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Active: 834 users

TLnet Poll - Is region-lock still necessary in 2020?

Is region-lock still necessary in 2020? :

No (961)56%
Yes (396)23%
Don't know/Ambivalent (361)21%

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
1 2 Next All
TL.net Bot
Profile Joined June 2004
TL.net131 Posts
January 07 2020 20:35 GMT
#1
BlackPride
Profile Joined July 2012
United States186 Posts
January 08 2020 18:43 GMT
#2
Absolutely not necessary.

Apollo said there are a lot of changes and there's not enough time to really look into region lock this time around, which I totally understand but I'm really hoping it changes as soon as the changes settle down.

On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one.

It's all so sad. I really feel bad for the Koreans.
I've never waited in line at the DMV [YVNG]
jimminy_kriket
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Canada5502 Posts
January 09 2020 02:25 GMT
#3
On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
Absolutely not necessary.

Apollo said there are a lot of changes and there's not enough time to really look into region lock this time around, which I totally understand but I'm really hoping it changes as soon as the changes settle down.

On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one.

It's all so sad. I really feel bad for the Koreans.

Possibly stemming from the fact that the koreans are going to take the vast majority of open qualifier spots in EU and NA qualifiers. Look at the recent IEM katowice NA server qualifier. 0 north american players, 2 koreans and Reynor advanced.

I'm in favor of the region lock personally. I prefer seeing foreigners go up against the best koreans in more than just the qualifiers.
life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery
shadow4723
Profile Joined October 2018
87 Posts
January 09 2020 09:28 GMT
#4
As we see in every global event, no region lock means Koreans + Serral and Reynor
Pangpootata
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
1838 Posts
January 09 2020 14:44 GMT
#5
They should lock finland region to help other players actually win something without serral around
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-09 16:08:39
January 09 2020 16:08 GMT
#6
On January 09 2020 11:25 jimminy_kriket wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
Absolutely not necessary.

Apollo said there are a lot of changes and there's not enough time to really look into region lock this time around, which I totally understand but I'm really hoping it changes as soon as the changes settle down.

On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one.

It's all so sad. I really feel bad for the Koreans.

Possibly stemming from the fact that the koreans are going to take the vast majority of open qualifier spots in EU and NA qualifiers. Look at the recent IEM katowice NA server qualifier. 0 north american players, 2 koreans and Reynor advanced.

I'm in favor of the region lock personally. I prefer seeing foreigners go up against the best koreans in more than just the qualifiers.


I doubt that koreans will advance from EU qualifiers.
And the EPL spots are actually 9 koreans+9 foreigners+2 global masters.
imJealous
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1382 Posts
January 09 2020 16:54 GMT
#7
On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one.


Korea is one country that gets 9 automatic slots. How many automatic slots does America get? how many does UK get? How many does Sweden get? How many does Germany get? How about Canada? France? Spain? Oh wait, the entire rest of the world has to split 11 seats. Sounds like Korea is the one getting special treatment.

Before anyone freaks out, I know this is Starcraft we're talking about and special consideration for Korea is entirely valid because its the mecca of the sport and that is totally fine with me. I'm just attempting to illustrate another perspective.
... In life very little goes right. "Right" meaning the way one expected and the way one wanted it. One has no right to want or expect anything.
DrunkenSCV
Profile Joined November 2016
76 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-09 19:43:55
January 09 2020 19:43 GMT
#8
Region lock wouldn't be so unjust if non kr players weren't allowed to participate in GSL. Or at least make them choose between GSL and their domestic championship, why they are allowed participate in both is beyond my comprehension.
Kori
Profile Joined December 2012
Germany58 Posts
January 10 2020 08:20 GMT
#9
Region lock still seems necessary in itself imo but the Korean scene definitely needs something else to support it in that case. There's no real way for people below Ro32 GSL level to make much money at all outside of some online tournaments that are swarmed by higher level Koreans so I wish there was some kind of tournament for those players (I still wish Code A was coming back tbh).

Without some kind of tournament made for those people so Korean grassroots SC2 can grow again I don't think it's sustainable longterm
MattyClutch
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States711 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-10 16:43:02
January 10 2020 16:41 GMT
#10
On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9?


While I absolutely agree that it is not strictly necessary, I don't feel that the current setup is illogical, grossly unfair, or anything like that. I am going to round and include the entire rest of the world here for brevity since the point easily makes itself without dividing things up into exact tournament participating nations. Korea has over 51 million people. The "foreigner scene" then contains the rest of the 7.55ish billion people on this planet. Let me know if I am missing something here, but that sounds like 2 more spots for 7.5+ billion people... I think they can have 2 more spots.

If you feel that is an impossible burden for Koreans, then we might as well ban anyone not from Korea.
Nihn'kas Neehn
FFW_Rude
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France10201 Posts
January 10 2020 19:02 GMT
#11
I'm not in favor of the region lock personally. I prefer seeing foreigners go up against koreans in nothing more than just the qualifiers.
#1 KT Rolster fanboy. KT BEST KT ! Hail to KT playoffs Zergs ! Unofficial french translator for SlayerS_`Boxer` biography "Crazy as me".
zumpy
Profile Joined August 2011
United States122 Posts
January 11 2020 03:29 GMT
#12
If region lock ended right now I still think that the best koreans would still just be winning all of the tournaments and placing at the top (add in Serral and Reynor). It would still just enable the rich get richer scenario.

I think we're getting closer and closer to not needing it but I think another year is still needed
well won
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
January 11 2020 14:11 GMT
#13
Question should be referring to 2021, i think at this point it s pretty settled it stays for 2020
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
vik7
Profile Joined May 2009
United States227 Posts
January 13 2020 16:45 GMT
#14
On January 10 2020 04:43 DrunkenSCV wrote:
Region lock wouldn't be so unjust if non kr players weren't allowed to participate in GSL. Or at least make them choose between GSL and their domestic championship, why they are allowed participate in both is beyond my comprehension.

THIS! The double dip allowed by foreigners is unfair. I would love to hear the counter-argument about allowing Foreigners to double-dip in the Korea region
NA player, go KT Flash, ST Life( ;( ) , IMMvp, EGJD, CMStorm Polt, SKT Rain, KT Zest, Bisu, RootherO, Stats and teamliqiud
BlackPride
Profile Joined July 2012
United States186 Posts
January 14 2020 16:40 GMT
#15
On January 10 2020 04:43 DrunkenSCV wrote:
Region lock wouldn't be so unjust if non kr players weren't allowed to participate in GSL. Or at least make them choose between GSL and their domestic championship, why they are allowed participate in both is beyond my comprehension.


Completely agree. That's something I haven't seen any proponent of region lock been able to reconcile.
I've never waited in line at the DMV [YVNG]
Boggyb
Profile Joined January 2017
2855 Posts
January 15 2020 16:27 GMT
#16
Racism was never needed.
FrkFrJss
Profile Joined April 2015
Canada1205 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-01-15 21:41:08
January 15 2020 21:40 GMT
#17
On January 10 2020 04:43 DrunkenSCV wrote:
Region lock wouldn't be so unjust if non kr players weren't allowed to participate in GSL. Or at least make them choose between GSL and their domestic championship, why they are allowed participate in both is beyond my comprehension.

I'll definitely admit that foreigners can double dip easier than Koreans. Though, that statement comes with a couple of caveats. Also, keep in mind that Koreans have a much larger overall share of the potential prize pool as well as the slots in Blizzcon or whatever championship arises. They already have favourable treatment by the other organizers. However, if we wanted to make the situations the same, then I would probably be on board with saying that foreigners had to choose one or the other.

First, foreigners generally have to live in Korea to compete there. You can fly there for the qualifiers, Ro32, Ro16 selection, Ro16, and Ro8 and on if you make it, but that's like 8 flights already, so it makes more sense to just live there during that period of time.

Second, Koreans are allowed to compete in WCS regions, it's just a lot harder as they need proper visas to compete. However, people like TRUE, Hydra, and Polt have been able to compete in WCS regions as they have visas. (Also Masa, but he's a bit different).


The other issue about "fairness" of region lock or of double-dipping I think comes down to a philosophical topic about the reasonings behind region lock. In brief, the reason region lock exists is that Koreans competed in foreign tournaments, won, and then flew back to Korea. As a result of Koreans generally not living there, the foreign scenes in those areas diminished significantly, and one of the reasons why EU is stronger than NA is because a number of Koreans actually lived in and helped the scene.

Few people had a problem with the Koreans in the EU, but more people had problems with the Koreans in NA because far fewer stayed and lived there. Polt (and a few others) were anomalies. The biggest example is when Pigbaby came to the WCS NA region, won it, and then promptly did little else in his career.

My view is that if people contribute to a scene, they should be allowed to compete in that scene. Or, if we want to go full region-lock, then we should have a system to raise up talent naturally. For instance, NoRegreT, Special, and Scarlett have very much contributed to the scene, and the best example is TY and Special's relationship and being able to practice builds off of each other. Similarly, if Koreans want to compete in the WCS regions, they should have to live there.

One final note is that the GSL has always been semi-regionlocked and also semi-open ever since 2010. It's for a reason because they want the best players (both Korean and foreign), but they also want people to physically be there to compete. Part of the reason why foreigners are allowed to compete there is because the organizers allow foreigners to compete in the first place.
"Keep Moving Forward" - Walt Disney
Ej_
Profile Blog Joined January 2013
47656 Posts
January 16 2020 16:38 GMT
#18
On January 10 2020 01:54 imJealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one.


Korea is one country that gets 9 automatic slots. How many automatic slots does America get? how many does UK get? How many does Sweden get? How many does Germany get? How about Canada? France? Spain? Oh wait, the entire rest of the world has to split 11 seats. Sounds like Korea is the one getting special treatment.

Before anyone freaks out, I know this is Starcraft we're talking about and special consideration for Korea is entirely valid because its the mecca of the sport and that is totally fine with me. I'm just attempting to illustrate another perspective.

This argument wouldn't be completely dogshit if it wasn't possible for foreigners to gain the "Korean" slots by competing in GSL which isn't region locked. Except they don't, because that's a much much much harder tournament than the Welfare Championship Series.
"Technically the dictionary has zero authority on the meaning or words" - Rodya
Xain0n
Profile Joined November 2018
Italy3963 Posts
January 16 2020 16:49 GMT
#19
On January 17 2020 01:38 Ej_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2020 01:54 imJealous wrote:
On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one.


Korea is one country that gets 9 automatic slots. How many automatic slots does America get? how many does UK get? How many does Sweden get? How many does Germany get? How about Canada? France? Spain? Oh wait, the entire rest of the world has to split 11 seats. Sounds like Korea is the one getting special treatment.

Before anyone freaks out, I know this is Starcraft we're talking about and special consideration for Korea is entirely valid because its the mecca of the sport and that is totally fine with me. I'm just attempting to illustrate another perspective.

This argument wouldn't be completely dogshit if it wasn't possible for foreigners to gain the "Korean" slots by competing in GSL which isn't region locked. Except they don't, because that's a much much much harder tournament than the Welfare Championship Series.


Lol, foreigners in GSL are a non factor. They aren't many and they aren't taking any relevant korean spot, either.
They play in Korea because it's an opportunity they have, but it would make no difference if they weren't allowed to play in GSL, Korean scene wouldn't suddenly have a future. and

Did it come to your mind that the reason for which many foreigners do not want play in Code S is because you have to live in Korea for months? The two best foreigners didn't need to play in Korea to rise, and they aren't "stealing korean money" at the moment, despite having enough skill to do so.
vik7
Profile Joined May 2009
United States227 Posts
January 16 2020 17:09 GMT
#20
On January 16 2020 06:40 FrkFrJss wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2020 04:43 DrunkenSCV wrote:
Region lock wouldn't be so unjust if non kr players weren't allowed to participate in GSL. Or at least make them choose between GSL and their domestic championship, why they are allowed participate in both is beyond my comprehension.

I'll definitely admit that foreigners can double dip easier than Koreans. Though, that statement comes with a couple of caveats. Also, keep in mind that Koreans have a much larger overall share of the potential prize pool as well as the slots in Blizzcon or whatever championship arises. They already have favourable treatment by the other organizers. However, if we wanted to make the situations the same, then I would probably be on board with saying that foreigners had to choose one or the other.

First, foreigners generally have to live in Korea to compete there. You can fly there for the qualifiers, Ro32, Ro16 selection, Ro16, and Ro8 and on if you make it, but that's like 8 flights already, so it makes more sense to just live there during that period of time.

Second, Koreans are allowed to compete in WCS regions, it's just a lot harder as they need proper visas to compete. However, people like TRUE, Hydra, and Polt have been able to compete in WCS regions as they have visas. (Also Masa, but he's a bit different).


The other issue about "fairness" of region lock or of double-dipping I think comes down to a philosophical topic about the reasonings behind region lock. In brief, the reason region lock exists is that Koreans competed in foreign tournaments, won, and then flew back to Korea. As a result of Koreans generally not living there, the foreign scenes in those areas diminished significantly, and one of the reasons why EU is stronger than NA is because a number of Koreans actually lived in and helped the scene.

Few people had a problem with the Koreans in the EU, but more people had problems with the Koreans in NA because far fewer stayed and lived there. Polt (and a few others) were anomalies. The biggest example is when Pigbaby came to the WCS NA region, won it, and then promptly did little else in his career.

My view is that if people contribute to a scene, they should be allowed to compete in that scene. Or, if we want to go full region-lock, then we should have a system to raise up talent naturally. For instance, NoRegreT, Special, and Scarlett have very much contributed to the scene, and the best example is TY and Special's relationship and being able to practice builds off of each other. Similarly, if Koreans want to compete in the WCS regions, they should have to live there.

One final note is that the GSL has always been semi-regionlocked and also semi-open ever since 2010. It's for a reason because they want the best players (both Korean and foreign), but they also want people to physically be there to compete. Part of the reason why foreigners are allowed to compete there is because the organizers allow foreigners to compete in the first place.


Allowing players to play in another region based on contributions brings its own set of problems. For example, it would block the new and upcoming player to enter the region compared to a veteran player who also contributes to the region whether it's housing, content ETC. I understand the reasoning behind the region lock, prior to the region lock. You basically had Koreans flying over and winning, then flying back. ("However in that period there was no region lock, just qualifiers, and invitational seeds excluding the earned seed of the previous champion"). The Idea of GSL being Global to allow qualifiers is great; but once the era of Region-lock came in, it narrows the path for new Korean blood (whether its difficulty" available slots" or financial "lots of mid tier Korean players played internationally for earning potential" ). The ruling has to be equal. The only double-dip allowed has to be the Grand finals and global tournaments not region-based.
NA player, go KT Flash, ST Life( ;( ) , IMMvp, EGJD, CMStorm Polt, SKT Rain, KT Zest, Bisu, RootherO, Stats and teamliqiud
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