On August 24 2011 16:31 eXeRicH wrote: A monthly/every 2 weeks/i dont know ''Powerranking''-show would also be an idea for Day[9]. It would make new people interested in the proscene and give the casual follower a good overview. He keeps track of everything anyways. :D
i don't know about day[9] doing that. if you're talking about a korean one, then meh, he could do, but i don't care about that. if you're talking about an international one, then definitely not, it'd have to be done by khaldor or some other known european. i always get the feeling from watching things like state of the game that americans have no clue about the european scene, and besides, it's easier to slot in both the americans that might actually contend for such a power rank than have someone in america try to work out who stephano is and make some bad argument for why idra is still anywhere near the best foreigner
On August 24 2011 18:01 moopie wrote: But now you can't even see the comment count on it to see if someone posted in there since the last time you checked. Will severely hamper if not kill discussion in it. It will become a ghost of its former self.
My posts -> latest replies. The beauty of this is that it not only works for the PR, but also for everything else you have posted in. That's how I always check for recent activity.
Other than that some people really need to relax a bit, there is no giant conspiracy from TL to get rid of SC or anything remotely like it.
At any rate, I personally don't mind the PR not being in the sidebar anymore, it really was too static. Although it being under Features/PR might not be ideal, not sure on what the best way would be. A lot of things are a bit hidden, simple because there are so many, so it's hard to put everything in plain sight. (Like the idea of having news for new PRs each time too)
Customizable defaults for TLPD and Liquipedia are definitely something I would like to see though. There are still some things being tuned, but I don't know if anyone is working on this in particular. Easier access to BW R&S is something I'd like to see also.
TSLs are the biggest thing TL has ever done, bringing the TSL button into this discussion is pointless.
On August 24 2011 18:07 Docmedical wrote: Why can't we customize our homepage? So we can move the BW related stuff to the front page on our account, and remove all the SC2 stuff. The SC2 fans can do the opposite.
On August 24 2011 13:53 Chairman Ray wrote: What's the ranking under TLPD?
TLPD ranking based off of ELO for international/korea in SC2
On August 24 2011 13:53 TwoToneTerran wrote: Ah, so it'll get 2 days of being a link on the left sidebar then disappear? Oh well, I guess I kind of saw this transition slowly coming but atleast it's not totally gone.
It's not really a transition, its just a matter of removing as much static content from the right as possible and replacing it with useful tools and links. I guess the exception is the SC2 ranking that is there atm, but don't read into this as SC2 ranking replacing SC1 ranking - we've been looking for a way to fit in the SC2 ranking for a while now, and it doesn't have any attached discussion threads.
Don't do this. I understand you had to transition out of BW eventually and while it does make me bitter it's fine. But you're Team Liquid, don't sit there and run PR on it like you're Blizzard or something, at least give us that much respect.
The TL staff has always treated its users with tons of respect and has never bullshitted, even with topics way more controversial than this. Plexa is the one that should get at least that much respect.
What Plexa said is exactly what happened. We are busy taking as much static content out of the sidebars as possible. There's no reason to have something that never changes be on display permanently. Both Powerrank and TLFE's are static. The Powerrank changes once a month, the TLFE's change even less. As you have noted, removing these things meant that there was a lot of free space available on the right side. We filled this space up for now, but we're still working on the features to put there. Much of what is there already will change as well (such as adding a BW ranking as well), and some things might still be removed.
It's understandable that you guys are upset about those features getting moved. There is no insidious plan to kill BW. 95% of the current staff came from the BW scene, and has invested a ton into the BW scene. However, the TL staff will continually work to try to improve the website and make it more user-friendly. Occasionally this will affect BW fans negatively in a small way (such as having a feature be moved one click further away). It's unfortunate when that happens, but we hope the features we add will make up for that.
Despite what some of you may think, as carnac said there are no conspiracies to wipe BW off of the face of the earth. Let's look at TLFE for instance, around 5-6 months ago it was brought to my attention that we hadn't had a new FE in months and that the lack of activity in the section made it irrelevant. I protested and said well me and heyoka have some great ideas for TLFEs (SC2 ones mind you) and that we shouldn't remove it from the right sidebar just yet. Obviously in the intermediate time period nothing got written for various reasons - so we removed it. Nothing to do with the fact that there was primarily BW content since there was quite a strong desire to continue TLFE into SC2 - it just never happened because we kept getting swamped unfortunately. Should we write more TLFEs in the future, they'll be featured news items.
I see some of you have brought up the replays tab, and I'll be honest with you - we are discussing what exactly to do with that at the moment. There has been talk of moving it to the right. There's been talk of adding SC2 reps to it. It's all very much up in the air at the moment. It might be removed at some point, but that's unlikely any time in the near future.
So far as a customisable TL goes, that's one of our goals. As usual its moving at a slow pace but we do realise there aren't very many other options to keep all of our users happy. Things like the customisable calendar are things we'd like to have but the calendar code is pretty crappy from what I understand and requires a major overhaul to make happen. So far as the recent results go, we'd like to move to a liquipedia oriented system - and hence for BW we'd need the pages up to date (afaik the jinair one is a week out?). Once we're satisfied with it I'm sure R1CH will add it. Also, there is still a strong BW contingent within the staff and they do voice the concerns of the BW community within discussions.
No one is kicking BW in the balls here, although it might feel like it. I personally view these changes are growing pains - I'll miss PR from the side bar (as a former author, it holds a special place in my heart) but I know eventually we'll find a good way to balance things and hopefully get that implemented quickly.
EDIT: This is probably somewhat relevant.
On August 17 2011 02:29 Chill wrote: BW zealots are getting annoying here, frankly. Instead of looking at it like "The staff no longer care about BW but they should!" why don't you take the approach of "The staff no longer care about BW, we need some community members here to stand up and help support it."
I can't speak for all staff since there are tons who still watch and love BW. But they're all veterans of the site. They've put their time in updating BW for years and now that it's being dwarfed by SC2, it's hard to keep grinding out the effort.
So if some new people want to step up and help out, do it please. Stop whining about everything and help out.
Perhaps it's a bit blunt, but the message is very true. Over the years everything we've done has been built out of passion and dedication towards the game we love. With SC2 a lot of the staff are overburdened tending to their needs and are simply unable to dedicate any more time contributing towards the BW scene (but a lot of the staff still watch BW regularly). What would be ideal is if people came on board and contributed some awesome content. Sad that TLFE is essentially dead? Write something and send it to one of our editors if you think its TLFE standard. Want results on the sidebar? Make sure liquipedia is up to date and we can get it there. It's just a matter of sitting down and doing things for the game. I know its a lot of work and it's pretty different from being spoonfed like most of you are used to, but if you want TL to continue to have strong BW support then we really need people to step up and help us. We can barely cover SC2 let alone BW.
Despite what some of you may think, as carnac said there are no conspiracies to wipe BW off of the face of the earth. Let's look at TLFE for instance, around 5-6 months ago it was brought to my attention that we hadn't had a new FE in months and that the lack of activity in the section made it irrelevant. I protested and said well me and heyoka have some great ideas for TLFEs (SC2 ones mind you) and that we shouldn't remove it from the right sidebar just yet. Obviously in the intermediate time period nothing got written for various reasons - so we removed it. Nothing to do with the fact that there was primarily BW content since there was quite a strong desire to continue TLFE into SC2 - it just never happened because we kept getting swamped unfortunately. Should we write more TLFEs in the future, they'll be featured news items.
I see some of you have brought up the replays tab, and I'll be honest with you - we are discussing what exactly to do with that at the moment. There has been talk of moving it to the right. There's been talk of adding SC2 reps to it. It's all very much up in the air at the moment. It might be removed at some point, but that's unlikely any time in the near future.
So far as a customisable TL goes, that's one of our goals. As usual its moving at a slow pace but we do realise there aren't very many other options to keep all of our users happy. Things like the customisable calendar are things we'd like to have but the calendar code is pretty crappy from what I understand and requires a major overhaul to make happen. So far as the recent results go, we'd like to move to a liquipedia oriented system - and hence for BW we'd need the pages up to date (afaik the jinair one is a week out?). Once we're satisfied with it I'm sure R1CH will add it. Also, there is still a strong BW contingent within the staff and they do voice the concerns of the BW community within discussions.
No one is kicking BW in the balls here, although it might feel like it. I personally view these changes are growing pains - I'll miss PR from the side bar (as a former author, it holds a special place in my heart) but I know eventually we'll find a good way to balance things and hopefully get that implemented quickly.
When you say you need the pages up to date are you talking about a liquipedia page for JA OSL? or just the R&S thread to be up to date?
I like the idea of cleaning-up the side-bars and re-organizing a bit, and I agree with your reasoning: it's a monthly news feature, so shouldn't it be... well, a monthly News Feature? What DOES peeve me a little is the below, though.
<Cedstick> I'd honestly just see them replace Polls with Power Rank <Cedstick> The Polls column makes TL feel like a generic gamer or PHP Nuke site template <Cedstick> R1CH forgot to remove it after all these years or something
Polls are fun, yay! Everyone loves them! Except they're useless unless it's a question that's actually useful for your demographics and consensus.
Despite what some of you may think, as carnac said there are no conspiracies to wipe BW off of the face of the earth. Let's look at TLFE for instance, around 5-6 months ago it was brought to my attention that we hadn't had a new FE in months and that the lack of activity in the section made it irrelevant. I protested and said well me and heyoka have some great ideas for TLFEs (SC2 ones mind you) and that we shouldn't remove it from the right sidebar just yet. Obviously in the intermediate time period nothing got written for various reasons - so we removed it. Nothing to do with the fact that there was primarily BW content since there was quite a strong desire to continue TLFE into SC2 - it just never happened because we kept getting swamped unfortunately. Should we write more TLFEs in the future, they'll be featured news items.
I see some of you have brought up the replays tab, and I'll be honest with you - we are discussing what exactly to do with that at the moment. There has been talk of moving it to the right. There's been talk of adding SC2 reps to it. It's all very much up in the air at the moment. It might be removed at some point, but that's unlikely any time in the near future.
So far as a customisable TL goes, that's one of our goals. As usual its moving at a slow pace but we do realise there aren't very many other options to keep all of our users happy. Things like the customisable calendar are things we'd like to have but the calendar code is pretty crappy from what I understand and requires a major overhaul to make happen. So far as the recent results go, we'd like to move to a liquipedia oriented system - and hence for BW we'd need the pages up to date (afaik the jinair one is a week out?). Once we're satisfied with it I'm sure R1CH will add it. Also, there is still a strong BW contingent within the staff and they do voice the concerns of the BW community within discussions.
No one is kicking BW in the balls here, although it might feel like it. I personally view these changes are growing pains - I'll miss PR from the side bar (as a former author, it holds a special place in my heart) but I know eventually we'll find a good way to balance things and hopefully get that implemented quickly.
When you say you need the pages up to date are you talking about a liquipedia page for JA OSL? or just the R&S thread to be up to date?
The JA R&S is up to date, the liquipedia page is a week out last time I checked. But it might have changed since.
Regarding polls, a lot of staff really really don't like the poll feature. At the moment it feels like a necessary evil. I know personally I wouldn't be sad if we got rid of it or only made it visible on the front page.
The reasoning of it being a monthly feature is also silly, because although I used to read the whole power rank once a month, I was looking at it very very often to see who was hot that month.
It's not because you don't click on it that you don't look at it or use it since the main information is who is in it and at which place.
For someone who, doesn't follow the stage very closely (don't have time to watch all the games etc...), the power rank was probably the most useful thing on TL right side bar.
On August 24 2011 18:41 Carnac wrote: TSLs are the biggest thing TL has ever done, bringing the TSL button into this discussion is pointless.
I still think TLFEs are bigger, but hey that's just me
No dissing on TSLs, but I'd certainly like to see work hours compared between all TSLs and all of the TLFEs (would be nail biting close, I'm sure ^^). Besides, if there's one thing (out of MANY) TL should be most proud of and to show off to their new members, I'd choose TLFEs, regardless of their inactivity. When someone who has never been to TL comes and reads those masterpieces (or scroll through them more likely), they should get a pretty good idea what TL is all about - quality.
Maybe a sticky link topic to the power rank could be added to the BW forum to make the PR more accessible? just putting it under features is kinda inconvenient
Change is often met with criticism, even if it's a good change (and I'm often one of those critics) -- so I just wanted to say thanks to the TeamLiquid staff: the new sidebar looks great and it's totally understandable to remove static content and add functionality in its place. The power rank didn't need to be seen from literally every single page, nor did the Final Edits. The TSL button is a little out of place now IMO, but the reduction in threads viewable from it is a fair compromise, especially since you guys are so understandably proud of it. Good job with the new changes guys!
All of this is coming from a long-time broodwar fan, of course.
I agree with the fact that TLFE could be removed, as it really is static, however even though the PR rank changes every month, I used to click it more then once a month(frankly, more then once a day sometimes) because of the relevant discussion around it, I could easily see when someone posted another comment(from memory I knew how many comments were there) and I just clicked and read the latest comments in discussion. With the PR removed from the sidebar, I have to activly look for it under features, while that may sound lazy I am afraid that it will in fact kill the activity in the PR.
The PR is static, but the discussion around it is ever-going.
Wait, would it be possible for you to set your "main" game in your profile and have the stuff on the right depend on whether you chose BW/SC2? I believe ESEA does something like that and it seems like it'd be better all-around for this situation.
Have it default to sc2 if not changed obviously, as the majority of users are going to be sc2 users, but give the BW users the ability to change it to bw.
EPT
