US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 185
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Aquanim
Australia2849 Posts
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oBlade
United States5289 Posts
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iamthedave
England2814 Posts
On August 20 2018 12:52 oBlade wrote: I thought the subject was a more general issue, sorry. I saw some post of his at the top of a page at that time that might be what you were referring to? Gotunk seems fine. So you think the US Politics thread would be improved by more people posting in GoTunk's style, then? | ||
oBlade
United States5289 Posts
On August 20 2018 19:20 iamthedave wrote: So you think the US Politics thread would be improved by more people posting in GoTunk's style, then? No, although it would depend which people. I think there's almost no kind of poster which would make the thread better if multiplied, except for a few people like Drone or Falling. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22694 Posts
On August 21 2018 02:24 oBlade wrote: No, although it would depend which people. I think there's almost no kind of poster which would make the thread better if multiplied, except for a few people like Drone or Falling. I think multiple IgnE's would certainly be an improvement. Would take more effort to follow the thread, but it'd be worth it imo. I don't agree with Mozu on much but he's also one of the better posters iirc. Drone's great too of course. | ||
KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
Flag waving American's are beyond criticism in the name of decency, South American politicians are not. I am not sure if this is moderation being subconsciously racist, or consciously pushing a particular political narrative while hiding behind a mask of politeness. To be clear: It is my strong opinion that criticism of all dead public people should be tolerated. Especially of those who have killed or caused the deaths of many people. | ||
KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 26 2018 13:09 KlaCkoN wrote: I just want to say that I find it quite contemptible that moderation considers it a 'warnable" offense to write negative things about McCain following his death, while writing bad things about Chavez when he died was considered a-ok. You'd have to refresh my memory about the kind of bad things about Chavez that you wish weren't a-ok to say. I can't recall anything over the top right now, but news has moved very fast in these past years. Flag waving American's are beyond criticism in the name of decency, South American politicians are not. I am not sure if this is moderation being subconsciously racist, or consciously pushing a particular political narrative while hiding behind a mask of politeness. To be clear: It is my strong opinion that criticism of all dead public people should be tolerated. Especially of those who have killed or caused the deaths of many people. This thread is filled with criticism of the President, attacks on symbols of patriotism, white supremacy critiques, calling people racists and Nazis and alt right, and all the rest. You're way the hell off on criticism of Flag Waving Americans, and can't see the distinction of a time-out in the immediate wake of their death. I'm sure you can give McCain 1-3 days in the grave before airing some kind of critique that's perfectly fine. | ||
KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
Entirely appropriately so, what better time to analyze someones legacy than when they die. Just saw Danglars post. Here is the link: https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/401615-hugo-chavez-has-died "And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital." For example, quite comparable to the criticism voiced against McCain. And again, I dont think it was wrong to allow that thread. If Chavez had been better at his job perhaps there wouldnt be 2.5 starving Venezuelans fleeing the country right now. Also my point wasn't about Chavez in particular, I just remembered the thread. My point was that criticism of controversial politicians even right after they die is usually allowed. I find the fact that american politicians seem to be an exception kind of gross. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22694 Posts
I find the "let him be a hero for a day" stuff completely repugnant, at least as much as others find people not fawning over him. EDIT Klack's also right about it being the EXACT right time to talk about it. EDIT2: Grumbles is also right about his post being reflective of the similarly constructed praise being heaped on him. The follow up was more substantive than anything provided representing the more popular perspective. | ||
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 26 2018 13:41 KlaCkoN wrote: It wasn't a post (or two or three) it was an entire thread,debating the merits of the actions he took while alive. Entirely appropriately so, what better time to analyze someones legacy than when they die. Just saw Danglars post. Here is the link: https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/401615-hugo-chavez-has-died "And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital." For example, quite comparable to the criticism voiced against McCain. And again, I dont think it was wrong to allow that thread. If Chavez had been better at his job perhaps there wouldnt be 2.5 starving Venezuelans fleeing the country right now. Also my point wasn't about Chavez in particular, I just remembered the thread. My point was that criticism of controversial politicians even right after they die is usually allowed. I find the fact that american politicians seem to be an exception kind of gross. He literally got his own thread. The General Forum look of 2013 was new threads for every world event, big and small, and fast LFR-style reporting afterwards is not really the same thing. The US Politics thread operates on its own rules in a great deal different from every other thread. The dumb trash talking and mocking is a thread standard the mods want to (and should) clamp down on, all the more needed when people want to trample on the | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22694 Posts
On August 26 2018 16:09 Danglars wrote: He literally got his own thread. The General Forum look of 2013 was new threads for every world event, big and small, and fast LFR-style reporting afterwards is not really the same thing. The US Politics thread operates on its own rules in a great deal different from every other thread. The dumb trash talking and mocking is a thread standard the mods want to (and should) clamp down on, all the more needed when people want to trample on the Granted it was a different time for TL then it's not like if the assassination attempt against Maduro was successful we wouldn't have seen similar things. Personally I think it's easiest if you just imagine the criticism of his atrocious actions around the day of his death as just a little more "collateral damage". Rather modest collateral damage in the grand scheme of things really. EDIT: My point isn't to needlessly argue or drag McCain (plenty of that on twitter better than I could think of), just that there is a more important point that was touched on by previous posters but articulated very well in this old piece: + Show Spoiler + Though he became more popular after leaving office (like most Presidents), it was that week-long bombardment of hagiography that sealed Reagan's status as Great and Cherished Leader. As media and political figures lavished him with politicized praise, there was virtually no mention of the brutal, civilian-extinguishing covert wars he waged in Central America, his funding of terrorists in Nicaragua, the pervasive illegality of the Iran-contra scandal perpetrated by his top aides and possibly himself, the explosion of wealth and income inequality ushered in by "Reagonmics" which persists today, his escalation of the racially disparate Drug War, his slashing of domestic programs for the poor accompanied by a deficit-causing build-up in the military budget, the racially-tinged (at least) attacks on welfare-queens-in-Cadillacs, the Savings & Loan crisis resulting from deregulation, his refusal even to acknowledge AIDS as tens of thousands of the Wrong People died, the training of Muslim radicals in Afghanistan and arming of the Iranian regime, the attempt to appoint the radical Robert Bork to the Supreme Court, or virtually anything else that would undermine the canonization. The country was drowned by a full, uninterrupted week of pure, leader-reverent propaganda. This happened because of an unhealthy conflation of appropriate post-death etiquette for private persons and the etiquette governing deaths of public figures. They are not and should not be the same. We are all taught that it is impolite to speak ill of the dead, particularly in the immediate aftermath of someone's death. For a private person, in a private setting, that makes perfect sense. Most human beings are complex and shaped by conflicting drives, defined by both good and bad acts. That's more or less what it means to be human. And -- when it comes to private individuals -- it's entirely appropriate to emphasize the positives of someone's life and avoid criticisms upon their death: it comforts their grieving loved ones and honors their memory. In that context, there's just no reason, no benefit, to highlight their flaws. But that is completely inapplicable to the death of a public person, especially one who is political. When someone dies who is a public figure by virtue of their political acts -- like Ronald Reagan -- discussions of them upon death will be inherently politicized. How they are remembered is not strictly a matter of the sensitivities of their loved ones, but has substantial impact on the culture which discusses their lives. To allow significant political figures to be heralded with purely one-sided requiems -- enforced by misguided (even if well-intentioned) notions of private etiquette that bar discussions of their bad acts -- is not a matter of politeness; it's deceitful and propagandistic. To exploit the sentiments of sympathy produced by death to enshrine a political figure as Great and Noble is to sanction, or at best minimize, their sins. Misapplying private death etiquette to public figures creates false history and glorifies the ignoble. Protocol for deaths of public figures | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28558 Posts
Like I obviously don't like mccain from a policy perspective. I think the invasion of Iraq, together with Israel's treatment of Palestine, have been the two political issues where I have been the most angered by my political opposition, and Mccain perfectly represents my political opposition on these two issues. But that, or napalm bombing vietnam aren't reasons why people are speaking positively about him now. He's being remembered positively for being a calm, collected, reasonable and civil politician with unwavering belief in America and 'her values' during a time where many people think it's kinda crappy how republican politicians have stopped being calm, collected, reasonable, civil, or believing in the values that 'made some people recognize america as great'. And this really isn't a 'but hitler was kind to animals' kind of thing, on a personal level, my impression is that most people genuinely like Mccain. I mean, I think judging people's morality and character is a flawed endeavor in general. But if one is to do it, I think it's much more appropriate to judge intentions than consequence (even if this is harder to assess), and my genuine impression is that McCain is both self-sacrificing and well-intended. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States22694 Posts
On August 26 2018 17:46 Liquid`Drone wrote: tbh, I don't really have a problem with public criticism of him following his death. that's fine. I just don't think the criticism has to be extended to the people who - regardless of their opinion of mccain - rather think that his death is a better occasion to remember his positive qualities. I had bigger issues with the 'The only people that will mourn him are anyone gullible enough to believe in the media myth about him of the great maverick.' part of grumbels' posts than with 'good riddance to war criminals' or any other part, because this isn't antagonizing the 'genuine mccain supporters' - ones that I understand wanting to reach out to, but basically anyone who thinks the timing is 'not good'. I also think the argument that 'this is exactly the time' is entirely on point, and I agree with that, but there's a difference between 'I think mccain was not a figure that should be celebrated by contemporary society and history and here are the reasons why' and 'those of you who mourn his death have been duped and only do so due to your own malice or ignorance'. Grumbels' posts approached the latter. Like I obviously don't like mccain from a policy perspective. I think the invasion of Iraq, together with Israel's treatment of Palestine, have been the two political issues where I have been the most angered by my political opposition, and Mccain perfectly represents my political opposition on these two issues. But that, or napalm bombing vietnam aren't reasons why people are speaking positively about him now. He's being remembered positively for being a calm, collected, reasonable and civil politician with unwavering belief in America and 'her values' during a time where many people think it's kinda crappy how republican politicians have stopped being calm, collected, reasonable, civil, or believing in the values that 'made some people recognize america as great'. And this really isn't a 'but hitler was kind to animals' kind of thing, on a personal level, my impression is that most people genuinely like Mccain. I mean, I think judging people's morality and character is a flawed endeavor in general. But if one is to do it, I think it's much more appropriate to judge intentions than consequence (even if this is harder to assess), and my genuine impression is that McCain is both self-sacrificing and well-intended. I can agree with the problem with "those of you who mourn..." from a decorum perspective. I do have a lot of problems with someone who did and advocated such horrible things being characterized as "reasonable" or "civil" or consider the "made some people recognize America as great" as a positive. I think we agree on that type of discussion being an important part of the dialogue (certainly not banned). I reject the idea that someone who does such terrible things and sleeps soundly at night with pride in their heart and the idea they did it for good is "reasonable, or "civil" and think that characterizing him as such simply in juxtaposition to an even more unhinged policy group like Republicans/Trump is not only inaccurate but dangerous. It quite literally puts someone who sings "bomb bomb Iran" to the tune of the Beach Boys in the "reasonable" camp. Someone who said "I'll hate those g**ks as long as I live", opposed MLK day until he needed a NFL stadium, and so on in the "civil" camp. That's pretty much precisely the problem I see with any attempt to silence criticism of a public figure when everyone's attention is focused on the legacy they leave behind. I'm trying to do better and I feel like I've made my point so people are free to agree or disagree with as much or little of it as they'd like and I'll let it go. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13738 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
I agree there's a useful distinction to be made between criticism of the person, and criticism of how people respond to the situation. I think some of the issue also has to do with the tone of the criticism. | ||
Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On August 26 2018 17:46 Liquid`Drone wrote: tbh, I don't really have a problem with public criticism of him following his death. that's fine. I just don't think the criticism has to be extended to the people who - regardless of their opinion of mccain - rather think that his death is a better occasion to remember his positive qualities. I had bigger issues with the 'The only people that will mourn him are anyone gullible enough to believe in the media myth about him of the great maverick.' part of grumbels' posts than with 'good riddance to war criminals' or any other part, because this isn't antagonizing the 'genuine mccain supporters' - ones that I understand wanting to reach out to, but basically anyone who thinks the timing is 'not good'. I also think the argument that 'this is exactly the time' is entirely on point, and I agree with that, but there's a difference between 'I think mccain was not a figure that should be celebrated by contemporary society and history and here are the reasons why' and 'those of you who mourn his death have been duped and only do so due to your own malice or ignorance'. Grumbels' posts approached the latter. Like I obviously don't like mccain from a policy perspective. I think the invasion of Iraq, together with Israel's treatment of Palestine, have been the two political issues where I have been the most angered by my political opposition, and Mccain perfectly represents my political opposition on these two issues. But that, or napalm bombing vietnam aren't reasons why people are speaking positively about him now. He's being remembered positively for being a calm, collected, reasonable and civil politician with unwavering belief in America and 'her values' during a time where many people think it's kinda crappy how republican politicians have stopped being calm, collected, reasonable, civil, or believing in the values that 'made some people recognize america as great'. And this really isn't a 'but hitler was kind to animals' kind of thing, on a personal level, my impression is that most people genuinely like Mccain. I mean, I think judging people's morality and character is a flawed endeavor in general. But if one is to do it, I think it's much more appropriate to judge intentions than consequence (even if this is harder to assess), and my genuine impression is that McCain is both self-sacrificing and well-intended. I have incredibly few good things to say about McCain's career in politics, but if the only reason he's in the news is that he died, his own death does not bring some happy moment to dredge up all the bad things you've always wanted to call him. Leave that for criticism for a memoir that goes too far immortalizing him. The newsworthiness of his/her death is not an excuse for the enemies to surface and drag him, where otherwise it would be warned for being an out-of-the-blue off-topic slur. "Let's remember all the evil things Liquid'Drone did in his life" gets a wtf, "Because Liquid'Drone just passed away, I want us to remember he was an evil man who did evil things" gets double. Compare with passing a puppy-kicking law or recently elected to public office, where maybe an expose on character is timely and appropriate for inspiring change. Maybe a little more germane to the audience: Pro gamer X suffers a career-ending wrist injury. First response is that X was never good, his game was undeserved, and the scene is better without him. Appropriate because it’s just public criticism, rather than directly insulting his fans? | ||
Godwrath
Spain10108 Posts
On August 26 2018 23:24 Danglars wrote: If pro gamer X's games allowed to get thousands of civilians bombed, sure. I mean, if you are trying to do an analogy, you need to keep the morality of those at the same stakes.Maybe a little more germane to the audience: Pro gamer X suffers a career-ending wrist injury. First response is that X was never good, his game was undeserved, and the scene is better without him. Appropriate because it’s just public criticism, rather than directly insulting his fans? | ||
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