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win8282
Korea (South)454 Posts
On December 11 2009 23:58 Nytefish wrote: Well you can make blue ranks with only lings. Maybe it's easy at d-,d leavel. At D+ (I'm talking korean D+, cause i rarely play foreigners) its almost impossible to win w/o trying very very hard. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:11 Sadist wrote: No. You are forgetting that protoss can run since they are signifnicantly more mobile and have fucking huge amounts of hit points. If I send a small group of tanks across the map to try to take out an expo or something you can easily intercept them and i cant run them and in term have to try to micro them to get the most out of them while you a click. Theres a ton of factors that make protoss macro MUCH simpler than terran macro. What are these tons of factors? Because so far, you've only provided the single argument that P macro is much easier because their micro is easier, which I've been proving as untrue. You're complaining about P units being mobile? Last time I checked, you guys had the fastest units in the game. Their cheap cost makes up for their fragile health too. But you see, Terrans don't send just a small group of tanks. Those tanks are either covered by the siege radius of your main army tanks or supported by vultures so they can't easily die like you said. Not to mention that you just don't play Terran with that guerilla warfare type of playstyle like you do with other races because you have a superior ground army unless you're using vults. Terran has fewer expos so he can protect them better. Hence your argument of few zealots and 1 goon taking out a Terran expo is ridiculous. Because Terran is so stationary and turtles more than other races IS the reason why they require less micro. On December 12 2009 00:11 Sadist wrote: Protoss can inherently waste way more units since they have more expansions than terran anyway so you dont NEED To micro as much. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Protoss needs more expansions because they need a higher supply (bigger) army, because 200/200 Toss army will die to upgraded 200/200 Terran army. This is because Terran ground army is superior. And because of that, Protoss needs to go out of his way to micro to use spells and flanking to brittle away T's army. Apparently those extra expansions for Protoss are there to make units to be wasted like you said lol. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4825 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:11 Sadist wrote: No. You are forgetting that protoss can run since they are signifnicantly more mobile and have fucking huge amounts of hit points. If I send a small group of tanks across the map to try to take out an expo or something you can easily intercept them and i cant run them and in turn have to try to micro them to get the most out of them while you a click. Protoss can inherently waste way more units since they have more expansions than terran anyway so you dont NEED To micro as much. Theres a ton of factors that make protoss macro MUCH simpler than terran macro. Positioning is what makes t micro so difficult vs protoss. Obviously if you are already set up as terran that isnt much shit to do. Defense almost always has the advantage in bw. That being said its MUCH more difficult to ATTACK as terran than protoss. 1 missed volley and your entire army can get fucking owned. Not another whiny Terran. You do your race a disservice. Every race has to jockey for position. As a vulture/tank Terran, you can spend a few seconds (or more, if you want extra security) making your position unassailable, or you can stay mobile and keep jockeying for position. Protoss does not have the former option; Zerg only has the former option in some (lurker-oriented) circumstances. If you don't like jockeying for position, play a turtle style. Your race has that option. | ||
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Sadist
United States7110 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:27 AzureEye wrote: What are these tons of factors? Because so far, you've only provided the single argument that P macro is much easier because their micro is easier, which I've been proving as untrue. You're complaining about P units being mobile? Last time I checked, you guys had the fastest units in the game. Their cheap cost makes up for their fragile health too. But you see, Terrans don't send just a small group of tanks. Those tanks are either covered by the siege radius of your main army tanks or supported by vultures so they can't easily die like you said. Not to mention that you just don't play Terran with that guerilla warfare type of playstyle like you do with other races because you have a superior ground army unless you're using vults. Terran has fewer expos so he can protect them better. Hence your argument of few zealots and 1 goon taking out a Terran expo is ridiculous. Because Terran is so stationary and turtles more than other races IS the reason why they require less micro. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Protoss needs more expansions because they need a higher supply (bigger) army, because 200/200 Toss army will die to upgraded 200/200 Terran army. This is because Terran ground army is superior. And because of that, Protoss needs to go out of his way to micro to use spells and flanking to brittle away T's army. Apparently those extra expansions for Protoss are there to make units to be wasted like you said lol. The units should be wasted what the fuck are you talking about. You whittle down the terran army. You can waste units when you have a bigger eco if it does its damage which is distracting the terran and fucking up their economy. Terran isnt stationary at all. You HAVE TO attack thats what is difficult about playing terran. If you sit back you can get raped tons of ways. Sure if you get a lead you can sit back a bit but even then that can kill you because it allows the other player to get back into the game. You really have no clue what you are talking about. Protoss has the easiest macro in the game. All their ground units come from the same building and only cost 150 and you can use 1 probe to make all of them. All of this factors in to making the macro significantly easier. Are you really trying to argue that small armies of terran are not < Protoss armies? With no micro? If neither side micros or has the time to micro perfectly terran units fucking blow ass. Vultures are fragile as hell and you didnt address what I said about tanks. An out of position terran army is essentially worthless and that happens regularly when you are sending shit to places late game trying to damage the protoss. The Toss army is significantly more mobile and therefore can intercept these small forces much easier. How about you try playing terran once your damn life | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:11 Sadist wrote: Positioning is what makes t micro so difficult vs protoss. Obviously if you are already set up as terran that isnt much shit to do. Defense almost always has the advantage in bw. That being said its MUCH more difficult to ATTACK as terran than protoss. 1 missed volley and your entire army can get fucking owned. Thats why T plays defensively verse Toss. And as you said, defense = advantage. Positioning also works for both ways. For example, if Protoss army charges in a straight line toward T army, it will get raped. Toss players need to position his army so that zealots move in the front, and the goons are spread out in an arc to achieve maximum offense as well as reduce Tank splash damage. They also need to make sure HTs get within range to storm before goons are all melted, but you can't make them go too far ahead because they need other units to take hits for them. Shuttles need to avoid turret area as well. That being said, Protoss positioning is just as tricky. You never 1a2a3a into T army like a retard. So do you have any more arguments that I can debunk? | ||
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konadora
Singapore66065 Posts
but I have to admit, those were pretty sexy storms. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:35 Sadist wrote: You really have no clue what you are talking about. Protoss has the easiest macro in the game. All their ground units come from the same building and only cost 150 and you can use 1 probe to make all of them. All of this factors in to making the macro significantly easier. Are you really trying to argue that small armies of terran are not < Protoss armies? With no micro? If neither side micros or has the time to micro perfectly terran units fucking blow ass. Vultures are fragile as hell and you didnt address what I said about tanks. An out of position terran army is essentially worthless and that happens regularly when you are sending shit to places late game trying to damage the protoss. The Toss army is significantly more mobile and therefore can intercept these small forces much easier. How about you try playing terran once your damn life Here comes the Terran bad manner coming out of every typical T player again. First of all, Gateway cost has nothing to do with the difficulty of macro. Yes 1 probe can make all the buildings but Toss has more buildings to make compared to Terran. Yes, all our ground units come from the same building. So what? Doesn't Factory provide the same function as well for TvP? Or were you implying the usage of marine and medics using Barracks in TvP that happens like never or the FD stage where its very early game? Smaller Terran army, correctly sieged and mined (no further micro) versus. a slightly bigger Toss army that just 1a2a3a? I think the T army will win in this situation. The goons will run in together with the mines to get owned and there won't be any storms or flanking. I already addressed that Vulture's fragileness is made up by its extreme cost efficiency. It is because Toss army is more mobile that it requires more micro. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17719 Posts
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:49 Ilikestarcraft wrote: dont you guys ever get tired arguing about the same thing I'm surprised as well. You should see how many Terrans whine about Protoss ez mode everyday here on TL. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:50 AzureEye wrote: I'm surprised as well. You should see how many Terrans whine about Protoss ez mode everyday here on TL. That's the noob terrans | ||
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Storchen
Sweden4385 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:49 Ilikestarcraft wrote: dont you guys ever get tired arguing about the same thing dont you ever get tired of posting one liners? | ||
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inertinept
Bangladesh1195 Posts
shit thread. | ||
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Kyo Yuy
United States1286 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:35 AzureEye wrote: Thats why T plays defensively verse Toss. And as you said, defense = advantage. Positioning also works for both ways. For example, if Protoss army charges in a straight line toward T army, it will get raped. Toss players need to position his army so that zealots move in the front, and the goons are spread out in an arc to achieve maximum offense as well as reduce Tank splash damage. They also need to make sure HTs get within range to storm before goons are all melted, but you can't make them go too far ahead because they need other units to take hits for them. Shuttles need to avoid turret area as well. It's a lot harder for Terrans to expand than Protoss because of the mobility of the ENTIRE Protoss army. Terran vultures are mobile, but tanks are not, and vultures alone cannot defend an expansion. On the other hand the entire Protoss army is mobile.The Protoss response to a 3base turtling Terran is to expand and take the whole map, tech to arbiters and then exploit the Terran ball's lack of mobility to attack where the Terran is most vulnerable. Oystein demonstrates this in one of his older FPVODs: + Show Spoiler + A similar strategy was used by Bisu in his game vs. Mind in Proleague on Tornado. Mind tried to bait Bisu into attacking his bases by heavily turreting and turtling, and Bisu responds by taking a TON of bases and then spamming Recalls until Mind is mined out. You can see in Bisu's first Recall on that game, Mind has to move his entire army out of position to defend against the attack. He loses a few units but wins the battle any way. Bisu simply replenishes his army and then recalls again, repeating the process until Mind is starved out. Balance in PvT largely depends on the maps. Maps that are extremely large and have wide open areas, like Andromeda, naturally favor Protoss in this matchup because it gives them many options to flank and ample time to delay the Terran push while expanding to secure an advantage. That is why cross positions in PvT typically favors Protoss. On the other hand, Terran benefits from either an easily accesible/defendable third base and narrow passageways. A short rush distance also makes the game easier for Terran. But most of this is theorycrafting any way. History has shown that the matchups are T>Z>P>T and this hasn't really changed. The map pool can affect statistics slightly with each season but the overall trend shows that this is how the matchups pan out. Edit: I'd like to add my personal opinion on why Protoss is so hard at the progamer level. While there are probably a number of factors, I think one word says it better than many others: Dragoon. Seriously, even Protoss anti fans will admit that Dragoons are the dumbest unit in the game. They bug out a lot, they're huge and clunky, and even if you tell them to move back they sometimes decide to move forward any way. Yet these units are a necessity in every matchup, and when every player has amazing micro, it becomes a pain in the ass trying to control a bunch of retarded drunk spiders that shoot when they feel like it. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66065 Posts
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
On December 12 2009 01:23 konadora wrote: Seeing this thread going down soon.. Seeing what happened to this thread over night gives me a warm feeling inside. :D And come on give me a little more credit... as much as Etter inflates his skill level he's probably C+ ish? or so I say so I can say I beat a C+ player PvZ hah! | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On December 12 2009 00:35 Sadist wrote: The units should be wasted what the fuck are you talking about. You whittle down the terran army. You can waste units when you have a bigger eco if it does its damage which is distracting the terran and fucking up their economy. Terran isnt stationary at all. You HAVE TO attack thats what is difficult about playing terran. If you sit back you can get raped tons of ways. Sure if you get a lead you can sit back a bit but even then that can kill you because it allows the other player to get back into the game. You really have no clue what you are talking about. Protoss has the easiest macro in the game. All their ground units come from the same building and only cost 150 and you can use 1 probe to make all of them. All of this factors in to making the macro significantly easier. Are you really trying to argue that small armies of terran are not < Protoss armies? With no micro? If neither side micros or has the time to micro perfectly terran units fucking blow ass. Vultures are fragile as hell and you didnt address what I said about tanks. An out of position terran army is essentially worthless and that happens regularly when you are sending shit to places late game trying to damage the protoss. The Toss army is significantly more mobile and therefore can intercept these small forces much easier. How about you try playing terran once your damn life Rofl, why is a player of your caliber even arguing with this protoss troll? Obviously you aren't going to convince him of anything, let him live in his own deluded little world where P is the hardest race, because he got owned once by 2 fact pure vultures or something. I bet that kid hasn't even played starcraft in the past month. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17719 Posts
On December 12 2009 01:05 Storchen wrote: dont you ever get tired of posting one liners? nope | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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mrmin123
Korea (South)2971 Posts
On December 12 2009 03:04 Ilikestarcraft wrote: nope But z is etter's worst race. shhh | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17719 Posts
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