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On January 17 2020 01:49 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2020 01:38 Ej_ wrote:On January 10 2020 01:54 imJealous wrote:On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one. Korea is one country that gets 9 automatic slots. How many automatic slots does America get? how many does UK get? How many does Sweden get? How many does Germany get? How about Canada? France? Spain? Oh wait, the entire rest of the world has to split 11 seats. Sounds like Korea is the one getting special treatment. Before anyone freaks out, I know this is Starcraft we're talking about and special consideration for Korea is entirely valid because its the mecca of the sport and that is totally fine with me. I'm just attempting to illustrate another perspective. This argument wouldn't be completely dogshit if it wasn't possible for foreigners to gain the "Korean" slots by competing in GSL which isn't region locked. Except they don't, because that's a much much much harder tournament than the Welfare Championship Series. Lol, foreigners in GSL are a non factor. They aren't many and they aren't taking any relevant korean spot, either. They play in Korea because it's an opportunity they have, but it would make no difference if they weren't allowed to play in GSL, Korean scene wouldn't suddenly have a future. and Did it come to your mind that the reason for which many foreigners do not want play in Code S is because you have to live in Korea for months? The two best foreigners didn't need to play in Korea to rise, and they aren't "stealing korean money" at the moment, despite having enough skill to do so.
Yes, Reynor and Serral do not play in GSL and don't qualify through there.
That has not stopped others, notably SpeCial (a WCS-qualified Blizzcon player) from living in Korea, playing full year of GSL and not coming remotely close to qualifying for the global finals.
I also do not know where the "stealing korean money" part came from, are you trying to put words in my mouth or can you not express yourself without a hyperbole of purposefuly negative connotation?
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On January 17 2020 03:05 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2020 01:49 Xain0n wrote:On January 17 2020 01:38 Ej_ wrote:On January 10 2020 01:54 imJealous wrote:On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one. Korea is one country that gets 9 automatic slots. How many automatic slots does America get? how many does UK get? How many does Sweden get? How many does Germany get? How about Canada? France? Spain? Oh wait, the entire rest of the world has to split 11 seats. Sounds like Korea is the one getting special treatment. Before anyone freaks out, I know this is Starcraft we're talking about and special consideration for Korea is entirely valid because its the mecca of the sport and that is totally fine with me. I'm just attempting to illustrate another perspective. This argument wouldn't be completely dogshit if it wasn't possible for foreigners to gain the "Korean" slots by competing in GSL which isn't region locked. Except they don't, because that's a much much much harder tournament than the Welfare Championship Series. Lol, foreigners in GSL are a non factor. They aren't many and they aren't taking any relevant korean spot, either. They play in Korea because it's an opportunity they have, but it would make no difference if they weren't allowed to play in GSL, Korean scene wouldn't suddenly have a future. and Did it come to your mind that the reason for which many foreigners do not want play in Code S is because you have to live in Korea for months? The two best foreigners didn't need to play in Korea to rise, and they aren't "stealing korean money" at the moment, despite having enough skill to do so. Yes, Reynor and Serral do not play in GSL and don't qualify through there. That has not stopped others, notably SpeCial (a WCS-qualified Blizzcon player) from living in Korea, playing full year of GSL and not coming remotely close to qualifying for the global finals. I also do not know where the "stealing korean money" part came from, are you trying to put words in my mouth or can you not express yourself without a hyperbole of purposefuly negative connotation?
So what is your point? That it is not fair for foreigners to be allowed to play in GSL?
You are right, but in reality this doesn't create any problem because the ones who could qualify through GSL just don't play in Korea.
Just remember that everyone but Scarlett retreated from Code S when, last year, Blizzard tried to make participating in the qualifiers not compatible with WCS Challengers; there were no outcries and no korean upcoming talent rose to take the left spots. Blizzard decided it wasn't the outcome they desired and reverted their decision; region locking Korea is not the way to go.
No one actually wrote "stealing korean money" in this thread but that's the mood, without any doubt(or stealing spots, it's basically the same).
By the way, I guess I have to appreciate the boldness of one who speaks of hyperboles after having just called WCS "Welfare Championship Series".
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On January 17 2020 02:09 vik7 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2020 06:40 FrkFrJss wrote:On January 10 2020 04:43 DrunkenSCV wrote:
Region lock wouldn't be so unjust if non kr players weren't allowed to participate in GSL. Or at least make them choose between GSL and their domestic championship, why they are allowed participate in both is beyond my comprehension. I'll definitely admit that foreigners can double dip easier than Koreans. Though, that statement comes with a couple of caveats. Also, keep in mind that Koreans have a much larger overall share of the potential prize pool as well as the slots in Blizzcon or whatever championship arises. They already have favourable treatment by the other organizers. However, if we wanted to make the situations the same, then I would probably be on board with saying that foreigners had to choose one or the other. First, foreigners generally have to live in Korea to compete there. You can fly there for the qualifiers, Ro32, Ro16 selection, Ro16, and Ro8 and on if you make it, but that's like 8 flights already, so it makes more sense to just live there during that period of time. Second, Koreans are allowed to compete in WCS regions, it's just a lot harder as they need proper visas to compete. However, people like TRUE, Hydra, and Polt have been able to compete in WCS regions as they have visas. (Also Masa, but he's a bit different). The other issue about "fairness" of region lock or of double-dipping I think comes down to a philosophical topic about the reasonings behind region lock. In brief, the reason region lock exists is that Koreans competed in foreign tournaments, won, and then flew back to Korea. As a result of Koreans generally not living there, the foreign scenes in those areas diminished significantly, and one of the reasons why EU is stronger than NA is because a number of Koreans actually lived in and helped the scene. Few people had a problem with the Koreans in the EU, but more people had problems with the Koreans in NA because far fewer stayed and lived there. Polt (and a few others) were anomalies. The biggest example is when Pigbaby came to the WCS NA region, won it, and then promptly did little else in his career. My view is that if people contribute to a scene, they should be allowed to compete in that scene. Or, if we want to go full region-lock, then we should have a system to raise up talent naturally. For instance, NoRegreT, Special, and Scarlett have very much contributed to the scene, and the best example is TY and Special's relationship and being able to practice builds off of each other. Similarly, if Koreans want to compete in the WCS regions, they should have to live there. One final note is that the GSL has always been semi-regionlocked and also semi-open ever since 2010. It's for a reason because they want the best players (both Korean and foreign), but they also want people to physically be there to compete. Part of the reason why foreigners are allowed to compete there is because the organizers allow foreigners to compete in the first place. Allowing players to play in another region based on contributions brings its own set of problems. For example, it would block the new and upcoming player to enter the region compared to a veteran player who also contributes to the region whether it's housing, content ETC. I understand the reasoning behind the region lock, prior to the region lock. You basically had Koreans flying over and winning, then flying back. ("However in that period there was no region lock, just qualifiers, and invitational seeds excluding the earned seed of the previous champion"). The Idea of GSL being Global to allow qualifiers is great; but once the era of Region-lock came in, it narrows the path for new Korean blood (whether its difficulty" available slots" or financial "lots of mid tier Korean players played internationally for earning potential" ). The ruling has to be equal. The only double-dip allowed has to be the Grand finals and global tournaments not region-based.
I think if there are too many players, it can block talent, but a handful of good players does not stifle a region's flow of new blood (if there is any to begin with). I think we can see this with Polt, Hydra, and TRUE in WCS along with Koreans who stayed in Europe during 2013 and 2014. Similarly, I don't really feel that Scarlett and Special are stifling any competition in the Korean region.
This conversation has been raised before, and every single time, it comes down to the fact that the mid-top Koreans are too good for the low and beginning Koreans. If Special and Scarlett were not in the GSL, then their spots would be replaced by low-mid tier Koreans, not beginning Koreans. And the fact of the matter is that there is not enough blood to sustain Code A, which is why they took out Code A.
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On January 17 2020 03:31 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2020 03:05 Ej_ wrote:On January 17 2020 01:49 Xain0n wrote:On January 17 2020 01:38 Ej_ wrote:On January 10 2020 01:54 imJealous wrote:On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one. Korea is one country that gets 9 automatic slots. How many automatic slots does America get? how many does UK get? How many does Sweden get? How many does Germany get? How about Canada? France? Spain? Oh wait, the entire rest of the world has to split 11 seats. Sounds like Korea is the one getting special treatment. Before anyone freaks out, I know this is Starcraft we're talking about and special consideration for Korea is entirely valid because its the mecca of the sport and that is totally fine with me. I'm just attempting to illustrate another perspective. This argument wouldn't be completely dogshit if it wasn't possible for foreigners to gain the "Korean" slots by competing in GSL which isn't region locked. Except they don't, because that's a much much much harder tournament than the Welfare Championship Series. Lol, foreigners in GSL are a non factor. They aren't many and they aren't taking any relevant korean spot, either. They play in Korea because it's an opportunity they have, but it would make no difference if they weren't allowed to play in GSL, Korean scene wouldn't suddenly have a future. and Did it come to your mind that the reason for which many foreigners do not want play in Code S is because you have to live in Korea for months? The two best foreigners didn't need to play in Korea to rise, and they aren't "stealing korean money" at the moment, despite having enough skill to do so. Yes, Reynor and Serral do not play in GSL and don't qualify through there. That has not stopped others, notably SpeCial (a WCS-qualified Blizzcon player) from living in Korea, playing full year of GSL and not coming remotely close to qualifying for the global finals. I also do not know where the "stealing korean money" part came from, are you trying to put words in my mouth or can you not express yourself without a hyperbole of purposefuly negative connotation? So what is your point? That it is not fair for foreigners to be allowed to play in GSL? You are right, but in reality this doesn't create any problem because the ones who could qualify through GSL just don't play in Korea. Just remember that everyone but Scarlett retreated from Code S when, last year, Blizzard tried to make participating in the qualifiers not compatible with WCS Challengers; there were no outcries and no korean upcoming talent rose to take the left spots. Blizzard decided it wasn't the outcome they desired and reverted their decision; region locking Korea is not the way to go. No one actually wrote "stealing korean money" in this thread but that's the mood, without any doubt(or stealing spots, it's basically the same). By the way, I guess I have to appreciate the boldness of one who speaks of hyperboles after having just called WCS "Welfare Championship Series".
My point is that in no shape or form does the region lock benefit the Korean players, which is exactly what the post I originally replied to tried to spin as some hot take.
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It was never necessary.
Racism exists in all forms. You don't see it any professional sports leagues.
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On January 18 2020 10:16 StarStruck wrote:
It was never necessary.
Racism exists in all forms. You don't see it any professional sports leagues.
While you don't see the exact setup for the WCS/GSL regions in other professional sports league, both the KHL (the premier hockey league in Europe) and the NPB (Nippon Professional Baseball) have foreigner caps, whereby you cannot field more than a certain percentage or number of foreigners. While it is not the exact same thing, it is very similar.
Additionally, the region lock does not fit the dictionary definition of racism, as it is not discriminating against Koreans on the belief that Koreans are inferior. If anything, it's actually treating them as if the foreigners are inferior. In addition, roughly in the years prior to 2020, so 2015-2019, the Korean scene received about half of the total prize pool from Blizzard while fielding a fewer total number of pro and semi-pro players.
I don't find that proposition to be racist whatsoever. The argument goes that it is racist because we're saying that Koreans cannot participate in WCS tournaments based off of their race. That is true, but they also get half the prize pool and half of slots from Blizzcon (or what used to be Blizzcon). If anything, they're getting preferential treatment.
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On January 16 2020 06:40 FrkFrJss wrote:
I'll definitely admit that foreigners can double dip easier than Koreans.
On January 16 2020 06:40 FrkFrJss wrote:
Koreans are allowed to compete in WCS regions, it's just a lot harder as they need proper visas to compete. However, people like TRUE, Hydra, and Polt have been able to compete in WCS regions as they have visas. (Also Masa, but he's a bit different).
The Korean double dip didn't exist under WCS rule. The Koreans had a choice between one or the other. TRUE tried the douple dip, qualifying for both GSL and WCS. The result was a rule change to make him choose.
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I feel like no one has adressed the elephant in the room so far. The original question in the poll: "Is the region lock still necessary?" Well, look at who qualified for Katowice this year where we had no region lock: We get Koreans only and three European zerg including Serral and Reynor. Do we still need region lock? Damn yes, we do.
The system in place is not to racially discriminate against Koreans (why ever this straw man was put up here in this discussion) but to allow the foreign scene to grow stronger. While this was successful to some degree, on average the WCS circuit is still the "second league" of professional SC2. Foreigners may take a game or two when matched against high level Koreans, but only Serral and Reynor manage to perform on a similar level. So if one wants to keep a scene with Western professional players, we need to keep region lock for some more time. Else it will be as in the days of old where you knew who would win Dreamhack by looking at the one guy with a Korean flag next to his name.
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On January 18 2020 21:30 Drfilip wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2020 06:40 FrkFrJss wrote:
I'll definitely admit that foreigners can double dip easier than Koreans.
Show nested quote +On January 16 2020 06:40 FrkFrJss wrote:
Koreans are allowed to compete in WCS regions, it's just a lot harder as they need proper visas to compete. However, people like TRUE, Hydra, and Polt have been able to compete in WCS regions as they have visas. (Also Masa, but he's a bit different).
The Korean double dip didn't exist under WCS rule. The Koreans had a choice between one or the other. TRUE tried the douple dip, qualifying for both GSL and WCS. The result was a rule change to make him choose.
Yes, you are correct in that regard. It was a situation that hadn’t happened before. It was a result that required players with a visa to live in a WCS region for a set period of time before the event.
However, in this situation, TRUE played at WCS Austin and the GSL and the Super Tournament, where he placed in the ro8. Thus, it seems to me that TRUE did double dip in this situation, though it did require a rule change.
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On January 19 2020 05:37 Exedo wrote:I feel like no one has adressed the elephant in the room so far. The original question in the poll: "Is the region lock still necessary?" Well, look at who qualified for Katowice this year where we had no region lock: We get Koreans only and three European zerg including Serral and Reynor. Do we still need region lock? Damn yes, we do. The system in place is not to racially discriminate against Koreans (why ever this straw man was put up here in this discussion) but to allow the foreign scene to grow stronger. While this was successful to some degree, on average the WCS circuit is still the "second league" of professional SC2. Foreigners may take a game or two when matched against high level Koreans, but only Serral and Reynor manage to perform on a similar level. So if one wants to keep a scene with Western professional players, we need to keep region lock for some more time. Else it will be as in the days of old where you knew who would win Dreamhack by looking at the one guy with a Korean flag next to his name.
First of all, I suggest you to go watch how Katowice looked like in 2014-2015, when there were open qualifiers and no region lock: respectively one(eliminated in the ro16) and zero non koreans advanced to the final phase of the tournament.
WCS is still weaker than GSL on average, that's true, but only a superficial analysis could ignore the fact that the gap has narrowed immensely; there are at least 2 non koreans in the top 10(occupying places close to the top), before you could find a similar number maybe in top 30, with the best one around #16. I also want to point out that Serral doesn't "perform on a similar level" relatively to top koreans, he performs better.
"May take a game of two against high level koreans"? Koreans without a name could easily beat foreign champions in 2014, while right now you can see Skillous and Clem(promising foreigners with no results under their belt) winning series over Rogue and Inno on NA server.
Korean scene was overflowing with talents and young blood back then, now they are lacking in that regard so that they cannot suffocate the growth of upcoming players who, to emerge, have to overtake players who are more than capable of defeating low and mid tier koreans.
Non god tier foreign contenders would be the ones suffering since they are generally weaker than the best koreans and would fight to advance after ro16 instead of cultivating the hope of getting to one unlikely title, having to defeat Serral, Reynor or both.
The most interesting part of Katowice's qualifiers is indeed the offline part where the foreigner élite will take on A Class koreans; its results will be way more relevant when it comes to decide if we still need region lock or not.
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Edit: Delete please, sorry.
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On January 09 2020 03:43 BlackPride wrote:
Absolutely not necessary.
Apollo said there are a lot of changes and there's not enough time to really look into region lock this time around, which I totally understand but I'm really hoping it changes as soon as the changes settle down.
On a related note, is there any reason why the foreigner scene gets 11 automatic seeds and the Koreans only get 9? That also reeks of horrible foreigner bias and was built into the new ESL changes from day one.
It's all so sad. I really feel bad for the Koreans.
Interesting logic, by that logic every nation in the world should have the same amount of seeds.
If anything Korea gets special treatment because the majority of top players are Korean.
Those 11 automatic seeds represent the entire world outside of Korea.
Just to put it in perspective for you
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EPT
