump OFF. The average, well-respected fan sticks to their player and gives their support even when they're sucking. The bandwagoner jumps off and gets on the bandwagon for the next big thing.
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you know Hot_Bid said that respecting old Pro-gamers is a must?
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Diggity I goddamn love you ^>^ Very well written, and I agree 100%
That said, go WeMade, bitches!
+ Show Spoiler +I MISS KEKE, AND FIREFIST IS A SELLOUT, SHUNNN
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Always have been and always will be a Yellow fan.
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How not to Bandwagon: Chef's Improved Version
Cheer for who you want, when you want.
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stop bandwagoning on bandwagon threads
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Good response, although I think Hot_Bid was being a bit facetious.
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On October 20 2009 10:19 mahnini wrote:
stop bandwagoning on bandwagon threads
this please
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"Boxer currently sucks."
"I have lasting respect for Boxer."
These sentences are not mutually exclusive. What's there to debate?
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That example isn't an example of jumping on a bandwagon, unless everyone else was rooting for LA due to a resemblance between Kobe and Tupac. That's just your roommate liking the Lakers for a weird reason. If he had rooted for LA because they were the popular team to win, then it would be bandwagon-jumping. But according to you, that's not why. So it isn't.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 20 2009 10:19 mahnini wrote:
stop bandwagoning on bandwagon threads
The way to do that is to keep making bandwagon threads after no one else cares anymore. 
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Too bad Broodwar isn't decades old then we could be born into rooting for a team by default because of where you live/grew up.
I'm a third generation San Francisco 49ers fan. When I was a child I remember rooting for my team with my grandparents and parents at Candlestick Park. Even following them now during these bad years still hoping for a playoff run. I could never hop on a Patriots Bandwagon just because they break breaks records left and right.
Being born and raised into a Niner fanbase is something i'm proud of.
I hope the SC esports scene lasts long enough to have that kind of impact on some family's life.
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9070 Posts
On October 20 2009 10:23 Djabanete wrote:
"Boxer currently sucks."
"I have lasting respect for Boxer."
These sentences are not mutually exclusive. What's there to debate?
the point is , why should ppl care if boxer currently sucks. his quality of play is completely irrelevant outside the meaningless artosis style "best of all time" debate, which is all that matter.
Great blog btw and I'm not even bandwagoning
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1) click Quote
2) type 'this'
3) click Post
edit- well not quite. your example of band-wagon with Kobe Bryant is just not right. Also, I think you were too hard on Hot_Bid's saying that BoxeR sucks. Even though I wouldn't say that about him (or any progamer), I think it's a legitimate thing to say, even for a BoxeR fan.
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Great post. Very interesting response to HotBid's article, and although both of your writeups were great, I'd have to say I more agree with you. I too didn't quite understand how 'everyone' was a bandwagon fan.
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On October 20 2009 10:48 GGQ wrote:
1) click Quote
2) type 'this'
3) click Post
this.
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Diggity you are so awesome, thanks for writing this I really enjoyed it. I'm glad Hot_Bid wrote that because it's made some really nice threads pop up.
edit: On October 20 2009 10:51 NSANE.hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 10:48 GGQ wrote:
1) click Quote
2) type 'this'
3) click Post this.
fuck off
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Giving the smackdown, repping BoxeR, and promoting English Commentary. What a baller.
<3 Diggity.
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I love BoxeR and I think he sucks.
What disrespect is does not depend on just what you think it is. If I don't think it's disrespectful, then obviously I don't mean to be disrespectful. Why flame me when my intentions aren't what YOU interpret them to be?
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Much love Diggity, 5 stars.
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This article is stupid. It is no ones business which player you support or why. It makes no difference to anyone, so this is pointless.
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United States4796 Posts
Thanks Diggity!
Great article.
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On October 20 2009 10:43 disciple wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 10:23 Djabanete wrote:
"Boxer currently sucks."
"I have lasting respect for Boxer."
These sentences are not mutually exclusive. What's there to debate? the point is , why should ppl care if boxer currently sucks. his quality of play is completely irrelevant outside the meaningless artosis style "best of all time" debate, which is all that matter.
I completely agree with you. His quality of play is completely irrelevant to the fact that he will always have a place in the heart of every brood war fan. All I'm saying is we don't need to play make-believe.
Of course, people who diss old-schoolers just to "rub it in" ought to be banned.
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leomon
Canada169 Posts
On October 20 2009 09:57 Diggity wrote:
2) Stick with your player.
Yea maybe Nada Savior and Boxer may never take another championship. So what? Stick with them and relish the games they win. If they do rise back to prominence their victories are all the more satisfying.
Stork, Bisu and Xellos fans, you know what I am talking about.
Agree with this 100%
Great article.
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Bisu fan through and through. Its tough though. Its like he tries to fuck with his fans by losing to shitty players in his best match up all the time.
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You put my thoughts to e-paper.
Now a Diggity fan.
Seems like your roommate story isn't actually an example of a bandwagon fan though.
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Very well put.
I always like to make parallels to Federer. I'll do it here again.
Federer was and is the most dominating tennis player of all time.
But it has been a bumpy ride. He dominated everyone until sometime last year. Then he started loosing left and right and imidiatly people said he was too old, figured out, had dominated in an era of weak players. Being a fan of him became very tough because he had been dominating so much and now all these questions started appearing and he lost ALOT.
Nevertheless I continued rooting for him, becuase I love his approach to life and his playstyle.
Then suddently he beat Nadal in some random event this year on clay, jsut before French open (which he had never won). This was very exciting, simply due to the fact that he had been loosing so much (especially to Nadal).
The next 2 months was the best time to be a fan of Federer. He somehow bounced back and won French Open and right after Wimbledon in an epic final. This was so satisfying simply because he had been loosing so much an many other had lost faith in him.
As a fan these moments are what we should strive for. Had I simply "bandwagoned" and started rooting for some other guy that was currently winning, I would have felt very emtpy and shallow.
So root for your player even though he might lose. Because those few wins will be evenly more statisfying!
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Thanks Diggity for your thoughts!
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Well, I'm definitely not a bandwagon fan, seeing as how I always root for JangBi and put him in my fantasy team. 
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For the most part, I absolutely agree with your arguments, Diggity. The only part which I take issue with is this one:
On October 20 2009 09:57 Diggity wrote:Continuing along the same lines of thought To quote Violetak,
I do not know why you quoted VioleTAK, but that comment preety much flies in the face of everything you present in the rest of your post. What exactly makes Boxer so special from other great old-school progamers that he is "StarCraft incarnate"? How is jumping the Boxer bandwagon any more justified then jumping the bandwagon of other progamers? Doesn`t liking Boxer beacuse the majority likes him make someone a "sheep" as well?
I mean no disrespect to you or VioleTAK (or even Boxer, for that matter), but I find such statements to be a bit offencive, since it implies that "if you are not a Boxer fan, you are not a StarCraft fan". There are so many (successful) progamers in Brood War now and in it`s progaming history. Why do I have to automatically like Boxer if I want to qualify as a StarCraft fan? Isn`t the beauty of competitive sports precisely in the fact that different people are fans of different players?
Other then that, however, your rebuttal to HotBid`s article is quite good.
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On October 20 2009 09:57 Diggity wrote:This is a quote from later in the article. Show nested quote +That's not disrespecting him. Because sucking now doesn't change his win back then, and winning then doesn't
affect us recognizing he sucks today Sorry to break it to you, but that is disrespecting boxer. You are putting all of his accomplishments in a single isolated time frame and determining your fandom based on that time frame. It’s a very shallow and empty dedication, particularly to someone who brought so much to the game.
I dont see how HotBid`s sentence was disrespectful to Boxer. What Boxer did to Broodwar will never fade away because of his current performance, he doesnt deserve any less respect than he did in his prime.
But this doesnt change the fact that his play right now is probably below average, or if you want to say it this way, it sucks. I think the point he was trying to make is that why would most people who are relatively new to Starcraft pro scene be dedicated fans of older players if all they saw out of them is mostly bad play.
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Very good read thanks for posting well worth reading.
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On October 20 2009 10:03 TheYango wrote:Wow, this topic has really gotten a lot of attention recently. Show nested quote +On October 20 2009 09:57 Diggity wrote:
2) Stick with your player.
Yea maybe Nada Savior and Boxer may never take another championship. So what? Stick with them and relish the games they win. If they do rise back to prominence their victories are all the more satisfying.
Stork, Bisu and Xellos fans, you know what I am talking about.
I think this is really what it all leads up to. Everyone gravitates to the player that's doing well. That's natural. What separates normal fandom from bandwagoning is when they jump OFF. The average, well-respected fan sticks to their player and gives their support even when they're sucking. The bandwagoner jumps off and gets on the bandwagon for the next big thing.
You know, JulyZerg is a great example
winning that 3rd osl was such a great moment for a true fan
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Very nice post. As a Khan fan, I agree 100%.
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United States10774 Posts
samsung and the boyz for life
lakers fo life
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On October 20 2009 10:41 John49ers wrote:
Too bad Broodwar isn't decades old then we could be born into rooting for a team by default because of where you live/grew up.
I'm a third generation San Francisco 49ers fan. When I was a child I remember rooting for my team with my grandparents and parents at Candlestick Park. Even following them now during these bad years still hoping for a playoff run. I could never hop on a Patriots Bandwagon just because they break breaks records left and right.
Being born and raised into a Niner fanbase is something i'm proud of.
I hope the SC esports scene lasts long enough to have that kind of impact on some family's life.
lol i know how you feel. although you never feel disappointment unless you are a cowboys fan... like me. They are like the pro sc player that used to be awesome and always get super hyped and has epic fails over and over. But, you still stick with them
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when July got the golden mouse, I was full of joy (y). We wasn't playing soo good lately but he made it.
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i love you even more diggity <3
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I don't think I've ever met an actual bandwagon SC fan. I've met the annoying fanboy types, but even they aren't bandwagon fans. That is to say, for example, I've never met someone say in Feb '07, "Savior is my favorite player!" and then say the next month, "Bisu is my favorite player!" Never. So who is this guide for? No one? No one I've ever met, anyway.
And Boxer doesn't suck; everyone else is just better than him now. It's the evolution of the game.
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The only bandwagon I'm on is the one that your commentaries suck.
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On October 21 2009 11:13 naventus wrote:
The only bandwagon I'm on is the one that your commentaries suck.
So you completely ignore the point of this post to make a personal attack? Jesus. You must be TERRIBLE at SC to feel the need to make such a statement to further elevate your status of thinking you're good.
Edit: This me getting on the bandwagon that you're terrible.
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On October 21 2009 11:18 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2009 11:13 naventus wrote:
The only bandwagon I'm on is the one that your commentaries suck. Edit: This me getting on the bandwagon that you're terrible.
Umm...what bandwagon?
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Exactly.
Back to Diggity's post!
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?
So you completely ignore the point of this post to make a personal attack? Jesus. Btw, you are TERRIBLE at SC.
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We already know that! Stop bandwagoning!
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Was hoping for a bo7 rebuttal in retaliation 
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Waiting for the day stork and jangbi comes back to power and fbh too!
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On October 21 2009 16:09 MuffinDude wrote:
Waiting for the day stork and jangbi comes back to power and fbh too!
T.T Keep strong brother. One day they'll rise again and stop this zerg swarm ;_;
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On October 21 2009 16:09 MuffinDude wrote:
Waiting for the day stork and jangbi comes back to power and fbh too!
Stork is back, yo! He beat a Zerg! :D He did the impossible that even Bisu couldn't do!
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Good read, Diggity.
By the way, what is all this about BoxeR currently sucking? Let's put some things into persective, shall we? Just because he's no longer dominating the scene doesn't mean he sucks. He's still a progamer and better than 99.99% of all StarCraft players in the world, no doubt.
Even if you look at only the progamers, he doesn't suck. I didn't think I would ever link to the article I wrote mostly as a joke, but here it is motivated. In that thread I wrote that I had calculated the median ELO rating for a progamer at the moment and found it to be 1962. BoxeR's ELO rating is currently 1973.
This means that BoxeR is above the median (granted, very close to the median). He is still among the top 50% of all progamers and thus I would hardly say that he sucks. He isn't dominating, but he definately doen't suck.
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Just for the record, I'm still watching the Sacramento Kings and rooting for Much . (does that make me a good fan or just stupid )
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As for the Kobe and Tupac resemblance thing, I can totally relate, I started to cheer for CJ cause their logo looks like a bitchin guitar pick, which is cool.
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On October 21 2009 11:13 naventus wrote:
The only bandwagon I'm on is the one that your commentaries suck.
then I'm on the anti-bandwagon, diggity's commentaries own
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you rule diggity!
da man!
+ Show Spoiler +P.s., AGH STOP WRITING START COMMENTATING
+ Show Spoiler +P.s.s., I jumped off the Luxury wagon when he stopped wearing that sexy shirt from a few years back, I think it was when Flash was super dominating.
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When I started playing sc again (somewhere in early 2009). I followed korean sc scene just randomly but I wanted to learn about korean sc scene more, because koreans are so good(lol)
I was pretty confused with all the leagues, players etc. Then I noticed effort because of his cool name and I started rooting him. When I found out that he is in CJ, I started rooting for CJ too (Skyhigh's reverse all-kill vs OZ was the final blow) but the reason why I sticked with them was because they were doing well. Later I learned to like them not just when they are winning. Now I will stick with effort and CJ no matter what.
To new players winning is the reason why to root for some team and/or player. I've undergone it.
Great blog btw.
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Get em Diggity!
I decided to believe in hyuk this season despite all the hate he gets and he's pulling through great and I really love to see him beating a good player and feeling happy after, or how hard he takes it when he loses. He has it in him.
Same for ZerO - Being so close to him when he lost to EffOrt at blizzcon this year and seeing him cry from it, I really got to see how seriously he took the game and combining that with how much I love him for playing out-of-the-box and I had myself a player to love.
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Great post! I definitely agree with you.
It's funny that I was just thinking yesterday about how much different watching SC is once I watched enough to have favorites (players and teams). In the beginning, I just watched and didn't really cheer for anyone (except maybe Terrans), but I now get more excitement and "sadness" when watching players that are my favorites.
Recent example...seeing  sKyHigh lose to  ggaemo.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.youngtexaslawyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/071103-kobe-bryant.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://patterico.com/files/2008/11/tupac.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/43038.gif)
