Tiny tweaks. Would you be in favor? - Page 8
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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Leonix
161 Posts
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asel
Germany1597 Posts
I'm not really a fan of this matchup so I definitly wouldn't mind a balance change which only affects zvz (e.g. Splash damage for Spore colonies against Bio Units). | ||
JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
When it comes to island maps:
Other abilities, units etc. can be very useful for example in Free For Alls potentially. For example Infested Terrans in ZvP, if a Zerg that faces both Terran and Protoss opponents manages to infest a Terran Command Center, he could use Infested Terrans, when combined with Dark Swarm, against massed Protoss armies or maybe heavily defended expansions defended by multiple Photon Cannons. One suggestion I have, which I'm unsure but hopeful about not messing up the balance or metagame of existing non-mirror matchups on regular non-island maps, is to make Goliaths take up twice as much room inside Dropships, Shuttles and Overlords, like most large units. This change would specifically make Goliath drops weaker, and from what I know, Goliath drops aren't central to most competitive 1v1 non-island map non-mirror metagame or strategies. The reason is that from what I've heard one of the major issues with TvP matchups on island maps is that Terran's Goliaths are so strong against Protoss. There could be other reasons but this is at least one. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On December 05 2020 01:48 JonttuTonttu wrote: One suggestion I have, which I'm unsure but hopeful about not messing up the balance or metagame of existing non-mirror matchups on regular non-island maps, is to make Goliaths take up twice as much room inside Dropships, Shuttles and Overlords, like most large units. This change would specifically make Goliath drops weaker, and from what I know, Goliath drops aren't central to most competitive 1v1 non-island map non-mirror metagame or strategies. The reason is that from what I've heard one of the major issues with TvP matchups on island maps is that Terran's Goliaths are so strong against Protoss. There could be other reasons but this is at least one. Unfortunately, unit size is inextricably linked to damage types. For example, Dragoons do explosive damage, meaning they do 100% damage vs. Large units, 75% vs. Medium units, 50% vs Small units. So, by making Goliaths bigger, you are giving a 33% damage boost to Dragoons against them. This would naturally affect Carrier play in regular 1v1s. This would potentially have an even greater impact on ZvT, as Hydralisks also do explosive damage, meaning that they will do 33% more damage against Goliaths, meaning that Hydra/Muta against mech gets a boost. So, yea, sadly it's not that simple and can't be adequately corrected by messing with armor or anything like that, either. Even more evidence that even seemingly innocuous changes suggested by people on these forums are often based on a lack of information/perspective ![]() | ||
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On December 05 2020 01:48 JonttuTonttu wrote: Well there is one way to make like half of the currently unused units, spells, upgrades and buildings viable, and that is by basing their buffs around a type of map rarely played competitively, which is island maps, and other gametypes such as Free For All (which has always been my favorite gametype). When it comes to island maps:
Other abilities, units etc. can be very useful for example in Free For Alls potentially. For example Infested Terrans in ZvP, if a Zerg that faces both Terran and Protoss opponents manages to infest a Terran Command Center, he could use Infested Terrans, when combined with Dark Swarm, against massed Protoss armies or maybe heavily defended expansions defended by multiple Photon Cannons. One suggestion I have, which I'm unsure but hopeful about not messing up the balance or metagame of existing non-mirror matchups on regular non-island maps, is to make Goliaths take up twice as much room inside Dropships, Shuttles and Overlords, like most large units. This change would specifically make Goliath drops weaker, and from what I know, Goliath drops aren't central to most competitive 1v1 non-island map non-mirror metagame or strategies. The reason is that from what I've heard one of the major issues with TvP matchups on island maps is that Terran's Goliaths are so strong against Protoss. There could be other reasons but this is at least one. Goliath drops are a staple of TvT right? | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On December 05 2020 02:25 Jealous wrote: Unfortunately, unit size is inextricably linked to damage types. For example, Dragoons do explosive damage, meaning they do 100% damage vs. Large units, 75% vs. Medium units, 50% vs Small units. So, by making Goliaths bigger, you are giving a 33% damage boost to Dragoons against them. This would naturally affect Carrier play in regular 1v1s. This would potentially have an even greater impact on ZvT, as Hydralisks also do explosive damage, meaning that they will do 33% more damage against Goliaths, meaning that Hydra/Muta against mech gets a boost. So, yea, sadly it's not that simple and can't be adequately corrected by messing with armor or anything like that, either. Even more evidence that even seemingly innocuous changes suggested by people on these forums are often based on a lack of information/perspective ![]() actually there are exceptions between unit sizes considered for damage compared to the size they are in dropships. for example zealots are small for damage but medium in dropships, goliaths are large for damage but medium in dropship etc. so yeah you could change the size for damage or size in dropship separately it's already irregular. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
On December 05 2020 22:14 ProMeTheus112 wrote: actually there are exceptions between unit sizes considered for damage compared to the size they are in dropships. for example zealots are small for damage but medium in dropships, goliaths are large for damage but medium in dropship etc. so yeah you could change the size for damage or size in dropship separately it's already irregular. :O My final point stands hahahaha you learn every day! Thanks! | ||
Beelzebub1
997 Posts
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Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On December 05 2020 02:25 Jealous wrote: Unfortunately, unit size is inextricably linked to damage types. For example, Dragoons do explosive damage, meaning they do 100% damage vs. Large units, 75% vs. Medium units, 50% vs Small units. So, by making Goliaths bigger, you are giving a 33% damage boost to Dragoons against them. This would naturally affect Carrier play in regular 1v1s. This would potentially have an even greater impact on ZvT, as Hydralisks also do explosive damage, meaning that they will do 33% more damage against Goliaths, meaning that Hydra/Muta against mech gets a boost. So, yea, sadly it's not that simple and can't be adequately corrected by messing with armor or anything like that, either. Even more evidence that even seemingly innocuous changes suggested by people on these forums are often based on a lack of information/perspective ![]() Who gives you these strange ideas? a unit's "damage type size" is independent of the space it takes up in a transport. Goliaths are large units, just like Tanks and Goons. | ||
Freakling
Germany1525 Posts
On December 06 2020 04:10 Beelzebub1 wrote: Yes, but only very very small changes, maybe even giving the scout an extra 0.5 ground range instead of 1.0, and who even knows how to make the Defiler meta, not too important imo but yea VERY small changes and only to the non meta units for sure. I don't think there such a thing as a .5 range in BW. | ||
JonttuTonttu
81 Posts
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