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US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 291

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Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37032 Posts
May 14 2020 22:55 GMT
#5801
On May 15 2020 07:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
Think it's silly to ban Neb for that. It is clear JimmiC is the problem there imo. He's worse than I was at my worst by practically any metric.

GH, you're not entirely innocent in all of this, so please stay silent while the mods work it out.
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9625 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-14 23:41:10
May 14 2020 23:40 GMT
#5802
voicing my personal opinion that directly calling someone a retard ought to be banned. pretty sure that was standard a handful of years ago.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8998 Posts
May 14 2020 23:44 GMT
#5803
On May 15 2020 08:40 brian wrote:
voicing my personal opinion that directly calling someone a retard ought to be banned. pretty sure that was standard a handful of years ago.

If he had used any other combination of words to get that same point across, would you say the same thing?
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9625 Posts
May 14 2020 23:46 GMT
#5804
no. i think retard is exceptionally objectionable.
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8998 Posts
May 14 2020 23:47 GMT
#5805
On May 15 2020 08:46 brian wrote:
no. i think retard is exceptionally objectionable.

He could have left that last line out, sure, but I don't think it's worth a ban. He was warned. That's good enough for me.
Jockmcplop
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United Kingdom9675 Posts
May 14 2020 23:51 GMT
#5806
Its the worst of the ableist slurs, bannable imo.

RIP Meatloaf <3
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
May 14 2020 23:54 GMT
#5807
Nah that should def be upgraded to a ban.
Never Knows Best.
Zambrah
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States7340 Posts
May 15 2020 02:53 GMT
#5808
I also think TL should be above this level of name calling, granted the US Politics thread is a uniquely below general TL standards place, lol.

I at least think the thread itself has been in an interesting enough place recently.
Incremental change is the Democrat version of Trickle Down economics.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13984 Posts
May 15 2020 05:16 GMT
#5809
It would be one thing if he just rattled it off in the middle of the post but he specifically stoped his typing, put a page break in his post

And then said the word to full effect. Its the difference between saying the n word and using a hard r on the n word.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7902 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-15 12:30:43
May 15 2020 07:42 GMT
#5810
I think the whole problem with that thread is that different people are here to discuss completely different things.

It seems to me that Nebuchad and GH want to talk socialism, revolution, grand utopias and so on, which is fine but I think that could be done on another thread. And when they discuss actual US politics, it's across the prism of those. So it feels - at least to me - the discussion is being constantly derailed.

I personally would like to discuss US politics without having to deal with pages of discussion about whether owning a coffee shop makes you a parasite and an enemy of the people or wether human nature is compatible with totally hypothetical systems that are not on the cards whatsoever for a foreseeable future. I take full responsibility in having been partly responsible of starting such discussions sometimes, but I would like those gone from the thread.

Again, I'm not saying people are not entitled to talk about fringe ideologies if they like them, but I think it deserves its own thread, and the US politics thread should be about US politics. We would save A LOT of frustration this way.

I remember we had an anarcho capitalism thread at one point, which was great, because it meant that if you thought that all the problems of the US came from the fact that there is a state at all and it's not a libertarian utopia, you didn't need to constantly hammer it in the US pol, you could take it to that specific thread. Similarly, in general, I think that if your point in an answer is that X problem in the US is rooted in the fact that the US is not a socialist utopia, you are not contributing.

My two cents.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18049 Posts
May 15 2020 12:31 GMT
#5811
Well, both Neb and GH are banned, so go forth and discuss US politics with no fear of socialist utopias derailing the discussion!
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28685 Posts
May 15 2020 12:57 GMT
#5812
GH and Neb are not having back and forth discussions with each other. If people don't want to discuss something, don't discuss it. I honestly have a hard time fathoming how frequently people complain about the discussions of topics where they themselves facilitate the discussions through taking part, it makes no sense at all.
Moderator
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7902 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-15 13:46:15
May 15 2020 13:40 GMT
#5813
Oh simply because those conversation (or statements) from their extremely controversial - and vague - natures, get much more traction than any concrete political discussions. I've been many times guilty of getting extremely annoyed at one or another poster and feeding a discussion I don't think belongs there. I take responsibility for part of the problem.

And again my solution is simply to have two threads, not to get rid of anyone. The problem is not that we are discussing utopias or radical ideas, it's that we are discussing them in a place that is meant to discuss actual politics.

In a way, maybe having a US politics megablog as GH created once, more oriented to very general ideological discussions would solve most of the tensions.

On May 15 2020 21:31 Acrofales wrote:
Well, both Neb and GH are banned, so go forth and discuss US politics with no fear of socialist utopias derailing the discussion!

They are both temp banned, and it's not them that are the problem, more the vagueness of the thread's topic.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28685 Posts
May 15 2020 14:46 GMT
#5814
This sounds entirely arbitrary to me. Certainly advocating for a socialist revolution is politics? If you want to limit discussion in the US politics megathread to 'what is currently achievable within the american political climate' then you end up with a lot of technical discussions about the power of different institutions and the role of courts. Imo, ideology is an essential component of political discussions, ones that lay the framework for further discussions. Ideological differences might be harder to resolve - but not all political discussions have resolution as a probable or even idealized outcome, sometimes it's about establishing camps. If I'm arguing with Wegandi or Danglars, I'm not trying to convince them to support my cause, I'm trying to make them understand my point of view. If I'm arguing with GH or Neb, the causes are much more closely aligned, then it's more a question of method. All of these discussions have their place within a political megathread, imo.

From my point of view, the main recurring issue of the thread is that some posters aren't able to ignore topics that don't interest them. Not only are they unable to not read the posts, they're not even able to not respond to them. This does not make sense to me, as their actions only reinforce the behavior they want less of.
Moderator
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-15 14:56:23
May 15 2020 14:54 GMT
#5815
I agree with Drone and his reasoning is a large part of why I’m not especially interested in mediating communication errors, errors that mostly turn on personal posting choices instead of substantive translation issues. Folks need to straight up ignore people unless/until they’re able to engage with the interpretive charity necessary for basic discussions. Yes, even I break this rule from time to time, which I try to follow with a break from engagement.

FWIW I like everyone involved for one reason or another, which is another part of why I’m not inclined to specifically referee the choices being made. Folks just need to work on their interaction hygiene.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8998 Posts
May 15 2020 15:08 GMT
#5816
If you say "abolish the police force because it's roots are rotten." and someone responds "how would you replace it? What's the move after there are no police force in the sense that we know them?" And that person doesn't have an answer, what's the point in engaging them further? Most of the ideas presented have a base to work off of, but more often than not, someone is just spouting talking points or regurgitating a text without their own interpretations included.
I've agreed with GH on many things but when asked for his version of a solution, I'm told to go read all of the literature on it because he's just saying what they have already said. That doesn't move the conversation forward. And even when you agree, they want you to repeat it over and over again, like it justifies them in a sense.
I've largely ignored getting into conversations with GH and Neb when they walk into the thread, because I know where it inevitably leads. It's not that I'm not interested, it's that I'm not talking to a person with their own ideas on an established topic, but someone who is just parroting.
If I ask you what you would do to slowly implement socialism into the american political climate while reducing violence at all costs, I want some substance to go with it. I don't want "go read the literature." That doesn't tell me what you think.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
May 15 2020 15:52 GMT
#5817
You guys arguing with gh just want easy answers to complex problems without doing much work yourself it often seems to me.
passive quaranstream fan
ZerOCoolSC2
Profile Blog Joined February 2015
8998 Posts
May 15 2020 16:14 GMT
#5818
On May 16 2020 00:52 Artisreal wrote:
You guys arguing with gh just want easy answers to complex problems without doing much work yourself it often seems to me.

He wants the exact same. It goes both ways. Some are attempting to give those complex problems more thought. It isn't easy but he does himself no favors either.

Either way, they're not here to defend themselves, so it's pointless discussing it further.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
May 15 2020 16:52 GMT
#5819
On May 15 2020 22:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Oh simply because those conversation (or statements) from their extremely controversial - and vague - natures, get much more traction than any concrete political discussions. I've been many times guilty of getting extremely annoyed at one or another poster and feeding a discussion I don't think belongs there. I take responsibility for part of the problem.

And again my solution is simply to have two threads, not to get rid of anyone. The problem is not that we are discussing utopias or radical ideas, it's that we are discussing them in a place that is meant to discuss actual politics.

In a way, maybe having a US politics megablog as GH created once, more oriented to very general ideological discussions would solve most of the tensions.

Show nested quote +
On May 15 2020 21:31 Acrofales wrote:
Well, both Neb and GH are banned, so go forth and discuss US politics with no fear of socialist utopias derailing the discussion!

They are both temp banned, and it's not them that are the problem, more the vagueness of the thread's topic.

Neb is now thread banned as well. Thought I should mention this.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
xM(Z
Profile Joined November 2006
Romania5281 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-05-15 17:27:53
May 15 2020 17:26 GMT
#5820
it's fine, Neb can be a socialist in the EU thread; should be less demanding of his utopias too.
i see most europeans seeing them as cool stories and not something that needs to be put down, attacked, dismantled ...
And my fury stands ready. I bring all your plans to nought. My bleak heart beats steady. 'Tis you whom I have sought.
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