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Every article about masks states that the social distancing, washing hands and not touching the face are the most important thing. Then they get into whether they think masks are helpful or not. You have the importance backwards.
When you said that in your opinion they are valuable I didn't respond because that is fine statement, but the rest of your stuff is mainly confirmation bias driven drivel.
There are reasons why many medical professionals have been against masks, there are reasons why their are many that are for it. Your opinion is that they are good, and that is fine, but stop acting like your opinion is right, you don't have a medical back ground among many other reasons why you are not a reliable source of information.
We have to get everyone doing the top three things you can do to stop the spread of Covid-19 and worry about those because all the experts do actually agree that they work.
In order to slow infection rates, the WHO recommends stringent social distancing measures and frequent handwashing. Many countries, including the UK, US, France, Italy and India, have gone into “lockdown”, prohibiting all but essential travel and telling people to stay at home.
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/04/coronavirus-covid19-flu-influenza/
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I've noticed both IRL and online that the debate about masks focuses almost entirely on its effect or lack of it on the wearer, the idea of doing something to protect others from yourself rather than the other way around is quite alien in a "me me me" culture.
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On April 03 2020 04:15 Dan HH wrote: I've noticed both IRL and online that the debate about masks focuses almost entirely on its effect or lack of it on the wearer, the idea of doing something to protect others from yourself rather than the other way around is quite alien in a "me me me" culture. Exactly, the western framing (of public masks) is around how masks do or don't protect the wearer, whereas countries that understand gen pop masks know they are a matter of courtesy and responsibility to protect society from the wearer not the wearer from society.
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On April 03 2020 04:15 Dan HH wrote: I've noticed both IRL and online that the debate about masks focuses almost entirely on its effect or lack of it on the wearer, the idea of doing something to protect others from yourself rather than the other way around is quite alien in a "me me me" culture.
Highlights the collectivist/individualist difference in east and west.
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Except that the medical professionals are not suggesting against masks because it won’t help you. They are suggesting it because they don’t think it will stop the spread which means they are interested in the collective.
People who get fixated on masks are missing what actually can stop the spread. It didn’t spread in US because people were not wearing masks, it spread because people kept doing all the same stuff, masks would not have stopped it. People not going to bars, spring break and that other stuff would have.
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On April 03 2020 04:32 JimmiC wrote: Except that the medical professionals are not suggesting against masks because it won’t help you. They are suggesting it because they don’t think it will stop the spread which means they are interested in the collective.
People who get fixated on masks are missing what actually can stop the spread. It didn’t spread in US because people were not wearing masks, it spread because people kept doing all the same stuff, masks would not have stopped it. People not going to bars, spring break and that other stuff would have. The trade-off is quite clear though, and masks really do help, they just don't help the wearer, and if the wearer isn't careful, can increase the risk to him/her.
I've worn a mask when I had a nasty cold and wanted to avoid giving it to my parents when I visited them (last year). It's really hard not to fiddle with it and adjust how it sits on your nose. Now I was clearly not afraid of getting anything, so it didn't really matter that I touched my face more than otherwise, and it probably reduced the amount of germs I spread from coughing or sneezing. But in this case it's quite different. If you ask people who think they're healthy to wear masks, you increase their risk of infection if they fiddle with their mask, which they probably will, being inexperienced users like myself. Is that increased risk to healthy mask-wearers worth the decreased risk from people who are unwittingly spreading Covid-19? Math doesn't seem to work out, but it does depend hugely on the probabilities involved, which are largely unknown. Right now, though, the number of people with Covid-19 are ridiculously low in comparison to those without, though, so to have any kind of positive effect the increased chance of infection through face-touching would have to be microscopic in comparison to the benefit from limiting infection through coughing, and it doesn't seem like it is.
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Just stop with the mask bullshit.
In "western"-culture wearing a facemask, even if deadly sick, was and is just not a thing. The goverment issuing free masks and people actually wearing them is a dilusional idea. Maybe now people would, I still doubt it, but blaming anything on people not wearing masks seems so stupid to me.
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On April 03 2020 07:51 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2020 04:32 JimmiC wrote: Except that the medical professionals are not suggesting against masks because it won’t help you. They are suggesting it because they don’t think it will stop the spread which means they are interested in the collective.
People who get fixated on masks are missing what actually can stop the spread. It didn’t spread in US because people were not wearing masks, it spread because people kept doing all the same stuff, masks would not have stopped it. People not going to bars, spring break and that other stuff would have. The trade-off is quite clear though, and masks really do help, they just don't help the wearer, and if the wearer isn't careful, can increase the risk to him/her. I've worn a mask when I had a nasty cold and wanted to avoid giving it to my parents when I visited them (last year). It's really hard not to fiddle with it and adjust how it sits on your nose. Now I was clearly not afraid of getting anything, so it didn't really matter that I touched my face more than otherwise, and it probably reduced the amount of germs I spread from coughing or sneezing. But in this case it's quite different. If you ask people who think they're healthy to wear masks, you increase their risk of infection if they fiddle with their mask, which they probably will, being inexperienced users like myself. Is that increased risk to healthy mask-wearers worth the decreased risk from people who are unwittingly spreading Covid-19? Math doesn't seem to work out, but it does depend hugely on the probabilities involved, which are largely unknown. Right now, though, the number of people with Covid-19 are ridiculously low in comparison to those without, though, so to have any kind of positive effect the increased chance of infection through face-touching would have to be microscopic in comparison to the benefit from limiting infection through coughing, and it doesn't seem like it is.
Not wearing a mask doesn't stop people from touching their face though. The limited research we have suggests people touch their face every few minutes without masks. I don't think there's any data to support the persistent and admittedly plausible argument that wearing a mask makes you more likely to touch your nose, mouth, or eyes though.
While looking for some I did come across this virologist saying the opposite though.
"Wearing a mask can reduce the propensity for people to touch their faces, which is a major source of infection without proper hand hygiene," says Stephen Griffin a virologist at the University of Leeds, UK.
www.bbc.com
As far as which PPE provides the least benefit and the most false sense of security, I'd give that award to gloves.
Wearing gloves also offers little protection as they can still pick up the virus and spread the contamination. And even with the most diligent of people might struggle to keep from touching their faces completely.
Instead the World Health Organization recommends frequent hand washing...
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I really like wearing gloves as I hate touching my face with gloves.
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On April 03 2020 07:51 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2020 04:32 JimmiC wrote: Except that the medical professionals are not suggesting against masks because it won’t help you. They are suggesting it because they don’t think it will stop the spread which means they are interested in the collective.
People who get fixated on masks are missing what actually can stop the spread. It didn’t spread in US because people were not wearing masks, it spread because people kept doing all the same stuff, masks would not have stopped it. People not going to bars, spring break and that other stuff would have. The trade-off is quite clear though, and masks really do help, they just don't help the wearer, and if the wearer isn't careful, can increase the risk to him/her. I've worn a mask when I had a nasty cold and wanted to avoid giving it to my parents when I visited them (last year). It's really hard not to fiddle with it and adjust how it sits on your nose. Now I was clearly not afraid of getting anything, so it didn't really matter that I touched my face more than otherwise, and it probably reduced the amount of germs I spread from coughing or sneezing. But in this case it's quite different. If you ask people who think they're healthy to wear masks, you increase their risk of infection if they fiddle with their mask, which they probably will, being inexperienced users like myself. Is that increased risk to healthy mask-wearers worth the decreased risk from people who are unwittingly spreading Covid-19? Math doesn't seem to work out, but it does depend hugely on the probabilities involved, which are largely unknown. Right now, though, the number of people with Covid-19 are ridiculously low in comparison to those without, though, so to have any kind of positive effect the increased chance of infection through face-touching would have to be microscopic in comparison to the benefit from limiting infection through coughing, and it doesn't seem like it is.
I'm not sure what the right answer is, and I'm not in the no masks camp. But I have watched our top doctors explain why they are not making masks mandatory and also why they are not recommending them. If people want to wear masks, by all means do so, but supply is not the only reason why they are not recommended. It is a debate without a clear answer and I'm going to do what is currently recommended by the source I most trust. Others are free to do the same I'm just putting out there that there is underlying medical, sociological and cultural reasons that they are not recommended not just poor planning. There is also fake masks being sold from China (likely other places as well, just the place the article I posted had them from) which give all the down sides of masks without any of the benefits.
The completely agreed upon behaviors people can do and everyone agrees on is social distancing of 2 meters, hand washing and not touching your face. If anyone has a cough they should not go out with a mask, they should not go out. For those who have it but don't have any symptoms if you practice the 3 things in this paragraph you are very unlikely to infect others, and if you don't have the above you are very likely not to get infected yourself.
And big thing is if you do get a mask, or see others in a mask do not feel that you are somehow protected and don't need the 2 meters or other behaviors.
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On April 03 2020 08:15 Acrofales wrote: I really like wearing gloves as I hate touching my face with gloves.
As has long been recommended for healthy people dealing with potentially infected people (like people that have to work around a public not wearing masks, particularly medical professionals) properly wearing masks helps and there's no studies to show otherwise. Really workers with interactions between people like cashiers should be wearing masks, and eye protection to prevent them from touching the parts of their face that spread infection from them (in case they have to work while sick or end up homeless) and if they are like you, gloves as a way to reduce their impetus to touch their face and chance of catching it from others.
That's what I'm understanding from the available information. Now, with these all in limited supply people have to choose between working unprotected, not working and not paying bills, or getting proper protection for themselves at the expense of medical professionals that have been ill equipped by their leadership in private institutions and the government in public ones.
And if you're in Laredo, Texas you better wear a mask (scarfs work legally) or get fined.
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It is agreed by everyone on both sides of the mask debate that if it is not a n95 it is not helping you, it may be helping others from you infecting them. And those masks have a short time that they are effective (however I read about a lab that has success cleaning them for up to 10 uses).
If you think wearing a mask that is not n95 and for the short time it works, you are falling into the category of people that the masks make it worse medical community worries about and gaining a false sense of security.
Info on reuse and so on with the n95 masks.
https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/hcwcontrols/recommendedguidanceextuse.html
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On April 03 2020 03:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2020 03:27 TheTenthDoc wrote: There is a difference between believing people are dimwitted and believing that people are imperfect. I could equally argue that those in favor of global masking believe people are too stupid to cough into their armpits and wash down with hand sanitizer-that's ~90% of the way to masking with no consequences to the uninfected. Everything we know about the biological nature of COVID-19 points to standard or ad hoc masks increasing one's chances of contracting COVID-19-it does not help you at all, as you admit, and can hurt you-but preventing one vector of transmission for the infected.
That's a textbook public health tradeoff, and at some point case load will be so high it makes sense to make it, but pretending it's the best policy everywhere is overly simplistic nonsense.
Attributing the success of Asian countries to masking instead of their much faster and more universal acceptance of social distancing is...interesting, to say the least. The acceptance of social distancing is certainly helpful, as is collective social perspectives, and reverence for elders. Masks aren't a silver bullet, just a common sense measure the west will increasingly adapt as it realizes it should have a long time ago (and had stockpiles ready for both medical professionals and the gen pop, but was too busy at every level and in media talking trash about how other countries were handling it to realize how far behind they were by no one's fault but our own). There's a bunch of reasons masks are commons in the east and not the west. And all of them are sanitary.
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On April 03 2020 18:16 Erasme wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2020 03:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 03 2020 03:27 TheTenthDoc wrote: There is a difference between believing people are dimwitted and believing that people are imperfect. I could equally argue that those in favor of global masking believe people are too stupid to cough into their armpits and wash down with hand sanitizer-that's ~90% of the way to masking with no consequences to the uninfected. Everything we know about the biological nature of COVID-19 points to standard or ad hoc masks increasing one's chances of contracting COVID-19-it does not help you at all, as you admit, and can hurt you-but preventing one vector of transmission for the infected.
That's a textbook public health tradeoff, and at some point case load will be so high it makes sense to make it, but pretending it's the best policy everywhere is overly simplistic nonsense.
Attributing the success of Asian countries to masking instead of their much faster and more universal acceptance of social distancing is...interesting, to say the least. The acceptance of social distancing is certainly helpful, as is collective social perspectives, and reverence for elders. Masks aren't a silver bullet, just a common sense measure the west will increasingly adapt as it realizes it should have a long time ago (and had stockpiles ready for both medical professionals and the gen pop, but was too busy at every level and in media talking trash about how other countries were handling it to realize how far behind they were by no one's fault but our own). There's a bunch of reasons masks are commons in the east and not the west. And all of them are sanitary.
I'm sure some people are very uncomfortable about the idea of poor people commonly wearing masks in public too. I can't even typically go into many gas stations with my hood on, let alone masked.
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San Diego has implemented a mandatory mask ("face covering") policy for businesses interacting with the public. The public is not required to wear them but are strongly encouraged to use face coverings. Violating the order can result in $1,000 fine and up to 6 months in jail
The order will make it mandatory for businesses that interact with the public to use cloth face coverings for their employees starting Saturday; that includes grocery stores, pharmacy's and gas stations, according to Supervisor Nathan Fletcher.
Businesses that remain open will also be mandated to set physical distancing and hygiene procedures and post the guidance at the entrance to their business by Tuesday.
The general public will not be required to wear facial coverings but will be urged to do so when out in public, according to the new order. Medical-grade masks should not be used.
The strict regulations already limited gatherings to 10 people or less, closed dine-in restaurants and ended in-person classes for all public and private educational institutions
On Thursday, there were 966 positive cases and 16 deaths reported in San Diego County.
www.nbcsandiego.com
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Apparently stimulus money may take up to 20 weeks to reach Americans. Real helpful on paying rent! I wonder if the corporate bailout money will take as long to arrive.
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As much as I hate how slow the individual stimulus rollout will be, there are a few good reasons why it will take ages. I still can't decide where I personally stand on checks (which hugely penalize those who would have to open accounts just to cash them and have far more logistical hurdles) vs gift cards (which can be easily stolen) vs something else entirely. The US does not have a good infrastructure for providing money directly to adults. Solving the problem for those without stable addresses is another huge hurdle, and I'm not sure if they'll even bother tackling that one.
Hopefully they follow through on everyone who used direct deposit for their taxes getting it that way, though (even though that's part of why corporations are sure to get it much faster).
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Cuomo is problematic af imo (prison workers making hand sanitizer they don't have access to as an example) but he's signing an executive order to appropriate ventilators and PPE gear from private and public facilities around the state and redeploy them as state determined need dictates.
He does these daily briefings that are more informative than Trump's much longer ones imo.
He talks about it ~10 minutes from the start
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On April 04 2020 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote: As much as I hate how slow the individual stimulus rollout will be, there are a few good reasons why it will take ages. I still can't decide where I personally stand on checks (which hugely penalize those who would have to open accounts just to cash them and have far more logistical hurdles) vs gift cards (which can be easily stolen) vs something else entirely. The US does not have a good infrastructure for providing money directly to adults. Solving the problem for those without stable addresses is another huge hurdle, and I'm not sure if they'll even bother tackling that one.
Hopefully they follow through on everyone who used direct deposit for their taxes getting it that way, though (even though that's part of why corporations are sure to get it much faster). Folks who use direct deposit for tax refunds should get their stimulus in under two weeks, per my inside sources
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On April 04 2020 00:21 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2020 00:14 TheTenthDoc wrote: As much as I hate how slow the individual stimulus rollout will be, there are a few good reasons why it will take ages. I still can't decide where I personally stand on checks (which hugely penalize those who would have to open accounts just to cash them and have far more logistical hurdles) vs gift cards (which can be easily stolen) vs something else entirely. The US does not have a good infrastructure for providing money directly to adults. Solving the problem for those without stable addresses is another huge hurdle, and I'm not sure if they'll even bother tackling that one.
Hopefully they follow through on everyone who used direct deposit for their taxes getting it that way, though (even though that's part of why corporations are sure to get it much faster). Folks who use direct deposit for tax refunds should get their stimulus in under two weeks, per my inside sources This correct from my reading. It is expected to take as long as 6 months to get checks though.
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