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US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 276

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JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
February 17 2020 01:31 GMT
#5501
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23206 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-17 01:52:36
February 17 2020 01:52 GMT
#5502
On February 17 2020 10:31 JimmiC wrote:
What is wrong with it? Are the oligarchs not directly running China? It is a authoritarian capitalist command economy. Which I think is a terrible for of government. And I thought you would too. Which is why I would also not like Bloomburg. And would prefer Bernie.

But I am different from you in that I do support Bernie and am willing to say who I support and why, even if that might open me up.


Just saying, if you want to talk about China so bad, you should just make another one of your threads but about "Chinese Politics". So you can talk about your supposed Chinese oligarchs in an appropriate venue.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-17 02:13:28
February 17 2020 02:11 GMT
#5503
--- Nuked ---
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23206 Posts
February 17 2020 05:23 GMT
#5504
On February 17 2020 11:11 JimmiC wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2020 10:52 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2020 10:31 JimmiC wrote:
What is wrong with it? Are the oligarchs not directly running China? It is a authoritarian capitalist command economy. Which I think is a terrible for of government. And I thought you would too. Which is why I would also not like Bloomburg. And would prefer Bernie.

But I am different from you in that I do support Bernie and am willing to say who I support and why, even if that might open me up.


Just saying, if you want to talk about China so bad, you should just make another one of your threads but about "Chinese Politics". So you can talk about your supposed Chinese oligarchs in an appropriate venue.


I didn't want to get in a long discussion about the actual Chinese Oligarchs(side note, you don't think China has oligarchs???? WTF???)


Which is my point. Folks either accept your assertion that the US is moving toward being more like "Chinese Oligarchs" or explain how that is historically, economically, and politically inaccurate. They would do so with a lengthy and nuanced discussion of Chinese politics that most would find out of place in the US politics thread.

Personally I have no interest in engaging you in that discussion because I see no value in it. But if perhaps one of the Chinese posters that has detailed this a bit before cared to clear up the confusion, I think it'd be more fitting in a thread dedicated to Chinese politics.

My other point was simply that no one wants you to argue with me or vice versa, especially when it comes to countries like Venezuela, China, etc..., even less so in the US politics thread. So I'm going to continue not to.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17977 Posts
February 17 2020 08:24 GMT
#5505
On February 17 2020 10:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2020 10:01 JimmiC wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
On February 17 2020 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Bloomberg is such an awful person, let alone politician, it is really fascinating to see Democrats contort themselves to deal with the increasingly apparent reality that it is him or Sanders getting the Dem nomination.

But he can beat Trump, apparently.

No he’s fucking awful, fuck him. I’m not even sure why he’s running,

Horrendous candidate and tbh even Trump’s puerile insults might actually land when it comes to Bloomberg anyway.

I’d honestly rather Trump win than a Bloomberg.



That's the beauty of it. If Bloomberg wins the nomination (or they just give it to him as they argued in court they can) it is a win-win election for the oligarchs/plutocracy.

It will make the states a lot more like China where the oligarch's are just the politicians. Then all they need is to do away with peoples rights, free speech, control all the media and they will be all the way there. Scary times we live in.


I like the thread better without posts like these (or me responding to them). Doesn't everyone?


I think this thread would also be better without posts like this. Both posts suffer from the same syndrome: they call something dogshit without adequately explaining why it is dogshit. In the case of Jimmy's "China" post: it's because pointing to two things that are vaguely converging in two otherwise wildly different systems doesn't make the two systems similar.

If you think there are other worrying tendencies that are making the US look more like China, then you're going to have to put in the legwork. If what you're trying to say is "USA is moving further and further away from democracy and the new rule is that whoever has the most money can rule the country", or even just "the USA is going to hell in a handbag", you can do that without invoking China as the boogieman.

In the case of GH's post: it's because he (presumably) wanted to say all that, but instead posted a snide one-liner.

Both are bad posts, simply because they don't express the reasoning required to support the post's conclusion. So how about you both cut out the sniping and play nice for a change?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23206 Posts
February 17 2020 09:04 GMT
#5506
On February 17 2020 17:24 Acrofales wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2020 10:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2020 10:01 JimmiC wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
On February 17 2020 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Bloomberg is such an awful person, let alone politician, it is really fascinating to see Democrats contort themselves to deal with the increasingly apparent reality that it is him or Sanders getting the Dem nomination.

But he can beat Trump, apparently.

No he’s fucking awful, fuck him. I’m not even sure why he’s running,

Horrendous candidate and tbh even Trump’s puerile insults might actually land when it comes to Bloomberg anyway.

I’d honestly rather Trump win than a Bloomberg.



That's the beauty of it. If Bloomberg wins the nomination (or they just give it to him as they argued in court they can) it is a win-win election for the oligarchs/plutocracy.

It will make the states a lot more like China where the oligarch's are just the politicians. Then all they need is to do away with peoples rights, free speech, control all the media and they will be all the way there. Scary times we live in.


I like the thread better without posts like these (or me responding to them). Doesn't everyone?


I think this thread would also be better without posts like this. Both posts suffer from the same syndrome: they call something dogshit without adequately explaining why it is dogshit. In the case of Jimmy's "China" post: it's because pointing to two things that are vaguely converging in two otherwise wildly different systems doesn't make the two systems similar.

If you think there are other worrying tendencies that are making the US look more like China, then you're going to have to put in the legwork. If what you're trying to say is "USA is moving further and further away from democracy and the new rule is that whoever has the most money can rule the country", or even just "the USA is going to hell in a handbag", you can do that without invoking China as the boogieman.

In the case of GH's post: it's because he (presumably) wanted to say all that, but instead posted a snide one-liner.

Both are bad posts, simply because they don't express the reasoning required to support the post's conclusion. So how about you both cut out the sniping and play nice for a change?


I'd go with pithy, but communication isn't a one way street I suppose. I was under the impression everyone would understand it the way you did otherwise. I did provide a more lengthy explanation (similar to yours) afterwords though.

I'd just add that my post was simply sharing my feedback that I preferred when JimmiC had taken a break from posts like that, and that I thought everyone else did too. Apologies if its terseness was harsher than intended.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JimmiC
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Canada22817 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-17 18:21:43
February 17 2020 18:19 GMT
#5507
--- Nuked ---
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9617 Posts
February 17 2020 20:42 GMT
#5508
i would never have gleaned Acrofales’s interpretation from that post and actually sympathize with Jimmi on this one. this is a fairly drab +1 post but because i’m always so eager to post in opposition i figured i’d get on the record here too
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
February 17 2020 21:41 GMT
#5509
maybe we should call socialist revolutionary oligarchs
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-18 09:42:18
February 18 2020 09:41 GMT
#5510
On February 17 2020 10:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2020 10:01 JimmiC wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
On February 17 2020 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Bloomberg is such an awful person, let alone politician, it is really fascinating to see Democrats contort themselves to deal with the increasingly apparent reality that it is him or Sanders getting the Dem nomination.

But he can beat Trump, apparently.

No he’s fucking awful, fuck him. I’m not even sure why he’s running,

Horrendous candidate and tbh even Trump’s puerile insults might actually land when it comes to Bloomberg anyway.

I’d honestly rather Trump win than a Bloomberg.



That's the beauty of it. If Bloomberg wins the nomination (or they just give it to him as they argued in court they can) it is a win-win election for the oligarchs/plutocracy.

It will make the states a lot more like China where the oligarch's are just the politicians. Then all they need is to do away with peoples rights, free speech, control all the media and they will be all the way there. Scary times we live in.


I like the thread better without posts like these (or me responding to them). Doesn't everyone?
We can do without that post. Doesn't everyone?

Apparently it's not enough for GH to turn the US Pol thread into his personal playground where dissenters are treated in the most condescending manner; not even discussing politics is allowed, where an innoculous discussion on the nature of oligarchy cannot be allowed to occur, as that disagreements is dissent from GH's opinions.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23206 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-02-18 10:49:29
February 18 2020 10:38 GMT
#5511
On February 18 2020 18:41 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2020 10:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2020 10:01 JimmiC wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 17 2020 09:03 Wombat_NI wrote:
On February 17 2020 08:38 GreenHorizons wrote:
Bloomberg is such an awful person, let alone politician, it is really fascinating to see Democrats contort themselves to deal with the increasingly apparent reality that it is him or Sanders getting the Dem nomination.

But he can beat Trump, apparently.

No he’s fucking awful, fuck him. I’m not even sure why he’s running,

Horrendous candidate and tbh even Trump’s puerile insults might actually land when it comes to Bloomberg anyway.

I’d honestly rather Trump win than a Bloomberg.



That's the beauty of it. If Bloomberg wins the nomination (or they just give it to him as they argued in court they can) it is a win-win election for the oligarchs/plutocracy.

It will make the states a lot more like China where the oligarch's are just the politicians. Then all they need is to do away with peoples rights, free speech, control all the media and they will be all the way there. Scary times we live in.


I like the thread better without posts like these (or me responding to them). Doesn't everyone?
We can do without that post. Doesn't everyone?

Apparently it's not enough for GH to turn the US Pol thread into his personal playground where dissenters are treated in the most condescending manner; not even discussing politics is allowed, where an innoculous discussion on the nature of oligarchy cannot be allowed to occur, as that disagreements is dissent from GH's opinions.


I don't have a problem with people discussing (or disagreeing with me on) whether the US is (or becoming) an oligarchy. The issue I had was about being baited (imo) into an argument with JimmiC over the applicability/topicality of his interjection about China.

Which Biff (not a fan of mine) also covered

Which I can agree with you was probably unnecessarily condescending though I'm not sure Acro's description of "dogshit" is measurably better. (EDIT: realized he said "bad posts", "dog shit" was how he said we were characterizing each others posts, so it is better I think)

FWIW bad opinions have always been condescended too, ostracized, etc here imo. Even before I was posting and I just lurked. So I don't think it is fair to try to blame me for it. Which ideas those are have changed since back in the days I was just lurking though, and I would humbly take at least a little credit for that. I also think it has generally been a good thing
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15672 Posts
March 02 2020 19:56 GMT
#5512
Why in the world do we currently have 2 politics topics? The democrat primary thread is entirely redundant. We have all the same conversations. Just look at the last 20 pages. Completely useless.
themtc516
Profile Joined March 2020
9 Posts
March 05 2020 18:53 GMT
#5513
Long time lurker here, since about page 2000 of the old thread. Never had an account either until today so I understand if no one cares what I have to say based on my lack of posting history.

But is it too much to ask for a mod or two to have a word with JimmiC????

The guy clearly has some strange personal vendetta against a member of this website and it's infected his posting and it's dragging down this usually awesome thread. I know he fully mucked up the thread for multiple pages a few months ago, and id hate for that to happen again as I love reading the discussions that take place here in my spare time. I dont agree with all of GH's conclusions either but it's undeniable that he has taken his time to outline and frame his worldview in a very clear and succinct manner. Im sorry if you dont agree with that framework, but I dont think that gives anyone the right to quote every future post he makes and attack him for things he has never said. It really drags the thread down. GH has shown more patience than I personally would have to outline and frame his argument in a professional and academic way. It's very disingenuous to try and morph his arguments and conclusions into a framework that you accept instead when hes gone out of his way MANY times to try and get you to understand. Most the rest of us do understand by the way. It seems GH has finally stopped responding to the nonsense for now so at least that is progress.

Anyways thanks for your time and thank you all for the years of interesting discussions. Carry on.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 05 2020 20:17 GMT
#5514
On March 06 2020 03:53 themtc516 wrote:
Long time lurker here, since about page 2000 of the old thread. Never had an account either until today so I understand if no one cares what I have to say based on my lack of posting history.

But is it too much to ask for a mod or two to have a word with JimmiC????

The guy clearly has some strange personal vendetta against a member of this website and it's infected his posting and it's dragging down this usually awesome thread. I know he fully mucked up the thread for multiple pages a few months ago, and id hate for that to happen again as I love reading the discussions that take place here in my spare time. I dont agree with all of GH's conclusions either but it's undeniable that he has taken his time to outline and frame his worldview in a very clear and succinct manner. Im sorry if you dont agree with that framework, but I dont think that gives anyone the right to quote every future post he makes and attack him for things he has never said. It really drags the thread down. GH has shown more patience than I personally would have to outline and frame his argument in a professional and academic way. It's very disingenuous to try and morph his arguments and conclusions into a framework that you accept instead when hes gone out of his way MANY times to try and get you to understand. Most the rest of us do understand by the way. It seems GH has finally stopped responding to the nonsense for now so at least that is progress.

Anyways thanks for your time and thank you all for the years of interesting discussions. Carry on.

You aren’t the first to notice that this is how it is, but the most active moderator has made his position clear on this matter:

On September 27 2019 13:28 Seeker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 27 2019 13:00 LegalLord wrote:
Frankly, it seems like Seeker's complimentary attitude towards JimmiC is borne of there being a much longer history of moderation gripes with GH. While I don't follow the main thread too much anymore, what I see here and in that thread is mostly a lot of low-key baiting attempts that look like they're started primarily by JC. I'm sure that others might say that GH is the problem, though I personally don't see anything too different from the last however many years we've all done this.

Feels like the answer should be that everyone stops the baiting game, but we're well past the point where anyone is going to give up on that. Everyone is addicted to snark and has a history of grudges.

No. Don't overthink this. JimmiC is a good person. GH is not. Plain and simple.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
themtc516
Profile Joined March 2020
9 Posts
March 05 2020 21:10 GMT
#5515
Well thats upsetting, but his site his rules i suppose.

I understand gripes people have with GH and how he comes off but the bottom line is that his position is consistent and hes gone out of his way to get people to understand. I mean go look at the last 8 posts in the thread by JC. Nothing but bad faith and baiting. I hope GH continues to show restraint and just never respond to the guy anymore so we dont get a repeat of the nonsense from a few months ago.


Thanks for the insight LL.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10696 Posts
March 05 2020 22:23 GMT
#5516
At this point GH is just a doom and gloom preacher, nothing more. I don't get what some people see in his postings, i stopped commenting on them mostly for that reason.
Arguing about anything with him, well.. Try hitting a wall, at least it will hurt your fist. GH will just ignore you because he has no answer aside from "capitalism/usa BAD". Endless whataboutism once confronted are all you ever get out of him, clear statements or ideas? Who needs them, we are all doomed anyway.

LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
March 05 2020 22:28 GMT
#5517
On March 06 2020 07:23 Velr wrote:
At this point GH is just a doom and gloom preacher, nothing more. I don't get what some people see in his postings, i stopped commenting on them mostly for that reason.
Arguing about anything with him, well.. Try hitting a wall, at least it will hurt your fist. GH will just ignore you because he has no answer aside from "capitalism/usa BAD". Endless whataboutism once confronted are all you ever get out of him, clear statements or ideas? Who needs them, we are all doomed anyway.


Well you certainly don't have to agree with him, but that hardly means that polluting the thread with thinly veiled attempts to troll bait him is the right answer.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23206 Posts
March 05 2020 22:29 GMT
#5518
On March 06 2020 03:53 themtc516 wrote:
Long time lurker here, since about page 2000 of the old thread. Never had an account either until today so I understand if no one cares what I have to say based on my lack of posting history.

But is it too much to ask for a mod or two to have a word with JimmiC????

The guy clearly has some strange personal vendetta against a member of this website and it's infected his posting and it's dragging down this usually awesome thread. I know he fully mucked up the thread for multiple pages a few months ago, and id hate for that to happen again as I love reading the discussions that take place here in my spare time. I dont agree with all of GH's conclusions either but it's undeniable that he has taken his time to outline and frame his worldview in a very clear and succinct manner. Im sorry if you dont agree with that framework, but I dont think that gives anyone the right to quote every future post he makes and attack him for things he has never said. It really drags the thread down. GH has shown more patience than I personally would have to outline and frame his argument in a professional and academic way. It's very disingenuous to try and morph his arguments and conclusions into a framework that you accept instead when hes gone out of his way MANY times to try and get you to understand. Most the rest of us do understand by the way. It seems GH has finally stopped responding to the nonsense for now so at least that is progress.

Anyways thanks for your time and thank you all for the years of interesting discussions. Carry on.


I appreciate the thoughtful words and effort to address the issue.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
themtc516
Profile Joined March 2020
9 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-05 23:05:09
March 05 2020 23:01 GMT
#5519
On March 06 2020 07:23 Velr wrote:
At this point GH is just a doom and gloom preacher, nothing more. I don't get what some people see in his postings, i stopped commenting on them mostly for that reason.
Arguing about anything with him, well.. Try hitting a wall, at least it will hurt your fist. GH will just ignore you because he has no answer aside from "capitalism/usa BAD". Endless whataboutism once confronted are all you ever get out of him, clear statements or ideas? Who needs them, we are all doomed anyway.




I really dont understand takes like this. Like i said:

He has clearly and consistently laid out his reasons for why he believes this at least 10-20 times in the last year. He seems pretty set on it and like i said its consistent logically, so either you can argue within the framework he has set up or you can move on. Or hell, take the time to set up your own framework and maybe if it's worthwhile he will engage. Maybe he won't. But no one is saying he needs to accept yours on its face, just like you dont accept his. It's just that instead of not engaging, you and JimmiC and DMCD etc cant seem to accept that; then you get all flustered, and instead of disengaging you choose to comment in bad faith, mis-characterize his arguments, bait him, or sometimes just ad hominem him. It's unacceptable in any reasonable debate or academic setting.

I dont think that you guys are bad people or even have any malicious intent. I think its mostly due to miscommunications based on the fact that GH is arguing for a hypothetical audience of doctoral students while you and JC seem to think this is a CNN/Fox News roundtable or a casual conversation among your workmates. There's different requirements that need to be met based on the audience and setting.

I dunno, I dont want this to be a thing I just like to see the thread go smoothly.

edit: and before anyone brings up what Mohdoo touched on in the thread where i first incorrectly posted this. Ive been around awhile, I understand how GH used to be. I also remember how hes served his time through bans etc. I also remember how he tried to start his own thread/blog to avoid some of these issues that was then highjacked by JC only to get shut down. Like i said im hopeful that he will just continue not to respond to you guys, demonstrating his growth.
Nouar
Profile Joined May 2009
France3270 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-03-05 23:39:31
March 05 2020 23:38 GMT
#5520
On March 06 2020 08:01 themtc516 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 06 2020 07:23 Velr wrote:
At this point GH is just a doom and gloom preacher, nothing more. I don't get what some people see in his postings, i stopped commenting on them mostly for that reason.
Arguing about anything with him, well.. Try hitting a wall, at least it will hurt your fist. GH will just ignore you because he has no answer aside from "capitalism/usa BAD". Endless whataboutism once confronted are all you ever get out of him, clear statements or ideas? Who needs them, we are all doomed anyway.




I really dont understand takes like this. Like i said:

He has clearly and consistently laid out his reasons for why he believes this at least 10-20 times in the last year. He seems pretty set on it and like i said its consistent logically, so either you can argue within the framework he has set up or you can move on. Or hell, take the time to set up your own framework and maybe if it's worthwhile he will engage. Maybe he won't. But no one is saying he needs to accept yours on its face, just like you dont accept his. It's just that instead of not engaging, you and JimmiC and DMCD etc cant seem to accept that; then you get all flustered, and instead of disengaging you choose to comment in bad faith, mis-characterize his arguments, bait him, or sometimes just ad hominem him. It's unacceptable in any reasonable debate or academic setting.

I dont think that you guys are bad people or even have any malicious intent. I think its mostly due to miscommunications based on the fact that GH is arguing for a hypothetical audience of doctoral students while you and JC seem to think this is a CNN/Fox News roundtable or a casual conversation among your workmates. There's different requirements that need to be met based on the audience and setting.

I dunno, I dont want this to be a thing I just like to see the thread go smoothly.

edit: and before anyone brings up what Mohdoo touched on in the thread where i first incorrectly posted this. Ive been around awhile, I understand how GH used to be. I also remember how hes served his time through bans etc. I also remember how he tried to start his own thread/blog to avoid some of these issues that was then highjacked by JC only to get shut down. Like i said im hopeful that he will just continue not to respond to you guys, demonstrating his growth.


Just to add that I am feeling the same. These past few monthes, efforts were made, and there is an awful lot of baiting and posts targeted specifically to try to catch him. It's becoming painful to look at.
GH's positions are what they are, but he is articulating them a lot better, and still gets targeted on a daily basis.

I am not sure Seeker's post from september is really reflecting what happens these days.
NoiR
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