US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4419
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
DarkPlasmaBall
United States42933 Posts
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oBlade
Korea (South)4781 Posts
On September 28 2024 21:54 brian wrote: given there are an estimated 11-12 million illegal immigrants in the states total, a figure i’m sure you know given all your recent research on the topic, you might consider for a moment that you are misreading your statistic if you think 7 million of them are known criminals. 1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals. | ||
brian
United States9562 Posts
On September 28 2024 22:08 oBlade wrote: 1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals. and you understand that the non detained docket is not a list of criminals, yes? it is that 660,000 number you’re intending to use here. not 7 million. yea? a 9 percent rate of people with a criminal record (these are not convictions) is low (if we assume there are only 7 million, which there are not) compared to the rate of criminal records in our citizen population. it is important to make a distinction here that having a criminal record actually is NOT indicative of being convicted. i had conflated these two on my first attempt here too, so clarifying for us all. ill leave that math to you should you be interested https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/directlyimpacted2022.html#:~:text=An estimated 19 million people,who have been arrested for | ||
BlackJack
United States9731 Posts
On September 28 2024 21:31 Sadist wrote: Im just saying the devils in the details. Crime going up and then blaming immigrants with no Pareto chart of whats actually happening is not cool Fair enough. How about the example I posted from my locality, the SFChronicle's expose that showed the majority of San Francisco's fentanyl dealers all come from the same small collection of villages in Honduras, where they use their drug money to build mansions in their hometown and emblazon the gates to their homes with the logos of SF sports teams? San Francisco Mayor London Breed was called xenophobic and racist for saying last fall that “a lot” of the dealers are Honduran. She later apologized, saying it wasn’t her intention to single out one community or place the blame solely on them. Got her. That'll teach her not to say something factually accurate. Why do you think all the headlines I share to the thread about the disastrous consequences of Biden's border come from New York, SF, Chicago. They are blue cities with black mayors. It's like kryptonite to the people looking for the white supremacist to call racist or xenophobic. Btw, as for your request for more detailed statistics, not everyone thinks this is a good idea: San Francisco Police Chief Bill Scott said there is no value in studying the demographics of potential offenders. “We do not consider race or nationality in how we police,” he said. “We focus on behavior. If we see someone selling drugs, we’re going to arrest them.” One of the drug dealers the Chronicle interviewed said he was arrested and deported 9 times over. But who's keeping count? Not the SFPD, apparently. | ||
oBlade
Korea (South)4781 Posts
On September 28 2024 22:13 brian wrote: and you understand that the non detained docket is not a list of criminals, yes? it is that 660,000 number you’re intending to use here. not 7 million. yea? a 9 percent rate of people with a criminal record (these are not convictions) is low (if we assume there are only 7 million, which there are not) compared to the rate of criminal records in our citizen population. it is important to make a distinction here that having a criminal record actually is NOT indicative of being convicted. i had conflated these two on my first attempt here too, so clarifying for us all. ill leave that math to you should you be interested https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/directlyimpacted2022.html#:~:text=An estimated 19 million people,who have been arrested for Want to put them on the detained docket and send them home? | ||
brian
United States9562 Posts
On September 28 2024 22:54 oBlade wrote: Want to put them on the detained docket and send them home? i’m not against deporting convicted illegal immigrants but it seems to me the bigger problem is within the legal citizens don’t you think? this isn’t really an immigration problem, right? it’s a crime problem. some might suggest the ratio of immigrants with criminal records is artificially high (while still much lower, over all) as a result of the cops higher propensity to arrest them, too. but i don’t want to make too many different arguments to support what seems already clear. | ||
Sermokala
United States13585 Posts
We're not memory-holding events BJ you're just presenting them in bad faith. If you're trying to justify demonizing the many for the actions of a few you're justifying calling every conservative a nazi because some conservatives are nazi's. | ||
Uldridge
Belgium4325 Posts
On September 28 2024 20:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Thanks for the well thought out reply. I like to play the naive rube here from time to time (i.e. always because I am one), because I think it's interesting to understand why people are saying what they're saying. Engaging with them might get me there. Playing devil's advocate is a similar tactic. That's how you figure out true intentions and that's how you get good faith replies. Want to know if it's actually brown people they're afraid of? Don't call them racist right off the bat. Maybe many here are jaded from the same old patterns arising and therefor it's justified to call it like you see it, but the conservatives on this forum aren't the rednecks from the Rust Belt, they at least seem a bit more sophisticated. I remember xDaunt and the other guy who were the two pillars of conservatism (or like ultra right camo fascists) in the old thread and it was always so eerie how they conveyed their beliefs and how they got to their conclusions. It was weird. I still find it so so weird that people can see the same things and come to different conclusions, to the point of them being diametrically opposed. When the color is blue and someone says yellow, do you dismiss them for being stupid, or might there be something legit that should be addressed? I rather engage than spew ideology or counter for the sake of thinking the claims are ridiculous. Maybe I'm just a naive rube though, but getting to the crux of it all can dissolve more strongly held beliefs (I think) than we assume. | ||
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