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I am pretty sure nobody will ever take any action because of this, but there is an age old adage "take it to the website feedback", so I may as well rant here with the added bonus that there is further place I can be shown to (apart from disneyland).
I feel that permabanning users has gotten out of hand. I have had my beef with biased moderation, agenda pushing etc... before, but this is completely different, because it's not me being angry, but just me being sad. It happens over and over again that someone is just slightly annoying and "not posting exactly the way mods love it", but for a long time and he gets banned here and there for an agressive remark, is watched more and more strictly and then permabanned. While as a punishment progression, this feels reasonable, in practice, it doesn't make any sense at all. What it means is that certain kinds of people are allowed to be here for a limited amount of time. What the hell is the point of that?
Yes, second chances, they will likely be allowed as a PBU later (because they haven't done anything really grave), and then likely banned after another period. Or another similiar guy will show up. So in practice, we still have some number of "unpleasant" people here at any given, only it's different people or accounts. Is that really the desired outcome?
If I weren't bored to such depths that I started to follow the ABL, I would never even notice many of these cases, but I am so I did and it is truly amazing how frequent this situation is and how many people who used to be really active in many parts of the forum or gone just because "the cup has overflown" (not really having an idea how is this idiom in English). I think the mods should just let go of this absurd need to permaban people after a certain amount of issues and use this tool only for serious cases and just temp these trouble makers here and there as a slap on a wrist over and over again, if they really feel the need to. Otherwise the forum is stupidly loosing people it really doesn't have to.
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TLADT24920 Posts
You realize that many of those that get permed have something like 20-30 mod notes on their file? In other words, they've been warned and temp banned so much that at some point, you gotta draw the line.
Other times, the poster is posting so badly and calls for him to stop have had not effect. In general, it's for the first and very rarely the second but so long as TL mods stay fair in a discussion, I have no problems with the way they are handling things.
Was there a specific ban that got you to make this post?
Edit: keep in mind TL's ten commandments, this is their house and their rules after all.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
While I won't address the rest of your post now (I will get to that later, though - I'm too busy to write up a longer post right this moment), I would like to bring up the fact that the total amount of mod actions on TL has gone down quite drastically over the last two years. You may be more exposed to these bans now since you frequent the ABL, but it really isn't as frequent an occurance as you make it seem.
If you can, provide examples or name the cases that you think were really unfair.
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I think it is pretty obvious that the ban that pushed me to finally write this was Sated, given the timeline. He was in my opinion a good contributor, I enjoyed his posts even though I stopped playing Protoss a year ago and didn't really do anything that would disrupt the forums significantly.
But that's not really the point, I don't think that it should be about the bans "being fair", this is not school or a competition, but a community and I think that mods overzealously banning people to give them some hypothetical "lessons" is hurting the community by removing interesting people from it, that's really all.
I don't really keep a diary of people I think shouldn't have been banned, it's just a feeling. From the top of my head, I remember maybe MasterOfPuppets, he was someone who never wrote anything really offensive, but the mods just got fed up with him - back then I went quite often to General and I enjoyed his no bullshit attitude to many things.
edit: one could ask - why do I care? true, I don't post a lot, but I like this forum and spend a lot of time just reading random stuff here. Maybe I should do something else with my life, sure, but in the meanwhile, TL it is.
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People you like got banned. That's too bad. Perms on non-bot users are down though.
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On February 10 2015 22:44 farvacola wrote:
People you like got banned. That's too bad. Perms on non-bot users are down though.
should we campain to bring back samizdat despite the mod conspiracy against him ?
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I honestly doubt that perm banning got out of hand.
can you name 3 three people getting perm banned unfairly? (you can count salted as one)
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On February 10 2015 23:26 sabas123 wrote:
I honestly doubt that perm banning got out of hand.
can you name 3 three people getting perm banned unfairly? (you can count salted as one)
counting someone with tons of mod actions and already 1 acc permed as unfair ?
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#freeroffles
#freeshauni
#freestated
#freesamz!dat
#freeshamas
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your Country52797 Posts
I believe that users are only perm-banned when the amount they contribute isn't worth enough to have them around, which requires a significant amount of evidence on the toxicity of a high-post user. They're not getting banned for stepping out of line a few times despite helping out a bit and being overall a good poster, they're being banned for being harmful to the point where they're almost irredeemable.
I don't know a lot about MasterOfPuppets, but a quick search tells me he has 6-7 bans and finds this post.
On April 14 2014 10:11 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2014 10:10 chaos021 wrote:
I don't understand why MasterOfPuppets was banned for the previous post. He was not banned for that specific post but rather a large selection of similarly unpleasant posts. However, if you have questions about moderation you should take them to Website Feedback and not this thread.
So it seems pretty clear for me that he was being toxic to the site and wasn't worth having around.
Sated has balance whined for years, and someone already argued for his return. He's been banned a lot already and has never changed.
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On February 10 2015 23:29 Skynx wrote:
#freeroffles
#freeshauni
#freestated
#freesamz!dat
#freeshamas
free all the shamas.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
man i just want shauni back
edit: also, the number of mod actions is down significantly. Between today and one year ago, there were ~89 pages of bans. Between February 10, 2014 and 2013, there were 185 pages. This is including the annoying increase in adbots this year. So mods are a looooot softer these days.
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On February 10 2015 23:29 Skynx wrote:
#freeroffles
Isn't Roffles a mod now?
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Germany25657 Posts
Moderation is a lot less strict than before, I've seen to that personally 
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Canada11367 Posts
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Coming from someone with over 3000 reports made I can confirm that the amount of red text under posts reduced significantly once Kaddy started handling most of the reports.
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It's funny how the first reply in that thread mentions you as a possible precedent for unbanning 
Anyone discussing how anything is fair or not has either not read what I wrote at all or decided to start his own discussion regardless.
The amount of bans is not a very good evidence. Likely it's because the decline of SC2 popularity if anything (or because anyone who cared enough has been already banned).
I am not against moderation in general - but sometimes it gets too far.. I just don't like when the moderation team creates a model personality of a poster they like and ban out everyone who differs enough from that. I can't obviously change mods' mind about that, but the mere existence of this section makes it seem that their are interested in feedback (if it's not supposed to be just a garbage dumb), so here I am feeding you back.
edit: a small afterthought: I have seen several comments in the vein of "Sated asked for that/deserved that" etc... I have the feeling that this community should be a little over this kind of childish tit for tat behaviour, shouldn't it? Maybe I am dellusional and surrounded by a crowd of angry teenagers, but I would guess that by now the vast majority of the TL's population are grown adults who should be capable of dealing with their mutual issues.
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On February 11 2015 05:05 opisska wrote:It's funny how the first reply in that thread mentions you as a possible precedent for unbanning Anyone discussing how anything is fair or not has either not read what I wrote at all or decided to start his own discussion regardless. The amount of bans is not a very good evidence. Likely it's because the decline of SC2 popularity if anything (or because anyone who cared enough has been already banned). I am not against moderation in general - but sometimes it gets too far.. I just don't like when the moderation team creates a model personality of a poster they like and ban out everyone who differs enough from that. I can't obviously change mods' mind about that, but the mere existence of this section makes it seem that their are interested in feedback (if it's not supposed to be just a garbage dumb), so here I am feeding you back. edit: a small afterthought: I have seen several comments in the vein of "Sated asked for that/deserved that" etc... I have the feeling that this community should be a little over this kind of childish tit for tat behaviour, shouldn't it? Maybe I am dellusional and surrounded by a crowd of angry teenagers, but I would guess that by now the vast majority of the TL's population are grown adults who should be capable of dealing with their mutual issues.
Mods don´t "create a model personality of a poster they like", there simply is a realm of posting which is deemed acceptable by the mods. That realm is shaped by objective criteria (like the Ten Commandments or "no twitch-memes") as well as the subjective stance towards a post/ posts of a certain user.
So far, that has worked out quite well as there are real discussions going on here and no annoying trolls hovering around. Thus, a change in moderation seems unnecessary.
Also, you have not brought up any specific permanent bans (apart from Sated) which should be revoked, because their posting wasn´t that bad (in your opinion).
Regarding your assumption you´re "surrounded by a crowd of angry teenagers", check out the latest TL Census.
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Canada11367 Posts
The thing is the purpose of moderation is so that there will hopefully be a change of behaviour so that moderation is unnecessary. If a perm'd poster is brought back in on the understanding that he will change his posting habits, and then does not. . .we're not going to endlessly slap their wrist. They clearly don't care enough about TL to shape up their posting.
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samz!dat should be allowed back simply because that quote about chimps howling was one of my favorite insults ever
other than that and roffles I cant even think of any example of what you are be talking about op. and as much as I may have liked those two it is hard to sit there and defend those bans.
On February 11 2015 04:42 Cokefreak wrote:
Coming from someone with over 3000 reports made I can confirm that the amount of red text under posts reduced significantly once Kaddy started handling most of the reports.
Can we hijack the thread to change Cokefreak's name to THIRSTYNERD? I've never someone so desperate to become an authority figure on the internet!
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Canada11367 Posts
There used to be someone that created all these graphs, tracking all bans by moderator from the beginning of the TL's existence. (Can't remember who made that.) If that person had continued, we could have had an indicator of whether the use of perm's have increased or decreased.
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Germany25657 Posts
It's definitely decreased, I don't even need to see any statistics.
Not counting adbots of course, those have increased in the last couple of months for some reason.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50531 Posts
On February 11 2015 06:08 QuanticHawk wrote:samz!dat should be allowed back simply because that quote about chimps howling was one of my favorite insults ever other than that and roffles I cant even think of any example of what you are be talking about op. and as much as I may have liked those two it is hard to sit there and defend those bans. Show nested quote +On February 11 2015 04:42 Cokefreak wrote:
Coming from someone with over 3000 reports made I can confirm that the amount of red text under posts reduced significantly once Kaddy started handling most of the reports. Can we hijack the thread to change Cokefreak's name to THIRSTYNERD? I've never someone so desperate to become an authority figure on the internet!
we actually have a prison snitch name for him and its Heather.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/95875-the-automated-ban-list?page=1577#31531
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In a thread about bans, I guess it was only a matter of time for this to come up.
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mod actions went down because you dudes! swiftly kill the would be 'hot-topics';
so, besides some petty and mild hate speeches/opinions and balance whining, there's nothing to moderate.
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It's really hard to get banned generally. Even warned is really impossible unless you go around acting like a cunt. So anyone who gets perma totally deserves it.
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On February 18 2015 21:39 Subversive wrote:
It's really hard to get banned generally. Even warned is really impossible unless you go around acting like a cunt. So anyone who gets perma totally deserves it.
Some people respectfully disagree
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On February 11 2015 06:08 QuanticHawk wrote:
samz!dat should be allowed back simply because that quote about chimps howling was one of my favorite insults ever
I'll second this.
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On February 10 2015 21:41 opisska wrote:
I think it is pretty obvious that the ban that pushed me to finally write this was Sated, given the timeline. He was in my opinion a good contributor, I enjoyed his posts even though I stopped playing Protoss a year ago and didn't really do anything that would disrupt the forums significantly.
His posting seemed half and half to me. Sometimes, like when talking about PvX strategies or what have you, he was perfectly fine. In other threads though, his posting was tantamount to trolling, containing many forms of personal attacks and ad hominems. Trying to have any sort of intellectual discussion with him was frustrating when it wasn't outright impossible.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On February 11 2015 06:24 Falling wrote:
There used to be someone that created all these graphs, tracking all bans by moderator from the beginning of the TL's existence. (Can't remember who made that.) If that person had continued, we could have had an indicator of whether the use of perm's have increased or decreased.
It was spazer and he doesn't do it anymore because apparently TL changed something that made how he gathered the data obsolete and he was too lazy to set up a new method.
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EPT
