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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
What's up with Trump's obsession with pretending that Harris never worked at McDonald's? I feel like there's a Streisand effect going on here: Trump could have ignored Harris's employment at McDonald's, but instead he repeatedly lies about it at rallies, which is causing news sources to further spread the word that Harris had a normal job as a student, and it creates an even more stark contrast between Trump's silver spoon and Harris's middle-class upbringing.
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On September 28 2024 21:54 brian wrote: given there are an estimated 11-12 million illegal immigrants in the states total, a figure i’m sure you know given all your recent research on the topic, you might consider for a moment that you are misreading your statistic if you think 7 million of them are known criminals.
1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals.
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On September 28 2024 22:08 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 21:54 brian wrote: given there are an estimated 11-12 million illegal immigrants in the states total, a figure i’m sure you know given all your recent research on the topic, you might consider for a moment that you are misreading your statistic if you think 7 million of them are known criminals.
1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals.
and you understand that the non detained docket is not a list of criminals, yes? it is that 660,000 number you’re intending to use here. not 7 million. yea?
a 9 percent rate of people with a criminal record (these are not convictions) is low (if we assume there are only 7 million, which there are not) compared to the rate of criminal records in our citizen population. it is important to make a distinction here that having a criminal record actually is NOT indicative of being convicted. i had conflated these two on my first attempt here too, so clarifying for us all.
ill leave that math to you should you be interested
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/directlyimpacted2022.html#:~:text=An estimated 19 million people,who have been arrested for
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On September 28 2024 21:31 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 20:55 BlackJack wrote:On September 28 2024 17:41 Sadist wrote:On September 28 2024 12:29 BlackJack wrote:On September 27 2024 19:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On September 27 2024 19:17 BlackJack wrote:On September 27 2024 12:54 NewSunshine wrote:On September 27 2024 11:17 Fleetfeet wrote:On September 27 2024 09:46 micronesia wrote:On September 27 2024 09:11 Fleetfeet wrote: [quote]
Do you believe that if Springfield had 20k swedes we'd hear cries of "They're eating our goldfish"?
People are obviously not fine with immigration of people not like them.
Do these count? Because I actually could see it... 100%. Swedes just out there being weird and eating gold fish. Shouting at each other in their bork de bork bork language. Lock ur fishbowls. I found this unreasonably funny. But yeah, talk about broad strokes, in any other context BJ would have a problem with the intellectual dishonesty involved in making too general a statement about this or that thing he feels like being contrarian about, but now that we're talking about illegal immigration, a subject where you have to bury your head in the sand to miss the latent racism, suddenly everyone is perfectly rational and unprejudiced, and nobody has an issue with people from different ethnicities and different walks of life, and all the problems they have with immigrants are all perfectly justified. Right-O! Obviously there are elements of xenophobia/racism/prejudice. The idea that everyone is perfectly rational and unprejudiced is a ridiculous strawman. The point is people want to argue that the reason people take issue with Biden's disastrous handling of the border is because they don't like black and brown people. It's as ridiculous as dismissing critics of Israel on anti-semitism. Obviously anti-semitism is something that exists and there are elements of that as well in foreign policy discussion but that's not the lion's share of what's happening. So what you get is people posting in the Palestine thread that the criticism of Israel is not about anti-semitism before racing over to the US politics thread to call people criticising immigration policy racists, with no sense of irony about it. The reason why people argue that is because the biggest headlines, created by many Republican leaders, are indeed nothing more than racist and xenophobic attacks on these immigrants (legal or illegal). Most conservative leaders are lying about what immigrants are doing to our country, simply labeling them as rapists and murderers and pet-stealers and pet-eaters and fundamentally evil human beings and being-smuggled-in-to-our-country-so-that-they-can-become-illegal-Democratic-voters. It's obvious fearmongering and hatemongering, and it's unjustified. If Trump and Vance and other Republicans had focused primarily on truthful concerns regarding negative impacts that immigrants may have on local economies (or whatever the real problems are), then the conversation would be about those. But those legitimate concerns rarely appear, because they aren't the usual sensationalist bullshit that goes viral with Trump and Fox News. In the middle of the discussion about Springfield I posted a graph showing that violent crime had more than doubled in Springfield since 2019 which was predictably ignored. There's lots of headlines about immigration and I doubt you're just getting the pet-eating ones. If you are you should broaden your reading material. Of course it's easiest to argue that Hatians aren't eating cats but it would be a refreshing change of pace if we went after each other's strongest arguments. If you want to agree that Biden's handling of the border is disastrous and also Trump is an old white racist asshole then I'm happy to do that as well. Theres no detail there in your springfield numbers. Did crime by haitians account for the doubling? What if it was crime AGAINST haitians? How do we know unless we have the details? How do we know it’s not the native Swedes committing grenade attacks against the immigrants? Im just saying the devils in the details. Crime going up and then blaming immigrants with no Pareto chart of whats actually happening is not cool
Fair enough.
How about the example I posted from my locality, the SFChronicle's expose that showed the majority of San Francisco's fentanyl dealers all come from the same small collection of villages in Honduras, where they use their drug money to build mansions in their hometown and emblazon the gates to their homes with the logos of SF sports teams?
San Francisco Mayor London Breed was called xenophobic and racist for saying last fall that “a lot” of the dealers are Honduran. She later apologized, saying it wasn’t her intention to single out one community or place the blame solely on them.
Got her. That'll teach her not to say something factually accurate.
Why do you think all the headlines I share to the thread about the disastrous consequences of Biden's border come from New York, SF, Chicago. They are blue cities with black mayors. It's like kryptonite to the people looking for the white supremacist to call racist or xenophobic.
Btw, as for your request for more detailed statistics, not everyone thinks this is a good idea:
San Francisco Police Chief Bill Scott said there is no value in studying the demographics of potential offenders. “We do not consider race or nationality in how we police,” he said. “We focus on behavior. If we see someone selling drugs, we’re going to arrest them.”
One of the drug dealers the Chronicle interviewed said he was arrested and deported 9 times over. But who's keeping count? Not the SFPD, apparently.
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On September 28 2024 22:13 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 22:08 oBlade wrote:On September 28 2024 21:54 brian wrote: given there are an estimated 11-12 million illegal immigrants in the states total, a figure i’m sure you know given all your recent research on the topic, you might consider for a moment that you are misreading your statistic if you think 7 million of them are known criminals.
1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals. and you understand that the non detained docket is not a list of criminals, yes? it is that 660,000 number you’re intending to use here. not 7 million. yea? a 9 percent rate of people with a criminal record (these are not convictions) is low (if we assume there are only 7 million, which there are not) compared to the rate of criminal records in our citizen population. it is important to make a distinction here that having a criminal record actually is NOT indicative of being convicted. i had conflated these two on my first attempt here too, so clarifying for us all. ill leave that math to you should you be interested https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/directlyimpacted2022.html#:~:text=An estimated 19 million people,who have been arrested for Want to put them on the detained docket and send them home?
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On September 28 2024 22:54 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2024 22:13 brian wrote:On September 28 2024 22:08 oBlade wrote:On September 28 2024 21:54 brian wrote: given there are an estimated 11-12 million illegal immigrants in the states total, a figure i’m sure you know given all your recent research on the topic, you might consider for a moment that you are misreading your statistic if you think 7 million of them are known criminals.
1) That's not a statistic, it's data. 2) There are 7 million illegal immigrants on the non-detained docket. There are more actual illegal immigrants, as you freely admit to. At least 660,000 of them have already been convicted of crimes other than against US immigration law (i.e. crossing a border outside a port of entry, overstaying a visa, overstaying visa-free travel on a passport, or using a false identity or intentionally destroying identity documents to gain access to a country under false pretenses) - meaning are criminals anywhere independent of the fact that they are in the US with no permission, which is itself not legal, meaning a crime, making them criminals. and you understand that the non detained docket is not a list of criminals, yes? it is that 660,000 number you’re intending to use here. not 7 million. yea? a 9 percent rate of people with a criminal record (these are not convictions) is low (if we assume there are only 7 million, which there are not) compared to the rate of criminal records in our citizen population. it is important to make a distinction here that having a criminal record actually is NOT indicative of being convicted. i had conflated these two on my first attempt here too, so clarifying for us all. ill leave that math to you should you be interested https://www.prisonpolicy.org/graphs/directlyimpacted2022.html#:~:text=An estimated 19 million people,who have been arrested for Want to put them on the detained docket and send them home?
i’m not against deporting convicted illegal immigrants but it seems to me the bigger problem is within the legal citizens don’t you think? this isn’t really an immigration problem, right? it’s a crime problem.
some might suggest the ratio of immigrants with criminal records is artificially high (while still much lower, over all) as a result of the cops higher propensity to arrest them, too. but i don’t want to make too many different arguments to support what seems already clear.
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