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Aquanim
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia2849 Posts
August 20 2018 03:33 GMT
#3681
Do you plan on answering my question oBlade or would it get in the way of your zlefin baiting?
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5576 Posts
August 20 2018 03:52 GMT
#3682
I thought the subject was a more general issue, sorry. I saw some post of his at the top of a page at that time that might be what you were referring to? Gotunk seems fine.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
August 20 2018 10:20 GMT
#3683
On August 20 2018 12:52 oBlade wrote:
I thought the subject was a more general issue, sorry. I saw some post of his at the top of a page at that time that might be what you were referring to? Gotunk seems fine.


So you think the US Politics thread would be improved by more people posting in GoTunk's style, then?
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5576 Posts
August 20 2018 17:24 GMT
#3684
On August 20 2018 19:20 iamthedave wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2018 12:52 oBlade wrote:
I thought the subject was a more general issue, sorry. I saw some post of his at the top of a page at that time that might be what you were referring to? Gotunk seems fine.


So you think the US Politics thread would be improved by more people posting in GoTunk's style, then?

No, although it would depend which people.

I think there's almost no kind of poster which would make the thread better if multiplied, except for a few people like Drone or Falling.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23211 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-20 19:25:24
August 20 2018 19:19 GMT
#3685
On August 21 2018 02:24 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2018 19:20 iamthedave wrote:
On August 20 2018 12:52 oBlade wrote:
I thought the subject was a more general issue, sorry. I saw some post of his at the top of a page at that time that might be what you were referring to? Gotunk seems fine.


So you think the US Politics thread would be improved by more people posting in GoTunk's style, then?

No, although it would depend which people.

I think there's almost no kind of poster which would make the thread better if multiplied, except for a few people like Drone or Falling.


I think multiple IgnE's would certainly be an improvement. Would take more effort to follow the thread, but it'd be worth it imo. I don't agree with Mozu on much but he's also one of the better posters iirc. Drone's great too of course.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 04:17:02
August 26 2018 04:09 GMT
#3686
I just want to say that I find it quite contemptible that moderation considers it a 'warnable" offense to write negative things about McCain following his death, while writing bad things about Chavez when he died was considered a-ok.
Flag waving American's are beyond criticism in the name of decency, South American politicians are not. I am not sure if this is moderation being subconsciously racist, or consciously pushing a particular political narrative while hiding behind a mask of politeness.
To be clear: It is my strong opinion that criticism of all dead public people should be tolerated. Especially of those who have killed or caused the deaths of many people.
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 04:16:54
August 26 2018 04:16 GMT
#3687
-- double post
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 04:17:47
August 26 2018 04:17 GMT
#3688
Or no one hit the report button when Chavez died. That is the answer 90% of the time.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 26 2018 04:34 GMT
#3689
On August 26 2018 13:09 KlaCkoN wrote:
I just want to say that I find it quite contemptible that moderation considers it a 'warnable" offense to write negative things about McCain following his death, while writing bad things about Chavez when he died was considered a-ok.

You'd have to refresh my memory about the kind of bad things about Chavez that you wish weren't a-ok to say. I can't recall anything over the top right now, but news has moved very fast in these past years.

Flag waving American's are beyond criticism in the name of decency, South American politicians are not. I am not sure if this is moderation being subconsciously racist, or consciously pushing a particular political narrative while hiding behind a mask of politeness.
To be clear: It is my strong opinion that criticism of all dead public people should be tolerated. Especially of those who have killed or caused the deaths of many people.

This thread is filled with criticism of the President, attacks on symbols of patriotism, white supremacy critiques, calling people racists and Nazis and alt right, and all the rest. You're way the hell off on criticism of Flag Waving Americans, and can't see the distinction of a time-out in the immediate wake of their death. I'm sure you can give McCain 1-3 days in the grave before airing some kind of critique that's perfectly fine.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 04:49:19
August 26 2018 04:41 GMT
#3690
It wasn't a post (or two or three) it was an entire thread,debating the merits of the actions he took while alive.
Entirely appropriately so, what better time to analyze someones legacy than when they die.

Just saw Danglars post. Here is the link:
https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/401615-hugo-chavez-has-died

"And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital."

For example, quite comparable to the criticism voiced against McCain.
And again, I dont think it was wrong to allow that thread. If Chavez had been better at his job perhaps there wouldnt be 2.5 starving Venezuelans fleeing the country right now.
Also my point wasn't about Chavez in particular, I just remembered the thread. My point was that criticism of controversial politicians even right after they die is usually allowed. I find the fact that american politicians seem to be an exception kind of gross.
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23211 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 04:46:55
August 26 2018 04:42 GMT
#3691
If I were picking I'd say Grumbles and Klackon are way more on point than anyone else. All that mourning should be aimed at the kids blown to pieces and burned alive as a result of policy he supported or his direct actions.

I find the "let him be a hero for a day" stuff completely repugnant, at least as much as others find people not fawning over him.

EDIT Klack's also right about it being the EXACT right time to talk about it.
EDIT2: Grumbles is also right about his post being reflective of the similarly constructed praise being heaped on him. The follow up was more substantive than anything provided representing the more popular perspective.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
August 26 2018 07:09 GMT
#3692
On August 26 2018 13:41 KlaCkoN wrote:
It wasn't a post (or two or three) it was an entire thread,debating the merits of the actions he took while alive.
Entirely appropriately so, what better time to analyze someones legacy than when they die.

Just saw Danglars post. Here is the link:
https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/401615-hugo-chavez-has-died

"And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital."

For example, quite comparable to the criticism voiced against McCain.
And again, I dont think it was wrong to allow that thread. If Chavez had been better at his job perhaps there wouldnt be 2.5 starving Venezuelans fleeing the country right now.
Also my point wasn't about Chavez in particular, I just remembered the thread. My point was that criticism of controversial politicians even right after they die is usually allowed. I find the fact that american politicians seem to be an exception kind of gross.

He literally got his own thread. The General Forum look of 2013 was new threads for every world event, big and small, and fast LFR-style reporting afterwards is not really the same thing. The US Politics thread operates on its own rules in a great deal different from every other thread. The dumb trash talking and mocking is a thread standard the mods want to (and should) clamp down on, all the more needed when people want to trample on the grave dead body of a man not even interred.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23211 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 08:41:16
August 26 2018 07:20 GMT
#3693
On August 26 2018 16:09 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 26 2018 13:41 KlaCkoN wrote:
It wasn't a post (or two or three) it was an entire thread,debating the merits of the actions he took while alive.
Entirely appropriately so, what better time to analyze someones legacy than when they die.

Just saw Danglars post. Here is the link:
https://www.liquiddota.com/forum/general/401615-hugo-chavez-has-died

"And now we are going to have so many uninformed post about how he was a great man... he was a populist that bought his place in power by wasting the money that they got from oil, instead of investing it to really improve the society, fight against violence, corruption etc. Basically, a wasted capital."

For example, quite comparable to the criticism voiced against McCain.
And again, I dont think it was wrong to allow that thread. If Chavez had been better at his job perhaps there wouldnt be 2.5 starving Venezuelans fleeing the country right now.
Also my point wasn't about Chavez in particular, I just remembered the thread. My point was that criticism of controversial politicians even right after they die is usually allowed. I find the fact that american politicians seem to be an exception kind of gross.

He literally got his own thread. The General Forum look of 2013 was new threads for every world event, big and small, and fast LFR-style reporting afterwards is not really the same thing. The US Politics thread operates on its own rules in a great deal different from every other thread. The dumb trash talking and mocking is a thread standard the mods want to (and should) clamp down on, all the more needed when people want to trample on the grave dead body of a man not even interred.


Granted it was a different time for TL then it's not like if the assassination attempt against Maduro was successful we wouldn't have seen similar things.

Personally I think it's easiest if you just imagine the criticism of his atrocious actions around the day of his death as just a little more "collateral damage". Rather modest collateral damage in the grand scheme of things really.

EDIT: My point isn't to needlessly argue or drag McCain (plenty of that on twitter better than I could think of), just that there is a more important point that was touched on by previous posters but articulated very well in this old piece:

+ Show Spoiler +
Though he became more popular after leaving office (like most Presidents), it was that week-long bombardment of hagiography that sealed Reagan's status as Great and Cherished Leader. As media and political figures lavished him with politicized praise, there was virtually no mention of the brutal, civilian-extinguishing covert wars he waged in Central America, his funding of terrorists in Nicaragua, the pervasive illegality of the Iran-contra scandal perpetrated by his top aides and possibly himself, the explosion of wealth and income inequality ushered in by "Reagonmics" which persists today, his escalation of the racially disparate Drug War, his slashing of domestic programs for the poor accompanied by a deficit-causing build-up in the military budget, the racially-tinged (at least) attacks on welfare-queens-in-Cadillacs, the Savings & Loan crisis resulting from deregulation, his refusal even to acknowledge AIDS as tens of thousands of the Wrong People died, the training of Muslim radicals in Afghanistan and arming of the Iranian regime, the attempt to appoint the radical Robert Bork to the Supreme Court, or virtually anything else that would undermine the canonization. The country was drowned by a full, uninterrupted week of pure, leader-reverent propaganda.

This happened because of an unhealthy conflation of appropriate post-death etiquette for private persons and the etiquette governing deaths of public figures. They are not and should not be the same. We are all taught that it is impolite to speak ill of the dead, particularly in the immediate aftermath of someone's death. For a private person, in a private setting, that makes perfect sense. Most human beings are complex and shaped by conflicting drives, defined by both good and bad acts. That's more or less what it means to be human. And -- when it comes to private individuals -- it's entirely appropriate to emphasize the positives of someone's life and avoid criticisms upon their death: it comforts their grieving loved ones and honors their memory. In that context, there's just no reason, no benefit, to highlight their flaws.

But that is completely inapplicable to the death of a public person, especially one who is political. When someone dies who is a public figure by virtue of their political acts -- like Ronald Reagan -- discussions of them upon death will be inherently politicized. How they are remembered is not strictly a matter of the sensitivities of their loved ones, but has substantial impact on the culture which discusses their lives. To allow significant political figures to be heralded with purely one-sided requiems -- enforced by misguided (even if well-intentioned) notions of private etiquette that bar discussions of their bad acts -- is not a matter of politeness; it's deceitful and propagandistic. To exploit the sentiments of sympathy produced by death to enshrine a political figure as Great and Noble is to sanction, or at best minimize, their sins. Misapplying private death etiquette to public figures creates false history and glorifies the ignoble.


Protocol for deaths of public figures
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28659 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 08:47:57
August 26 2018 08:46 GMT
#3694
tbh, I don't really have a problem with public criticism of him following his death. that's fine. I just don't think the criticism has to be extended to the people who - regardless of their opinion of mccain - rather think that his death is a better occasion to remember his positive qualities. I had bigger issues with the 'The only people that will mourn him are anyone gullible enough to believe in the media myth about him of the great maverick.' part of grumbels' posts than with 'good riddance to war criminals' or any other part, because this isn't antagonizing the 'genuine mccain supporters' - ones that I understand wanting to reach out to, but basically anyone who thinks the timing is 'not good'. I also think the argument that 'this is exactly the time' is entirely on point, and I agree with that, but there's a difference between 'I think mccain was not a figure that should be celebrated by contemporary society and history and here are the reasons why' and 'those of you who mourn his death have been duped and only do so due to your own malice or ignorance'. Grumbels' posts approached the latter.

Like I obviously don't like mccain from a policy perspective. I think the invasion of Iraq, together with Israel's treatment of Palestine, have been the two political issues where I have been the most angered by my political opposition, and Mccain perfectly represents my political opposition on these two issues. But that, or napalm bombing vietnam aren't reasons why people are speaking positively about him now. He's being remembered positively for being a calm, collected, reasonable and civil politician with unwavering belief in America and 'her values' during a time where many people think it's kinda crappy how republican politicians have stopped being calm, collected, reasonable, civil, or believing in the values that 'made some people recognize america as great'. And this really isn't a 'but hitler was kind to animals' kind of thing, on a personal level, my impression is that most people genuinely like Mccain.

I mean, I think judging people's morality and character is a flawed endeavor in general. But if one is to do it, I think it's much more appropriate to judge intentions than consequence (even if this is harder to assess), and my genuine impression is that McCain is both self-sacrificing and well-intended.
Moderator
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23211 Posts
August 26 2018 09:06 GMT
#3695
On August 26 2018 17:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
tbh, I don't really have a problem with public criticism of him following his death. that's fine. I just don't think the criticism has to be extended to the people who - regardless of their opinion of mccain - rather think that his death is a better occasion to remember his positive qualities. I had bigger issues with the 'The only people that will mourn him are anyone gullible enough to believe in the media myth about him of the great maverick.' part of grumbels' posts than with 'good riddance to war criminals' or any other part, because this isn't antagonizing the 'genuine mccain supporters' - ones that I understand wanting to reach out to, but basically anyone who thinks the timing is 'not good'. I also think the argument that 'this is exactly the time' is entirely on point, and I agree with that, but there's a difference between 'I think mccain was not a figure that should be celebrated by contemporary society and history and here are the reasons why' and 'those of you who mourn his death have been duped and only do so due to your own malice or ignorance'. Grumbels' posts approached the latter.

Like I obviously don't like mccain from a policy perspective. I think the invasion of Iraq, together with Israel's treatment of Palestine, have been the two political issues where I have been the most angered by my political opposition, and Mccain perfectly represents my political opposition on these two issues. But that, or napalm bombing vietnam aren't reasons why people are speaking positively about him now. He's being remembered positively for being a calm, collected, reasonable and civil politician with unwavering belief in America and 'her values' during a time where many people think it's kinda crappy how republican politicians have stopped being calm, collected, reasonable, civil, or believing in the values that 'made some people recognize america as great'. And this really isn't a 'but hitler was kind to animals' kind of thing, on a personal level, my impression is that most people genuinely like Mccain.

I mean, I think judging people's morality and character is a flawed endeavor in general. But if one is to do it, I think it's much more appropriate to judge intentions than consequence (even if this is harder to assess), and my genuine impression is that McCain is both self-sacrificing and well-intended.



I can agree with the problem with "those of you who mourn..." from a decorum perspective.

I do have a lot of problems with someone who did and advocated such horrible things being characterized as "reasonable" or "civil" or consider the "made some people recognize America as great" as a positive. I think we agree on that type of discussion being an important part of the dialogue (certainly not banned).

I reject the idea that someone who does such terrible things and sleeps soundly at night with pride in their heart and the idea they did it for good is "reasonable, or "civil" and think that characterizing him as such simply in juxtaposition to an even more unhinged policy group like Republicans/Trump is not only inaccurate but dangerous.

It quite literally puts someone who sings "bomb bomb Iran" to the tune of the Beach Boys in the "reasonable" camp. Someone who said "I'll hate those g**ks as long as I live", opposed MLK day until he needed a NFL stadium, and so on in the "civil" camp.

That's pretty much precisely the problem I see with any attempt to silence criticism of a public figure when everyone's attention is focused on the legacy they leave behind.

I'm trying to do better and I feel like I've made my point so people are free to agree or disagree with as much or little of it as they'd like and I'll let it go.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 26 2018 10:41 GMT
#3696
Although I can sympathize with the sentiment that there can be some cooldown before piling on the criticism upon someone's death, I must say that this seems to be a special case of sorts: the first death in a while for which you'll find as many people who think "good riddance" as those who think "RIP" upon that event. For previous deaths of controversial figures - Castro and Chavez immediately come to mind - it seems that the "good riddance" crowd was a much larger majority, so talking shit about said figures would be far more acceptable. That seems to be the real difference between McCain and any other examples of similar scenarios, which makes this interjection on the part of the moderators to only a single unsympathetic comment to be more about identifying more with the specific person in question and sympathetic views thereof than about respecting the dead in any more meaningful sense.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13918 Posts
August 26 2018 11:43 GMT
#3697
There's also a hint of a non american coming into a thread about america with the express intent to criticize an american political figure and anyone who'd dare to have decency about the event.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
August 26 2018 12:54 GMT
#3698
I've no quarrel with criticism; but it's definitely preferable if the criticism includes some cites/description so it's clear what the actual objection is.

I agree there's a useful distinction to be made between criticism of the person, and criticism of how people respond to the situation.
I think some of the issue also has to do with the tone of the criticism.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 14:57:06
August 26 2018 14:24 GMT
#3699
On August 26 2018 17:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:
tbh, I don't really have a problem with public criticism of him following his death. that's fine. I just don't think the criticism has to be extended to the people who - regardless of their opinion of mccain - rather think that his death is a better occasion to remember his positive qualities. I had bigger issues with the 'The only people that will mourn him are anyone gullible enough to believe in the media myth about him of the great maverick.' part of grumbels' posts than with 'good riddance to war criminals' or any other part, because this isn't antagonizing the 'genuine mccain supporters' - ones that I understand wanting to reach out to, but basically anyone who thinks the timing is 'not good'. I also think the argument that 'this is exactly the time' is entirely on point, and I agree with that, but there's a difference between 'I think mccain was not a figure that should be celebrated by contemporary society and history and here are the reasons why' and 'those of you who mourn his death have been duped and only do so due to your own malice or ignorance'. Grumbels' posts approached the latter.

Like I obviously don't like mccain from a policy perspective. I think the invasion of Iraq, together with Israel's treatment of Palestine, have been the two political issues where I have been the most angered by my political opposition, and Mccain perfectly represents my political opposition on these two issues. But that, or napalm bombing vietnam aren't reasons why people are speaking positively about him now. He's being remembered positively for being a calm, collected, reasonable and civil politician with unwavering belief in America and 'her values' during a time where many people think it's kinda crappy how republican politicians have stopped being calm, collected, reasonable, civil, or believing in the values that 'made some people recognize america as great'. And this really isn't a 'but hitler was kind to animals' kind of thing, on a personal level, my impression is that most people genuinely like Mccain.

I mean, I think judging people's morality and character is a flawed endeavor in general. But if one is to do it, I think it's much more appropriate to judge intentions than consequence (even if this is harder to assess), and my genuine impression is that McCain is both self-sacrificing and well-intended.

I have incredibly few good things to say about McCain's career in politics, but if the only reason he's in the news is that he died, his own death does not bring some happy moment to dredge up all the bad things you've always wanted to call him. Leave that for criticism for a memoir that goes too far immortalizing him. The newsworthiness of his/her death is not an excuse for the enemies to surface and drag him, where otherwise it would be warned for being an out-of-the-blue off-topic slur.

"Let's remember all the evil things Liquid'Drone did in his life" gets a wtf, "Because Liquid'Drone just passed away, I want us to remember he was an evil man who did evil things" gets double. Compare with passing a puppy-kicking law or recently elected to public office, where maybe an expose on character is timely and appropriate for inspiring change.

Maybe a little more germane to the audience:
Pro gamer X suffers a career-ending wrist injury. First response is that X was never good, his game was undeserved, and the scene is better without him. Appropriate because it’s just public criticism, rather than directly insulting his fans?
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10126 Posts
Last Edited: 2018-08-26 15:31:12
August 26 2018 15:30 GMT
#3700
On August 26 2018 23:24 Danglars wrote:
Maybe a little more germane to the audience:
Pro gamer X suffers a career-ending wrist injury. First response is that X was never good, his game was undeserved, and the scene is better without him. Appropriate because it’s just public criticism, rather than directly insulting his fans?
If pro gamer X's games allowed to get thousands of civilians bombed, sure. I mean, if you are trying to do an analogy, you need to keep the morality of those at the same stakes.
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