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On July 10 2019 21:48 Boggyb wrote:
Had soO invested in overlord speed and repeatedly attempted to scout what Zest was doing but was denied, then yeah, you can complain about Protoss, but all he did was run a few Zerglings by the front which only tells you if Zest's army has moved out, not what he's building.
I, too, like investing 100 gas and 100 minerals into an upgrade that's not critically useful and can outright lose you the game vs a DT drop. Versus a person who opens DT drop a lot.
But I'm sure soO could use some coaching!
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Czech Republic12125 Posts
On July 11 2019 02:58 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 01:39 Alejandrisha wrote:
so many times i see this from late game zerg-- the queens get reassigned to tasks other than injecting and zerg does not add macro hatches and when it is time to either tech switch or mass resupply after a fight, they have like 6 larva. there needs to be a zerg revolution of either resupplying queens in mid game or massive macro hatches. has anyone else noticed this trend?? Yes, not sure how much of a trend it is or if it’s long been the case. They have their inject queens, creep queens but aren’t always great at replacing them or keeping track. Maybe macro hatches is something we should see more of, not necessarily because they’re better (haven’t done the maths), but keeping track of queens, rebuilding them, assigning them correctly all with everything else you’re doing, maybe macro hatches would be less attention intensive. Also I think there’s strategic potential. If all your production is rallying from 4-5 base hatches it all arrives at different times, via different routes etc. If the game is flowing in a certain way and you’re either attacking or defending around a particular area, maybe building macro hatches to reflect that might be worth exploring. Or build a cluster of 2-3 gradually and pull Queens to it. These ideas might be total garbage but I’ve legitimately never seen it experimented with much in the entirety of SC2s lifespan. We’ve all seen games where the Zerg theoretically has enough to break a push but it’s filtering in from 3/4 places and never hits critical mass and they die.
What I usually do is that I build 4 additional hatcheries in my main, put there 5 queens in total and set the camera key to focus on the middle. This way I can select all the hatch queens, spam the inject and NOT switch the screen. But I am in a wooden league  OTOH soO was the biggest macro zerg ever in HotS, when you looked at his games he a-moved his army so many times to do injects, it's a wonder that now it's different...
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Northern Ireland23086 Posts
On July 11 2019 04:42 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 02:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 11 2019 01:39 Alejandrisha wrote:
so many times i see this from late game zerg-- the queens get reassigned to tasks other than injecting and zerg does not add macro hatches and when it is time to either tech switch or mass resupply after a fight, they have like 6 larva. there needs to be a zerg revolution of either resupplying queens in mid game or massive macro hatches. has anyone else noticed this trend?? Yes, not sure how much of a trend it is or if it’s long been the case. They have their inject queens, creep queens but aren’t always great at replacing them or keeping track. Maybe macro hatches is something we should see more of, not necessarily because they’re better (haven’t done the maths), but keeping track of queens, rebuilding them, assigning them correctly all with everything else you’re doing, maybe macro hatches would be less attention intensive. Also I think there’s strategic potential. If all your production is rallying from 4-5 base hatches it all arrives at different times, via different routes etc. If the game is flowing in a certain way and you’re either attacking or defending around a particular area, maybe building macro hatches to reflect that might be worth exploring. Or build a cluster of 2-3 gradually and pull Queens to it. These ideas might be total garbage but I’ve legitimately never seen it experimented with much in the entirety of SC2s lifespan. We’ve all seen games where the Zerg theoretically has enough to break a push but it’s filtering in from 3/4 places and never hits critical mass and they die. What I usually do is that I build 4 additional hatcheries in my main, put there 5 queens in total and set the camera key to focus on the middle. This way I can select all the hatch queens, spam the inject and NOT switch the screen. But I am in a wooden league OTOH soO was the biggest macro zerg ever in HotS, when you looked at his games he a-moved his army so many times to do injects, it's a wonder that now it's different...
A fellow innovator I see! I’ve legit never seen folks try it haha, I experimented with a macro Nexus for chrono and sim city for a while but I must confess it didn’t seem very good.
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On July 11 2019 03:21 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 21:48 Boggyb wrote:
Had soO invested in overlord speed and repeatedly attempted to scout what Zest was doing but was denied, then yeah, you can complain about Protoss, but all he did was run a few Zerglings by the front which only tells you if Zest's army has moved out, not what he's building. I, too, like investing 100 gas and 100 minerals into an upgrade that's not critically useful and can outright lose you the game vs a DT drop. Versus a person who opens DT drop a lot. But I'm sure soO could use some coaching!
He couldn't afford overlord speed, but he could afford a dozen of overlords that where insta killed after hatching from the egg?
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On July 11 2019 03:21 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 21:48 Boggyb wrote:
Had soO invested in overlord speed and repeatedly attempted to scout what Zest was doing but was denied, then yeah, you can complain about Protoss, but all he did was run a few Zerglings by the front which only tells you if Zest's army has moved out, not what he's building. I, too, like investing 100 gas and 100 minerals into an upgrade that's not critically useful and can outright lose you the game vs a DT drop. Versus a person who opens DT drop a lot. But I'm sure soO could use some coaching!
I don't care to go back and look at the timers, but that push from Zest had to be 2-3 minutes later minimum than a DT/Archon drop would have hit. soO knew that Zest didn't have a third (or at least not one below the main. I don't know if he checked the other 3rd location) and he saw that Zest was keeping his army at home and instead of using an overlord to confirm what was going on, he assumed that Zest was going for a super delayed Immortal Sentry Chargelot all in.
soO being lazy says more about Zerg than it does about Protoss.
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So would lowering the cost for ovie speed be a good non game breaking way to mitigate this scouting problem in ZvP?
Personally I'd just buff queen range; It's been a while we had one of those and what could possibly go wrong with that.
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On July 11 2019 16:58 Penev wrote:
So would lowering the cost for ovie speed be a good non game breaking way to mitigate this scouting problem in ZvP?
Personally I'd just buff queen range; It's been a while we had one of those and what could possibly go wrong with that.
hahaha
i think the extra macro hatches is the answer. since queens have become the coverall for the zerg defense, you basically don't have injects in the mid-late game. and how many times have you seen a zerg floating 3k mins and 0 gas? adding these hatches would be, as wombat_ni mentioned, less attention-intensive and also a constant source of larva. every zvp when zerg is defending the 2 base immortal push, as in pvt it is called 'the boys are pulled' and all the inject queens are brought to the front lines. zerg might hold here, but has lost a lot of potential larva production.
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Northern Ireland23086 Posts
On July 13 2019 06:19 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 16:58 Penev wrote:
So would lowering the cost for ovie speed be a good non game breaking way to mitigate this scouting problem in ZvP?
Personally I'd just buff queen range; It's been a while we had one of those and what could possibly go wrong with that. hahaha i think the extra macro hatches is the answer. since queens have become the coverall for the zerg defense, you basically don't have injects in the mid-late game. and how many times have you seen a zerg floating 3k mins and 0 gas? adding these hatches would be, as wombat_ni mentioned, less attention-intensive and also a constant source of larva. every zvp when zerg is defending the 2 base immortal push, as in pvt it is called 'the boys are pulled' and all the inject queens are brought to the front lines. zerg might hold here, but has lost a lot of potential larva production.
It’s interesting, I want to see someone try these things out.
As it is I’m terrible so I can’t really switch to Zerg and revolutionise the game with clustered macro hatches or w/e
As a semi-learned theorycrafter it intrigues me a lot though. Especially given I’ve never seen it at any level of play.
It’s rare but a sometimes us pure armchair folks get it right though. I’ve felt for ages that the nydus is crazy potent in lategame and felt it was way under-used. Being able to teleport large chunks of an already fast army, for relatively small investment just seemed it should be being used to pull Terran into knots, seemed a no brainer to at least try it.
Lo and behold Serral especially has done that last few months and it looks extremely effective
We can but dream to see someone read this and show up at GSL with the macro hatches
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On July 13 2019 06:53 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2019 06:19 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 11 2019 16:58 Penev wrote:
So would lowering the cost for ovie speed be a good non game breaking way to mitigate this scouting problem in ZvP?
Personally I'd just buff queen range; It's been a while we had one of those and what could possibly go wrong with that. hahaha i think the extra macro hatches is the answer. since queens have become the coverall for the zerg defense, you basically don't have injects in the mid-late game. and how many times have you seen a zerg floating 3k mins and 0 gas? adding these hatches would be, as wombat_ni mentioned, less attention-intensive and also a constant source of larva. every zvp when zerg is defending the 2 base immortal push, as in pvt it is called 'the boys are pulled' and all the inject queens are brought to the front lines. zerg might hold here, but has lost a lot of potential larva production. It’s interesting, I want to see someone try these things out. As it is I’m terrible so I can’t really switch to Zerg and revolutionise the game with clustered macro hatches or w/e As a semi-learned theorycrafter it intrigues me a lot though. Especially given I’ve never seen it at any level of play. It’s rare but a sometimes us pure armchair folks get it right though. I’ve felt for ages that the nydus is crazy potent in lategame and felt it was way under-used. Being able to teleport large chunks of an already fast army, for relatively small investment just seemed it should be being used to pull Terran into knots, seemed a no brainer to at least try it. Lo and behold Serral especially has done that last few months and it looks extremely effective We can but dream to see someone read this and show up at GSL with the macro hatches
idk it seems all zergs fall prey to the 'bring the boys'.. ik you need to live NOW but you need to live BETTER LATER. but it's all about walking that tightrope. we'll just have to see.
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Northern Ireland23086 Posts
On July 15 2019 05:28 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2019 06:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 13 2019 06:19 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 11 2019 16:58 Penev wrote:
So would lowering the cost for ovie speed be a good non game breaking way to mitigate this scouting problem in ZvP?
Personally I'd just buff queen range; It's been a while we had one of those and what could possibly go wrong with that. hahaha i think the extra macro hatches is the answer. since queens have become the coverall for the zerg defense, you basically don't have injects in the mid-late game. and how many times have you seen a zerg floating 3k mins and 0 gas? adding these hatches would be, as wombat_ni mentioned, less attention-intensive and also a constant source of larva. every zvp when zerg is defending the 2 base immortal push, as in pvt it is called 'the boys are pulled' and all the inject queens are brought to the front lines. zerg might hold here, but has lost a lot of potential larva production. It’s interesting, I want to see someone try these things out. As it is I’m terrible so I can’t really switch to Zerg and revolutionise the game with clustered macro hatches or w/e As a semi-learned theorycrafter it intrigues me a lot though. Especially given I’ve never seen it at any level of play. It’s rare but a sometimes us pure armchair folks get it right though. I’ve felt for ages that the nydus is crazy potent in lategame and felt it was way under-used. Being able to teleport large chunks of an already fast army, for relatively small investment just seemed it should be being used to pull Terran into knots, seemed a no brainer to at least try it. Lo and behold Serral especially has done that last few months and it looks extremely effective We can but dream to see someone read this and show up at GSL with the macro hatches idk it seems all zergs fall prey to the 'bring the boys'.. ik you need to live NOW but you need to live BETTER LATER. but it's all about walking that tightrope. we'll just have to see.
Fingers crossed the game goes another 10+ years at least, my youngling is 6 now. If you ever see some Northern Irish lunatic burst into the scene with revolutionary macro hatches you know who to blame, I’ll give credit for the idea of course if his coach is ever interviewed!
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On July 15 2019 09:35 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2019 05:28 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 13 2019 06:53 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 13 2019 06:19 Alejandrisha wrote:On July 11 2019 16:58 Penev wrote:
So would lowering the cost for ovie speed be a good non game breaking way to mitigate this scouting problem in ZvP?
Personally I'd just buff queen range; It's been a while we had one of those and what could possibly go wrong with that. hahaha i think the extra macro hatches is the answer. since queens have become the coverall for the zerg defense, you basically don't have injects in the mid-late game. and how many times have you seen a zerg floating 3k mins and 0 gas? adding these hatches would be, as wombat_ni mentioned, less attention-intensive and also a constant source of larva. every zvp when zerg is defending the 2 base immortal push, as in pvt it is called 'the boys are pulled' and all the inject queens are brought to the front lines. zerg might hold here, but has lost a lot of potential larva production. It’s interesting, I want to see someone try these things out. As it is I’m terrible so I can’t really switch to Zerg and revolutionise the game with clustered macro hatches or w/e As a semi-learned theorycrafter it intrigues me a lot though. Especially given I’ve never seen it at any level of play. It’s rare but a sometimes us pure armchair folks get it right though. I’ve felt for ages that the nydus is crazy potent in lategame and felt it was way under-used. Being able to teleport large chunks of an already fast army, for relatively small investment just seemed it should be being used to pull Terran into knots, seemed a no brainer to at least try it. Lo and behold Serral especially has done that last few months and it looks extremely effective We can but dream to see someone read this and show up at GSL with the macro hatches idk it seems all zergs fall prey to the 'bring the boys'.. ik you need to live NOW but you need to live BETTER LATER. but it's all about walking that tightrope. we'll just have to see. Fingers crossed the game goes another 10+ years at least, my youngling is 6 now. If you ever see some Northern Irish lunatic burst into the scene with revolutionary macro hatches you know who to blame, I’ll give credit for the idea of course if his coach is ever interviewed!
hahaha <3333
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EPT
