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On February 06 2024 02:03 Locutos wrote:
The best year for Maru was 2018. Which was also Serral's best year. Serral won 2 tourneys in which Maru played that year, GSL vs the World and WCS World title. Maru won none in which Serral played that year. Briefly prior to that, Maru won WESG.
They have very similar achievement in their peak, although i see Serral having a bit of an edge, for having 2 premier against 1 of Maru (in that time span) in which both played.
Aaaand Serral is in Maru's nemesis list in Aligulac, which contemplates their all time encounters...
This H2H comparison makes sense for me cus theyre are almost indisputable number 1 and 2 GOAT, after analyzing their all time achievements against all other players.
WESG did happen in 2018 but like most Serral fan you ignore that like it never happened. And like I said its also about win-loss in highest leverage moment. At this point, there is no point to bring up head-to-head when Maru is still one big title behind, thats how I feel.
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I also think it's hard to say Maru is not in his "peak" years when last Katowice he literally said he was in the best shape of his life and would never lose.
And his 2023 was not really different then his 2018: utterly dominant in GSL, outside, well, not
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On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already
Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that.
The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest).
If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4?
On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree
This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?
Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
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On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
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France12738 Posts
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
 Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed
2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years
Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
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United States1749 Posts
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
Hasn't any one noticed that there has been a maximum of 3 (and often 2) really good zergs in Korea for over a decade now? It's been some combination of Dark/soO/Rogue/ByuL/Soulkey/Solar(?) since like 2013.
2017 was the rare yeas with three good zerg, but in 2018 soO drops off, Solar drops off and you end up with Dark and Rogue as the two good zergs that year.
I think balance matters less than ever. Terran has two legitimate champion contenders in Maru and Clem. Zerg has Dark, Solar, Serral, Reynor. Protoss has two military returnees who, other than that really nice herO stretch, look like military returnees. Balance has an effect, but I'm gonna go with the infinite time gsl winner and clem or a bunch of zergs with like 6 or 7 combined WC's over the two Protoss who look extremely rusty at times.
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Maru and Serral's head to head is so misleading and such a small sample size. Everyone's saying it's based on 2018 forward but really their entire head to head is basically all in 21-23. As pointed out already they did not play at all in 2017 or earlier which would have favored Maru significantly. But even in 2018 they only played a grand total of 3 series one of which was on EU server with Maru in KR and one was a bo1 show match with no stakes. In 2019 they literally didn't play at all. In 2020 they only played 2 series one in Oct and one in Dec. Maru in that Dec was receiving shoulder treatment weekly and would end up skipping a tournament. Imo Serral was at least a little lucky that he didn't match with Maru more those 2.5 years or their current head to head would not look as it does right now. Serral's ZvT was not on the level of his ZvP and ZvZ in 2018 and 2019.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list?
Yeah agreed. For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru.
Direct H2H doesn’t mean much, it’s how you do versus the overall field. Your styles might just match up badly, or it’s made lopsided by one player playing most of the ties at their peak when the other isn’t, etc. Maybe as a tiebreaker all other things being equal!
But yeah, I think personally Maru has a good GOAT claim between being one of the best in the real peak era, and then absolutely undisputed top 3 and winning a lot from 2018 thru now. It’s a potent combo.
It’s not really tenable if one is picking and choosing though. It’s Maru’s (and even more so, Rogue’s) achievements post 2018 that bump them past guys like Zest, or Innovation, which for me is perfectly fine. But you can’t completely gate Serral out on account for the era, but put those two above their Korean peers based upon them pulling away via achievements from said era.
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United States1749 Posts
On February 06 2024 05:19 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Yeah agreed. For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru. Direct H2H doesn’t mean much, it’s how you do versus the overall field. Your styles might just match up badly, or it’s made lopsided by one player playing most of the ties at their peak when the other isn’t, etc. Maybe as a tiebreaker all other things being equal! But yeah, I think personally Maru has a good GOAT claim between being one of the best in the real peak era, and then absolutely undisputed top 3 and winning a lot from 2018 thru now. It’s a potent combo. It’s not really tenable if one is picking and choosing though. It’s Maru’s (and even more so, Rogue’s) achievements post 2018 that bump them past guys like Zest, or Innovation, which for me is perfectly fine. But you can’t completely gate Serral out on account for the era, but put those two above their Korean peers based upon them pulling away via achievements from said era.
While there is no direct correlation between having a lot of favorable head to head matches and your overall record against "the field", it's pretty obvious that the two are related in some way. Players like Maru, Rogue, Serral, Mvp, INnoVation, TY, Zest all have a lot of good head to head records and all ended up doing pretty well due to law of averages.
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On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player
My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time...
On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings
If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 06 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time... Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
There hasn’t really been all that much fluctuation for years now between the non-S tier Terrans and Zerg. They both can make runs and win tournaments and there doesn’t seem much of a discernible pattern to it. And both (generally) lose to those said same S tier players.
If the balance was shifting appreciably in either direction you’d expect to see periods of a whole cohort all posting good results in the matchup at the same time. So say Rag, DRG, Solar all consistently beating their rough equivalents, say Byun, Gumiho and Bunny, and starting to trade well with a Maru. Or the reverse and the Terran cohort doing so with a Serral or a Dark.
I don’t think we’ve really seen that. We haven’t had perfect balance of course but it’s been pretty consistent where that cohort of players from either race generally trade pretty evenly with their equivalents,and badly against the top, top dogs. Some have hot streaks some have slumps, but rarely is it the whole group at once.
With the caveat that even a relatively broken meta doesn’t always elevate everyone due to play style. See DRG being ‘Mr LBM’ didn’t get much of a bump from the BL/Infestor era. Or a player may just suck at one matchup so much that they can’t make hay in tournaments from a favourable meta.
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On February 06 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time... Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:On February 05 2024 20:46 Charoisaur wrote:
As I already said in another thread, using Serral's head to head record against Maru as proof he's the better player is imo very disingenous as Maru had already 7-8 years of his career behind him when Serral became relevant. After 8 years of fulltime-competition it's much more likely to burn out and become less motivated and Maru also had to deal with injuries etc, whereas Serral was able to spend all his peak years in the post-2017 era. Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best. That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._.
Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 06 2024 07:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time... On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._. Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
But Maru has been winning a hell of a lot, and to just arbitrarily name it, the ‘Serral era’ is fast approaching a span of 6 years. Hell Serral’s remained at the very top for a singular span longer than most in this ranking.
Most pros we all accept have dips, peak for Championships, dip back down, come back up (or don’t), I think we’re all pretty understanding that being motivated 100% for such a period is unrealistic. About the only person I can think of who’s wired like that is Cristiano Ronaldo, and I genuinely don’t think it’s a good thing.
And while he was picked up pretty much out the gate, Maru wasn’t a full-time 100% progamer out of the blocks, there was a degree of learning his trade, in a game that wasn’t really fleshed out. And Serral had to get good enough grinding on ladder to break to the level where he could even think about going pro in a game with a very established top order. I don’t know what the grind was like for either, but assume Maru took a year or so to really properly get going, and Serral probably needed at least a couple of years it starts to look more like 13 years versus 8, granted I’m assuming a lot :p
Anyway Maru doesn’t have to remain motivated 24/7, he just has to peak for the big moments, I think that’s broadly the expectation at this point for GOAT bonuses. And some good chances to do just that ahead, should be some good StarCraft to come.
But he can’t simultaneously move above the likes of Inno in these lists via longevity, but also when compared directly to Serral it’s a motivation factor and it’s unfair to draw the comparison. It’s partly why I try not to weigh longevity too highly because it’s very luck-dependent.
Maru has more excuses made for him than anyone in SC2’s glorious history, and hell sometimes they’re right, as perhaps in this instance. But just think what a player he could have been without persistent jet lag, a crippling fear of leather, Rickett’s and being personally cursed by Dionysus after defeating him in a game of Backgammon:
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On February 06 2024 07:13 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time... On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:31 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
Becoming less motivated is a pretty silly argument to use. We're discusing a GOAT list, being motivated is a pretty freaking important element. He just has to stay motivated if he want to be the best.
That's like saying Soulkey is better than Rogue but he just got tired of SC2. "Just stay more motivated" Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._. Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now.
Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either.
What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough?
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On February 06 2024 08:11 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 07:13 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
"Just stay more motivated"
Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time... On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:33 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
"Just stay more motivated"
Federer has a pretty terrible record against Djokovic in the last 5 years, I guess he's out of the Goat conversation Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._. Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now. Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either. What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough?
Sure I agree with you (although I think his 2013-15 results are more impressive than you give him credit for, due to how stacked that era is). My argument is not that Maru is definitely the Goat over Serral (I'd give him the edge but it's basically a toss up imo).
My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant.
Serral got lucky that the majority of his matches against Maru were during the timeframe where he had the edge.
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It's an interesting case study.
On February 06 2024 08:42 Charoisaur wrote:
My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant.
Everyone in this thread agrees on this point. Nobody defends the asinine notion that the GoaT status should be determined by individual head-to-head records between the contenders. And yet, every other commentator attacks this straw man.
Some pages back, I wrote that I consider head-to-head essentially the most important criterion, so far as it is applied to the whole of the top-tier field. And of course, the tacit assumption was that what counts are high-stakes matches in major or premier tournaments considered over a sufficiently significant period of time, not weekly cups, nor random low-stakes matches, nor temporary peaks (some other straw men attacked by some). Here is what I wrote:
On February 05 2024 08:15 Antithesis wrote:
Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms.
Here is how WombaT put a similar view:
On February 06 2024 05:19 WombaT wrote:
For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru.
Nobody is making the claim that Serral's individual record against Maru is of any particular relevance.
Furthermore, a good – and in the case of Serral, the best – overall head-to-head record against all other top-tier players, in major or permier tournaments, over an extended period of time, evidently equates to good results in terms of most other metrics discussed here, like tournament wins and consistency. Which, too, is reflected in Serral's factual results. Up to this point, nothing about this is really controversial.
Now, of course, it's perfectly fine to argue that achievements stretched over a longer period of time and across more formats, as accomplished by Maru, are more impressive than a higher and more consistent level of dominance over a shorter period of time. Personally, I do not agree with this, but it's a perfectly reasonable position.
But it's simply disingenuous to pretend that anyone is making the case for Serral on the grounds of his individual record against Maru.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 06 2024 08:42 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 08:11 Balnazza wrote:On February 06 2024 07:13 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
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Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time... On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:38 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Federer is a good few years older than Djokovic, and latterly had some pretty consistent injury issues in a very physical sport. But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._. Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now. Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either. What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough? Sure I agree with you (although I think his 2013-15 results are more impressive than you give him credit for, due to how stacked that era is). My argument is not that Maru is definitely the Goat over Serral (I'd give him the edge but it's basically a toss up imo). My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant. Serral got lucky that the majority of his matches against Maru were during the timeframe where he had the edge.
I’ll only concede the point if you also concede Maru was lucky to be placed to have a career spanning basically the entirety of pro SC2 :p
I dont think Balnazza is underrating his 2013-2015, least from my read. More that he was ‘one of the best’ rather than ‘the guy’. He was always hanging around as a top player, placing consistently and his subsequent Proleague record attests to that but say, an Inno or Zest were blowing him out of the water in terms of winning things consistently in HoTS, then subsequently early LoTV.
Well blowing out of the water is hyperbolic, but you get my point.
*Edit* it’s not even that hyperbolic. 2013, 2015 and then 2018 with WESG, which got him up to 3 Premiers. Quite a while, although there’s a lot of consistent top 4 finishes there. Then the rest of his 12 remaining titles all come from 2018 onwards.
Whereas someone like herO picked up 5 between 2013 thru 2015, including a Starleague himself. Inno has 4 from that same period, with 2 Starleagues. Etc
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On February 06 2024 10:05 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 08:42 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 08:11 Balnazza wrote:On February 06 2024 07:13 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 06:35 Balnazza wrote:On February 06 2024 03:32 Charoisaur wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol?Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Not sure how that's related in any way to my point? My point is that Mbappe outperforming Messi during the time they both played at PSG doesn't mean he's the all time greater player My dude, in their mid-twenties most (E)Sports-athletes reach their prime, not fall off. And it is not like other players aren't playing this game for 12 years straight either. There is just not an excuse for a claimed GOAT to "lose motivation" at this stage and time... On February 06 2024 04:24 Poopi wrote:On February 06 2024 03:19 Balnazza wrote:On February 05 2024 20:49 Poopi wrote:
On top of that, Serral rose to prominence when Zerg was the strongest race by far, if you are a top Zerg, it’s expected to have positive h2h records vs P/T players.
Since Serral wasn’t good enough to meet Maru in the earlier years, we couldn’t see how he fared in less favorable metas. On the other hand, Maru has been the last Terran / Terran savior / Terran hope many years already Serral won seven Premier titles in 2018 - one of them was a ZvZ (the fourth WCS win over Reynor). Out of 12 slots in the GSL Top 4 that year only two slots were occupied by Zerg (soO/Dark). No Zerg even made the GSL finals that year. You could equally make the case for that year that terran was broken and Maru won his three GSLs because of that. The only Zerg-performance that is a bit out of place that year was Scarlett winning a smaller IEM - with only two koreans present (sOs and Zest). If Zerg was so OP that year that it affected Serrals rise so much (and you claim this every thread, so it must be a very significant boost he got)...why did no other Zerg outperform? Why didn't RagnaroK win a GSL that year or atleast made Top 4? On February 05 2024 21:55 Charoisaur wrote:On February 05 2024 21:48 WombaT wrote:On February 05 2024 21:41 Charoisaur wrote:
[quote]
But the results are there and Federer did poorly. The rest is just imagination
Federer was approaching his 40s in a physically demanding sport. There’s only so much you can stretch the body to do ultimately. Maru and Serral are very close in age, in a much less physically demanding endeavour. It’s a stretch to compare Federer’s H2Hs slipping in his golden years to that dynamic. Hell that Federer was even running into Djokovic in tournaments at an age well beyond most pros had long, long retired is a testament to how good he was. Well, maybe it's even more obvious than the Maru-Serral case, but I don't think anyone can disagree that the circumstances of Maru and Serral facing each other, favored Serral, even if it's by a slight degree This is honestly a weird approach. So what, you can't make a Football GOAT-list because Pele didn't play in the last World Cup? And how can anyone claim Messi is the GOAT when he didn't even play in the 1958 World Cup? What's his excuse, being born 40 years later lol? Normally I would agree that the H2H isn't particularly helpful. But people claim that Serrals edge over Maru right now doesn't count because "Maru was in his prime earlier"...but even in his prime Maru wasn't the best. So why is he suddenly top of the list? Winnings/2018 almost all zergs over performed 2018 wasn’t the worst offender, it was around the same as late 2017 & hydra buff in terms of Zerg being strong, 2019 was the worst, then it kinda maintained around 2017-2018 level the following years Maru was the only Terran getting any success in 2018 though, it’s quite clear looking at the winnings If you look at the winnings by Top 10, I don't feel Zerg stands particularly out? Sure, by a larger margin Zerg earned the most (I mean...zerg also one two out of the biggest events). But by the 5th place Terran and Zerg are already equal again. Considering the persistent you have to point out how balance affected Serrals rise SO much, I would have expected something like "the 10th best Zerg wins as much as the 2nd best Terran". Not a maybe slightly misaligned, but overall completly normal spread ._. Holding against Maru that he didn't stay 100% motivated for 14 years so we could see his best version vs Serral's best version is pretty disingenous I think considering Serral hasn't done that either/didn't need to do that due to his shorter career. Do you really think keeping your 100% drive & competitive spirit for 6 years is as hard as it is to do that for 14 years? If in 8 years Serral is still just as dominant as he is now, then you can hold it against Maru that he didn't keep his 100% motivation for 14 years - not now. Of course it is hard and an achievement in itself to stay relevant for so long - but it is also easier to do that when you start so young, especially considering that Maru didn't have to deal with military service (yet). But it works in both ways: You can't hold it against Serral to have started out "late", especially when the reasons for it are mostly out of his hand anyway. These "What If"-scenarios can get out of hand pretty quickly, so I don't think that is in any shape or form helpful. You are basically replacing a non-helpful H2H with a theoretical H2H that doesn't work out either. What my point against Maru here is, is that even in his prime he wasn't "the one". Maru ramped up his trophy-cabinet in the same time-span as Serral, but didn't do is as well as him. If Maru "in his prime" (which I will just take from you and others, I personally don't agree with the whole idea) had won 3-5 GSLs I could see your point, but as I said before: You are basically saying just "being relevant, but never the best" for a long period of time is enough to qualify as the GOAT for you. It is a bit like the soO-case: Of course it is impressive how consistent he reached those (GSL) finals, but wouldn't you say to be 'the best GSL player ever' you at one point have to win the thing, too? And not just be "up there" long enough? Sure I agree with you (although I think his 2013-15 results are more impressive than you give him credit for, due to how stacked that era is). My argument is not that Maru is definitely the Goat over Serral (I'd give him the edge but it's basically a toss up imo). My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant. Serral got lucky that the majority of his matches against Maru were during the timeframe where he had the edge. I’ll only concede the point if you also concede Maru was lucky to be placed to have a career spanning basically the entirety of pro SC2 :p
Ofc that's also true
I dont think Balnazza is underrating his 2013-2015, least from my read. More that he was ‘one of the best’ rather than ‘the guy’. He was always hanging around as a top player, placing consistently and his subsequent Proleague record attests to that but say, an Inno or Zest were blowing him out of the water in terms of winning things consistently in HoTS, then subsequently early LoTV.
Well blowing out of the water is hyperbolic, but you get my point.
*Edit* it’s not even that hyperbolic. 2013, 2015 and then 2018 with WESG, which got him up to 3 Premiers. Quite a while, although there’s a lot of consistent top 4 finishes there. Then the rest of his 12 remaining titles all come from 2018 onwards.
Whereas someone like herO picked up 5 between 2013 thru 2015, including a Starleague himself. Inno has 4 from that same period, with 2 Starleagues. Etc
Yeah I never said he was the best during that era. I just think being one of the best and achieving what he did during that era is extremely impressive. Back then if you had a bad day in the ro32 you got eliminated right then and there, whereas nowadays if you have a bad day you still probably make it into the ro8 and then just need to win three more series to win the trophy.
It's hard to say exactly how much more a trophy from that era should count compared to one in todays era, but it definitely should count a lot more. Players like Rogue, Stats and TY played throughout that era without winning a single tournament!
That's my problem with Balnazza saying he "only" won 2 Starleagues during that era, as if it was a negative point
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On February 06 2024 09:37 Antithesis wrote:It's an interesting case study. Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 08:42 Charoisaur wrote:
My main disagreement is using the h2h from Maru vs Serral for anything conclusive, imo it's just not particularly relevant. Everyone in this thread agrees on this point. Nobody defends the asinine notion that the GoaT status should be determined by individual head-to-head records between the contenders. And yet, every other commentator attacks this straw man. Some pages back, I wrote that I consider head-to-head essentially the most important criterion, so far as it is applied to the whole of the top-tier field. And of course, the tacit assumption was that what counts are high-stakes matches in major or premier tournaments considered over a sufficiently significant period of time, not weekly cups, nor random low-stakes matches, nor temporary peaks (some other straw men attacked by some). Here is what I wrote: Show nested quote +On February 05 2024 08:15 Antithesis wrote:
Attempting to declare Maru the all-time GoaT, while simultaneously conceding that Serral is superior in terms of head-to-head record, not only to him, but also to the rest of all other top-tier players to me is a contradiction in terms. Here is how WombaT put a similar view: Show nested quote +On February 06 2024 05:19 WombaT wrote:
For me the H2H bolstering his claim for Serral isn’t his over Maru, it’s him having a winning record against basically everyone, including Maru. Nobody is making the claim that Serral's individual record against Maru is of any particular relevance. Furthermore, a good – and in the case of Serral, the best – overall head-to-head record against all other top-tier players, in major or permier tournaments, over an extended period of time, evidently equates to good results in terms of most other metrics discussed here, like tournament wins and consistency. Which, too, is reflected in Serral's factual results. Up to this point, nothing about this is really controversial. Now, of course, it's perfectly fine to argue that achievements stretched over a longer period of time and across more formats, as accomplished by Maru, are more impressive than a higher and more consistent level of dominance over a shorter period of time. Personally, I do not agree with this, but it's a perfectly reasonable position. But it's simply disingenuous to pretend that anyone is making the case for Serral on the grounds of his individual record against Maru.
The whole point about about individual record and/or head-to-head is that you only need to lose once and its over. And not all the matches/tournaments are created equally in term of legacy/GOAT consideration. Serral will look very impressive in the course of the year and winning 2-3 tournaments, but he might just have a bad day in ZvZ or facing Clem, ect. and he would be out of the biggest tournament in the year. Does that enhance his GOAT case over someone like Rogue, who lost out earlier in lots of tournament, but show up and win on the biggest stage?
Serral would beat Zest/Ragnarok/Solar 90% of the time they meet, but he got eliminated by them in the biggest tournament of the year, so does that help or hurt his legacy?
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EPT
