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I don't think it's some kind of conspiracy. I think it's simply good business. Does it not being "a conspiracy to remove BW content" rather than "removing BW content" preclude me from disliking the changes? If you're rolling out new design then honestly how much harder and how much dead space would a little BW stuff be?
The BW R&S links are gone, but the equivalent SC2 links remain. What makes the BW ones static content and the SC2 ones not?
SC2 Liquipedia finds a place but there is no dropdown box to select BW? If TLPD were implemented now would that keep it's BW box?
As for the SC2 elo rankings on display, that is frankly silly. When it doesn't change it's static content. When it does change it's result spoilers. On every single page.
Honestly, if something was looking for the chop it should be the BW replay section. It's clearly the most niche, static thing and would find a home buried in menus much easier than BW R&S and PR.
As for the Chill post, no, that is not relevant. It's not like we, as BW community, can just make an effort to 'keep our stuff on the sidebar'. It isn't about TL staff neglecting BW. You didn't neglect to keep BW from being replaced by SC2 on the sidebar - it took effort to do so.
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On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant. Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW. What the hell are you talking about? I thought the majority of staff were volunteers? Are you guys getting paid to do SC2 stuff only and that's why nobody has time for BW?
If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful.
I, for one, am tired of never seeing BW events in the calendar till the day before and I'm tired of having to wait up to 12-18 hours before seeing liquipedia updated because afaik only one person is working on those things right now, Antoine? I saw the "submit your event" thread by Chill but that is a really stupid way around the problem, imao, that will likely result in massive duplicate submissions and extra work. Just hire people to add these events from the BW community and most of the whining will likely disappear.
I'll even approve of the PR being gone from the sidebar if we get the BW ELO equivalent like SC2 has now. Because as it looks right now, you replaced the PR with the SC2 ranking. It may not have been your ultimate intention but it looks really, really bad to us "BW zealots". You should have waited till R1CH had the BW ranking coded too before removing the PR. That would have eliminated much of this whining. We lost the PR and gained nothing in return.
"I will not sacrifice the Enterprise. We've made too many compromises already, too many retreats. They invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far and no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done!" - Jean-Luc Picard
Well, we won't make you pay for anything but I think we've definitely reached a line here.
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United States10328 Posts
What... at least put it at the bottom, below the poll if you have to. It won't be taking up much space (or bandwidth--it's text) if it's down there. TL without the power rank (or TLFE for that matter) on the sidebar is just... ... saddening. (And if you're trying to save space, why is the TSL forum still there when there's no TSL?)
On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:
If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful.
I, for one, am tired of never seeing BW events in the calendar till the day before and I'm tired of having to wait up to 12-18 hours before seeing liquipedia updated because afaik only one person is working on those things right now, Antoine? I saw the "submit your event" thread by Chill but that is a really stupid way around the problem, imao, that will likely result in massive duplicate submissions and extra work. Just hire people to add these events from the BW community and most of the whining will likely disappear.
hi, we exist, sort of. But the few of us "holding the line," so to speak (dedicated to BW mostly)---HawaiianPig/Waxangel/riptide/Xxio are half and half---are flamewheel, swanized, Kiante, nbaker, contagi0n, Kwark, mustaju, tree.hugger, harem, Ver when we can get his godly help, and me (and I've been lazy as hell recently with the MSL in limbo and no Chinese articles to translate. Oh shit DES has Chinese now jk). Plus there are the "community contributers" to our news pieces: TTT, lightwip, and lots of others. Then there are translators like infinitestory/white_horse/spica/smix/opticalshot/kyuukyuu/Milkis!![despite his MLG adventures he still loves BW!]/so many others I can't remember; OP creators/LR-ers (zona is leaving us...  ); streamers (GTR, nanashin, etc. Only a year and a half ago there were like 5 streams at once @_@); and last but not least, graphics from HP/disciple/silversky.
Of these, I guess there aren't that many "higher-ups" anymore (reds): only Wax/Riptide/disciple still do BW, and they do sc2 stuff too. Among blues, there are the new ones, HP and flamewheel.
The community is still doing awesome things for BW, but the community itself is shrinking. And I guess BW staff "representation" is decreasing, though the large majority of staff still enjoy watching /following BW, at least occasionally. So... if you'd like to, please step up and help us with coverage and LR threads and streaming and translation and whatever else you think you can help with.
apologies if my information is only 90% accurate
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In general I like the new design of the right sidebar. The liquipedia section there doesn't let you choose between BW and SC2 but that's no big deal because if I want that I can just go to one of the 2 buttons for Liquipedia in the top bars.
However I feel that with the addition of the Liquipedia section in the right side bar the Liquipedia button on the bar between Features and Store has become redundant and it's removal would be a good thing imo. The Liquipedia button on the utmost top bar between TLPro and TSL3 serves exactly the same purpose but let's you go to the Liquipedia main site first before you make the choice between BW and SC2.
And no removing the button between Features and Store doesn't result in an extra click because there I have to hoover over the button first before I can make a choice so that's actually more timeconsuming / annoying to me.
ps. I have no idea if it's possible but I guess from reading the comments in this thread a lot of people would be happy if when you change the TLPD section from SC2 to BW the ELO would be changed to the BW ELO or Power rank or something like that.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant. On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW. If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful.
That's the point. There are tons of volunteers for these things for SC2 but no-one volunteers for BW anymore. If someone came along and said that they'd like ensure that the Calender is updated for BW events every week, or write some BW final edits then the staff would love it. As Plexa says, most of us watch both SC2 and BW. However, no-one has done that, which is what's led to the dearth of content for BW. Being volunteers, every staff member chooses how they wish to contribute, and as it is, there just aren't people choosing to contribute to BW right now.
What Chill is saying is that If the BW scene wants more effort put into the BW scene, then they need to volunteer to put that effort in. That's how everything is done on TL.
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Saw this coming but disappointing nonetheless. Especially since the OSL Ro8 is in less than 2 days time.
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United States22883 Posts
On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant. On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW. What the hell are you talking about? I thought the majority of staff were volunteers? Are you guys getting paid to do SC2 stuff only and that's why nobody has time for BW? If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful. I think his point is that the positions are open. If you want more BW content, help produce it. Liquipedia is a perfect example, since the explicit design of wikis is such that you don't need to be staff to operate them. I think you're seeing an imaginary divide between staff and community. You could just as easily be the next person to take up slack off of [Antoine]'s shoulders, or write a new TLFE or a weekly roundup. "Hire me and then I'll do it" is not the attitude TL.net has ever had, I don't think.
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I can understand adding the Starcraft 2 ranks thing thats there thats fine even quite cool. I can also understand putting it above the Broodwar one's because more people come here for SC2. But I don't understand why the Broodwar one has to be deleted completely. Even if no one's prepared to write a full power rank once a month (which I find unlikely) you could put a Broodwar one based solely on ELO just like the SC2 one.
I also don't understand how mods can think deleting Broodwar content and replacing it with SC2 is preferable to adding the SC2 content and having both. Or how they can argue that they don't understand why people are getting upset that they thought deleting Broodwar content and replacing it with identical SC2 content could possibly be seen as a SC2 vs Broodwar thing.
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On August 24 2011 21:34 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant. On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW. If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful. That's the point. There are tons of volunteers for these things for SC2 but no-one volunteers for BW anymore. If someone came along and said that they'd like ensure that the Calender is updated for BW events every week, or write some BW final edits then the staff would love it. As Plexa says, most of us watch both SC2 and BW. However, no-one has done that, which is what's led to the dearth of content for BW. Being volunteers, every staff member chooses how they wish to contribute, and as it is, there just aren't people choosing to contribute to BW right now. What Chill is saying is that If the BW scene wants more effort put into the BW scene, then they need to volunteer to put that effort in. That's how everything is done on TL.
But this doesn't make any sense! We had (have) a PR and we had (have) R&S threads but they were defeatured. We're not asking you to make us more content! We're asking you to leave the content we already make alone!
Just look at the new SC2 content in the sidebar. It's TLPD SC2 Elo. The TLPD BW Elo is kept up to date and yet that is not featured! (So the difference here is not content production like you try to make it sound)
I don't understand how you're trying to turn this thread into some strange rationale that the BW is no longer produced when that is absoutely not what has happened here.
"We're moving your content off the sidebar"
"What? Why?"
"Oh. You need to make your own content"
How does this follow?
Are you saying somebody from the BW community needs to volunteer to make a new sidebar that puts the BW content back?
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I really like the new sidebar, nice job!
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On August 24 2011 21:43 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant. On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW. What the hell are you talking about? I thought the majority of staff were volunteers? Are you guys getting paid to do SC2 stuff only and that's why nobody has time for BW? If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful. I think his point is that the positions are open. If you want more BW content, help produce it. Liquipedia is a perfect example, since the explicit design of wikis is such that you don't need to be staff to operate them. I think you're seeing an imaginary divide between staff and community. You could just as easily be the next person to take up slack off of [Antoine]'s shoulders, or write a new TLFE or a weekly roundup. "Hire me and then I'll do it" is not the attitude TL.net has ever had, I don't think.
But I don't have the power to edit the TLPD or the calendar, the two things I care most about. I know I can edit Liquipedia or write articles and submit as TLFE, but my writing is crap and I don't know enough about strategy for it to be useful.
Asking to be hired is not what I'm getting at. I'm asking you to ask us to volunteer (in an official capacity) because otherwise we'll surely just keep being little whiny bitches and assume somebody else will do it. Telling us to just do something, anything, like you seem to be doing, won't work for very long and it'll get very confusing.
I suppose you'll be able to find somebody for the calendar soon enough though, based on submissions but from where I'm standing, I won't submit anything to the calendar because I assume somebody else will do it and I don't want to do the work unnecessarily. If you understand what I mean. Conscious bystander effect? 
You ask for volunteers for translators and news writers, so why not the BW Calendar or the BW TLPD?
Edit: Just so that we're clear, I don't feel that BW content is lacking, other than in the calendar and some slightly prompter TLPD updating. People have been complaining about the calendar not being updated for months now and that's why I focus on that now.
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The more I look at the left sidebar, the less I like the bottom sections.
The replay section is just looking for the axe (or at least move it to the right and include SC2 replays to salvage it or something), but the plain links below look really bad and out of place now. Is there a technical reason to include them like this? I can't think of one.
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Whoa, I wake up in the morning and find THIS? Didn't read the whole thread, but in terms of the first few posts, I didn't quite understand. Where exactly have the power ranks been relocated to?
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United States11390 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:54 _Status wrote:
Whoa, I wake up in the morning and find THIS? Didn't read the whole thread, but in terms of the first few posts, I didn't quite understand. Where exactly have the power ranks been relocated to?
http://www.teamliquid.net/powerrank/
Under features.
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On August 24 2011 21:15 ]343[ wrote:What... at least put it at the bottom, below the poll if you have to. It won't be taking up much space (or bandwidth--it's text) if it's down there. TL without the power rank (or TLFE for that matter) on the sidebar is just... ... saddening. (And if you're trying to save space, why is the TSL forum still there when there's no TSL?) Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:
If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful.
I, for one, am tired of never seeing BW events in the calendar till the day before and I'm tired of having to wait up to 12-18 hours before seeing liquipedia updated because afaik only one person is working on those things right now, Antoine? I saw the "submit your event" thread by Chill but that is a really stupid way around the problem, imao, that will likely result in massive duplicate submissions and extra work. Just hire people to add these events from the BW community and most of the whining will likely disappear. hi, we exist, sort of. But the few of us "holding the line," so to speak (dedicated to BW mostly)---HawaiianPig/Waxangel/riptide/Xxio are half and half---are flamewheel, swanized, Kiante, nbaker, contagi0n, Kwark, mustaju, tree.hugger, harem, Ver when we can get his godly help, and me (and I've been lazy as hell recently with the MSL in limbo and no Chinese articles to translate. Oh shit DES has Chinese now jk). Plus there are the "community contributers" to our news pieces: TTT, lightwip, and lots of others. Then there are translators like infinitestory/white_horse/spica/smix/opticalshot/kyuukyuu/so many others I can't remember; OP creators/LR-ers (zona is leaving us... ); streamers (GTR, nanashin, etc. Only a year and a half ago there were like 5 streams at once @_@); and last but not least, graphics from HP/disciple/silversky. Of these, I guess there aren't that many "higher-ups" anymore (reds): only Wax/Riptide/disciple still do BW, and they do sc2 stuff too. Among blues, there are the new ones, HP and flamewheel. The community is still doing awesome things for BW, but the community itself is shrinking. And I guess BW staff "representation" is decreasing, though the large majority of staff still enjoy watching /following BW, at least occasionally. So... if you'd like to, please step up and help us with coverage and LR threads and streaming and translation and whatever else you think you can help with. apologies if my information is only 90% accurate
Haha, I was mostly referring to the TLPD and the calendar. I'm not sure who can edit those things but it seems to be the same 2-3 people for the TLPD and the calender never seems to be updated till it's almost too late.
I love all the articles but we can do better with the TLPD and calendar <3
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On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:
So far as a customisable TL goes, that's one of our goals. As usual its moving at a slow pace but we do realise there aren't very many other options to keep all of our users happy. Things like the customisable calendar are things we'd like to have but the calendar code is pretty crappy from what I understand and requires a major overhaul to make happen. So far as the recent results go, we'd like to move to a liquipedia oriented system - and hence for BW we'd need the pages up to date (afaik the jinair one is a week out?). Once we're satisfied with it I'm sure R1CH will add it. Also, there is still a strong BW contingent within the staff and they do voice the concerns of the BW community within discussions.
I don't know anything about how the calendar code is right now, but I was under the impression all the events were in a database, and they were picked using a SQL request (or equivalent), then added to the calendar one by one which looks like a complicated javascript gibberish.
Can't we just add a column to this table that is 0 if the event is a BW event, 1 if the event is an SC2 event, and replace the SQL request (or equivalent) by 3 requests (for every possible combinations of BW, SC2 and BW+SC2)?
At least that's how I would do it... but well maybe that structure just isn't there...
The default TLPD search menu should also similarly take 15 minutes to code max by adding a new column in the users table, a new form in our profile and the SQL requests (or equivalent) that go with it.
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On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW.
Click the Featured News thread, how many of the people actually contributing to all this SC2 content aren't former staff who actually used to do things from BW? The vast majority of things are, what, Waxangel, Heyoka, Hot_Bid? Nazgul for team related stuff, though he hadn't been part of the news section of BW for awhile so that's nothing but a gain. For every new face I see on the SC2 side of the news, I can probably name a new BW contributor -- the difference is that we don't have any of the admin foundation that was the main part of what made BW coverage on this site so great. It's not really fair to go, "Sorry, SC2 demands more attention, deal with it yourselves," when, by your account, the staff still IS ourselves, and still likes BW, they just don't contribute to it either despite actually being TL staff who like BW.
Thank goodness we have Hpig, even if he loves SKT.
On August 24 2011 21:34 Daigomi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant. On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW. If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful. That's the point. There are tons of volunteers for these things for SC2 but no-one volunteers for BW anymore. If someone came along and said that they'd like ensure that the Calender is updated for BW events every week, or write some BW final edits then the staff would love it. As Plexa says, most of us watch both SC2 and BW. However, no-one has done that, which is what's led to the dearth of content for BW. Being volunteers, every staff member chooses how they wish to contribute, and as it is, there just aren't people choosing to contribute to BW right now. What Chill is saying is that If the BW scene wants more effort put into the BW scene, then they need to volunteer to put that effort in. That's how everything is done on TL.
Hey, you, I will update the calendar the SECOND there is a BW event. I just thought editing the calendar was some upper admin access stuff.
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South Africa4316 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:12 Lachrymose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 21:34 Daigomi wrote:On August 24 2011 21:13 kuroshiroi wrote:On August 24 2011 18:55 Plexa wrote:EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant. On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote:
BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out. Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW. If that's the case, hire some unpaid volunteers to focus exclusively on BW. I'm sure there are a bunch of people who'd be willing. Make a thread/news/whatever, asking for these volunteers, hire them and then the problem of lack of staff that cares about BW has been solved. The bystander effect is extremely powerful. That's the point. There are tons of volunteers for these things for SC2 but no-one volunteers for BW anymore. If someone came along and said that they'd like ensure that the Calender is updated for BW events every week, or write some BW final edits then the staff would love it. As Plexa says, most of us watch both SC2 and BW. However, no-one has done that, which is what's led to the dearth of content for BW. Being volunteers, every staff member chooses how they wish to contribute, and as it is, there just aren't people choosing to contribute to BW right now. What Chill is saying is that If the BW scene wants more effort put into the BW scene, then they need to volunteer to put that effort in. That's how everything is done on TL. But this doesn't make any sense! We had (have) a PR and we had (have) R&S threads but they were defeatured. We're not asking you to make us more content! We're asking you to leave the content we already make alone! Just look at the new SC2 content in the sidebar. It's TLPD SC2 Elo. The TLPD BW Elo is kept up to date and yet that is not featured! (So the difference here is not content production like you try to make it sound) I don't understand how you're trying to turn this thread into some strange rationale that the BW is no longer produced when that is absoutely not what has happened here. "We're moving your content off the sidebar" "What? Why?" "Oh. You need to make your own content" How does this follow? Are you saying somebody from the BW community needs to volunteer to make a new sidebar that puts the BW content back?
I can see where your confusion comes from, so let me see if I can make it more obvious.
Firstly, things got moved from the sidebar because they were static. That has little to do with the user contribution, although TLFE's would have stayed there if more got written (not that we're blaming anyone, it's just the staff didn't have time which led to the TLFE's becoming static and hence moved).
The PR is a of static information. It's nice information, but it doesn't move, it doesn't change (except for once a month). The new list we have up is more dynamic, since ELO's change constantly. That doesn't mean the names will change constantly, but they will constantly be updated. If we had a choice, we would have had both SC2 and BW rankings up there. However, given that it's not been coded yet (to show both), we had to make a choice between displaying the SC2 rankings and BW rankings in the mean time. Unfortunately for BW, we had to choose the option that would be useful to most members. This should only be temporary though. I assume you guys are fine with that. As far as I can tell, you're not this upset because the BW rankings can't be seen for a short while?
The PR has also not been removed, it's become a news feature. I'll be honest with you, I still watch a fair amount of BW but I haven't looked at the PR in months. On the other hand, I read the SC2 Tournament Roundup every time it gets posted. The PR moving to the front page might actually get it more discussion and exposure than it did on the sidebar. The only difference will be it won't be taking up screen space permanently. If we get the ELO rankings added for BW as well, then you will have both the PR and the ELO rankings.
The R&S threads I can't comment on, but I know there's been a drive to replace R&S threads with liquipedia pages. I assume the BW section doesn't have the same summary pages yet, which is something user contribution will help with. If those pages exist, I can promise you they will be featured in the same way. Perhaps since there's only really two current BW tournaments remaining (OSL and PL), they might get direct links there. As I said though, the sidebars are still a work in progress and we will be adding things to it. Once again, I assume the BW fans aren't this angry because the links aren't there yet.
The comments regarding the user contribution wasn't specifically aimed at the sidebar. The things that got removed from the sidebar got removed due to being static, nothing more or less. The user contribution thing was aimed more at comments complaining about the lack of content aimed at BW fans and the calender being too SC2 focused. Our point was that the only reason this site seems to be focusing on SC2 is because SC2 has more community contributions (no doubt due to it being a considerably larger community). The only two "SC2-exclusive" features on TL at the moment, as far as I can tell, are the TLPD Elo display and the liquipedia links to SC2. However, as we've said, these are works in progress and will hopefully be updated soon.
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Not sure how this got to "being unhappy with BW related content". I am very happy with BW content. I don't think theres ever been times with more BW content then the last couple years.
Some of us are just upset at the removal of BW from the side bar. Power rank was replaced. The was a BW ranking, that ranking is gone and there is now an SC2 rank. Thats replacement.
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Didnt want to start a new topic, TL has never done so, so it might be because new design.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Gvetd.jpg)
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EPT
