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Croatia9400 Posts
On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack. Mutastack is not a "bug". It's simply an unintended consequence of a very intended game logic code. BW is full of them, which is what makes it a great game.
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Finally, someone admitted that Blizzard buffed terran. Thank you. And zerg was not made stronger due to decreased queen stuff or due to the ultra's lowered limit. They lowered the BC and Carrier limit as well. Queens are not used as frequently so it doesn't really matter for them. Ultras are fine, but in the light of increasing pool's cost, lurker's upgrade cost and whatnot, I really do not feel the ultra limit being lowered to 4 from 6 that relieveing for the ZvT match. Blizzard made T stronger and stopped caring about BW and stopped at that. That's a possible reason for the T>Z imbalance. By using more ">" signs I do not think that T>Z twice as bad as Z>P. But it is sensibly worse for a number of reasons. I am sorry I cannot give you a proper quantitative measure, but T>Z is worse than Z>P. We can't use the same metaphor we used for T-Z and T-P for the PvZ match from the P perspective, can we? The only worry a P has relatively early is if Z goes 4 pool (never, and is beatable when scouted) or goes for a hydra bust. Why did you even pick to relate to the T-P imbalance?
One more thank you for admitting that the scouting deficit for Z is present and is not only in my thoughts. And no, the overlord (if it survives to reach the destination) watching the natural is useful but to a very small degree when looking at the broader picture. I would be really interested in seeing maps that will account for that because it seems hard to be imagined. I can only hope Blizzard wants to put actual work into BW HD, then we have a revival maybe and then we have Freaklingzerg or other talented mapmakers coming out with great map solutions for this idea that you proposed.
Also thank you for admitting that the mutastack might be a bug. To me, it's not normal that without airstacking, I will almost be barred from winning decent Terrans. Understand that I want to experiment and play differently - pure hydras, queen's ensnare, guardians play or muta/ling/defiler play but this is just pure theory/fantasy and in reality it's really hard to pull of and zerg gets beaten pretty badly vs good Ts a decent amount.
Also Advokate won 1 game vs Jaedong but was interestingly close to winning any of the other two games, perhaps rewatch them.
So nowadays nobody's opinion on anything won't count because they are not in pro teams and playing mostly ladder games? For instance the top4 zerg complaints accompanied by FlaSh and Sea admitting that T op vs Z seriously on FS are worthless to you?
Thank you also for admitting that T 1base is viable. When Zerg is on any number different than 2 and doing unit different than ling, lurk or muta, maybe hydra and scourge, it is not even viable, let alone you can find it in serious games' archives. Yes, I've seen ZerO win off 1hatch Muta vs decent T but how many times to do u see 1 base Z or 2base hydra play vs T doing miracles in comparison to T1 base builds? Please replay or vod of that 7muta 2 hydra play though. This is complete non-sense of a build for now, nobody has ever done it throughout the years. There are interesting builds that are not standard and could be practiced and polished to achieve good results, but I won't share those. But then again, it's all lurk or muta. Terran has much more options to do well vs Z throughout the whole game. This also accounts for the T>Z imbalance IMO.
Also I have to disagree that zerg's static defence is the best represented by buildings. I really do not see how any 1100 mineral - 1100 gas Terran attack investment can be completely denied at whatever the place by a 675 mineral investment by the zerg in static defences. (11 mutas vs 9 turrets). Consider that in this example T has defended 2 bases here, while for zerg there's no such thing as "defending everywhere". Yes, the bunker does need units to be filled up but the bunker can do miracles, like real miracles. Decent terran can kill as many zerglings as he wants to if he has a bunker and a proper walloff which is easy to achieve on most natural expansions. It's very hard to overdefend for T. Zerg has to has just about enough to survive, if he doesn't - he is being taken out of the game early, if he overdefends - he is taken out of the game later. I hope I don't have to provide replays or youtube links to account for that.
Please remember that in relating to the supposed T>Z imbalance, I haven't mentioned even once the latest mech switch. I am not even talking mid or late game here to account for the picture at that point in the game. I also suspect that the data that describe the T>Z imbalance as equal to the Z>P cannot account for the latest mech switch as well.
As for the discussion, if I had to come up with assumptions about numbers, I am not claiming that T>Z (75%) or something high like that. If it's Z>P (54%), then T>Z must be higher than that. But I guess time will tell on that number.
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On October 26 2016 06:49 2Pacalypse- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack. Mutastack is not a "bug". It's simply an unintended consequence of a very intended game logic code. BW is full of them, which is what makes it a great game.
Might be a bug, might be not, I don't like the fact that ZvT now revolves almost exclusively on zerg being able to mutastack. I want to be able to play hydra/ling/ensnare/plague style ZvT for example and not be beaten severely.
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DarkNetHunter + Show Spoiler +Although I agree with most of the things you're saying, and T>Z>P>T isn't that big (54-54-52 is good imo) to be argued over 9 pages in 2016, I just want to disagree with the 7 muta thing. 7 mutas are not going to do anything 7 mins into the game. Terran will always look for engagements even against 9 mutas, if he sees you are weak he can march straight to your 3rd and easily defend any harassment. 7 mutas will very often fail to kill marines with H micro. Also 3 hatch muta needs to have the potential to do damage. It's quite often that Terran misses turret timing by few seconds (at least at pro level where they try to cut it close) which creates a window for harrassment, but 7 mutas will not be able to exploit that. The only way it could be useful would be against a Terran that makes too much defense due to early marine losses imo (and you're still gambling on that) or maybe against 2 rax tech which is almost never seen anymore. Note that the situation is competely different from 6 mutas with 2 hatch timing, because they spawn almost a minute earlier, when Terran will have significantly less of a bio force, making them stronger
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On October 26 2016 08:58 ortseam wrote:DarkNetHunter + Show Spoiler +Although I agree with most of the things you're saying, and T>Z>P>T isn't that big (54-54-52 is good imo) to be argued over 9 pages in 2016, I just want to disagree with the 7 muta thing. 7 mutas are not going to do anything 7 mins into the game. Terran will always look for engagements even against 9 mutas, if he sees you are weak he can march straight to your 3rd and easily defend any harassment. 7 mutas will very often fail to kill marines with H micro. Also 3 hatch muta needs to have the potential to do damage. It's quite often that Terran misses turret timing by few seconds (at least at pro level where they try to cut it close) which creates a window for harrassment, but 7 mutas will not be able to exploit that. The only way it could be useful would be against a Terran that makes too much defense due to early marine losses imo (and you're still gambling on that) or maybe against 2 rax tech which is almost never seen anymore. Note that the situation is competely different from 6 mutas with 2 hatch timing, because they spawn almost a minute earlier, when Terran will have significantly less of a bio force, making them stronger Thanks, I don't know about the viability either and I was not the one who came up with it, it was just a derivative of the discussion Technics and Cryoc were having that I decided sounded interesting since it was a discussion focused on scouting information. Basically creating unforced errors on the Terran by using his scan limitation (2scans to scout 3 locations). You would only be restricted to 7mutas during the first few seconds though, just as you reinforce your 9mutas to 11 or more you could reinforce the 7 to more as well to defend your third or whatever. I guess it would be more of a gamble that T will commit to same level of defense/stay at home while you transition to lurkers faster instead. I am aware of the differences between 3hatch and 2hatch play =)
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On October 25 2016 02:18 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 00:31 Dante08 wrote: Technics, have you ever thought it might just be a coincidence that the top players right now happen to be Terran? If Flash didn't return to BW and JD was in his place and tearing Terrans apart left and right we wouldn't even be having this discussion right now.
Also discussing balance in the perspective of your own playing experience is totally irrelevant. I play Terran and struggle against Zergs who know how to defend their 3rd properly. Obviously that does not mean Zerg is imbalanced as I know I have a lot of areas to improve in. If everyone started talking about balance outside the Korean scene Protoss would be the most imbalanced race.
1 thing I do agree Terran has a lot more build options vs Zerg. But then again any good Zerg knows how to scout and deflect it relatively easily.
If you want to talk about balance why not focus on maps? Like how FS is Terran favoured, easy access to a 3rd, short rush distances between bases, map can be easily split in half without covering a lot of distance.
It's 2016, I think you've played this game long enough to know skill beats racial imbalance all day.
Dante08, I am discussing balance from the perspective of my overall BW experience which includes many years of playing, discussing, watching and reading about BW in various forms, not just my playing ZvT experience. One thing I certainly disagree with in your post is in relation to zerg's scouting abilities in the ZvT matchup which I covered in my previous posts. Here's what I wrote: Zergs scout initially well with a drone only 33% of the time and have information for not too much time afterwards. 33% of the time Z has overlord on T's exp when he scouted from the first time and this is not too much of a scout as discussed. The last 33% of the time IF overlord doesn't die on the way to the terran's natural, then the scoutting is still poor. and ...many times when Z sees what build terran does judging by the attacking forces already out well in the map usually is too late for Z to react to survive. Perhaps I can add that I don't consider "scouting" the moment when I see how many marines a terran has that are seconds away from the center of the map and then to determine maybe correctly or maybe not whether the T has 4 or 5 barracks. I also wrote a little bit on the map aspect in the last post of page 6 in this thread. Perhaps you can take a look at it and tell me what you think about it.
I was thinking of making a long post but I think it'll be never-ending. Let's just hope JD comes back officially soon and starts destroying Terrans left and right.
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Hello again, guys.
On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack.
For example I view the muta stack discovery as a turning point in ZvT gameplay. But how do we even describe the Mutastack as an example of airstacking units? I mean is it physically realistical to even imagine, let alone place air units stacked in the air to shoot air and ground targets at the same time with the same success from the same angle every time? It's not a normal thing for sure so the question is: is it some sort of BW "bug" that was decided to be unfixed to have the air units stack when selected with a unit far from the mutas? If it weren't for the Muta stack, what would Zerg do nowadays vs Terran on FS for example?.
You can stack air units of any race by grouping them with a distinct unit. Stacking is not something that was just a lucky accident for Mutalisks (a bug), but rather it is a feature of the game that players of all races can exploit. Whether or not it was intended is irrelevant; what is relevant is that it makes the game balanced. Without stacking, the Mutalisk harassment wouldn't be nearly as effective, and this means the Terran player would have more initiative in the mid-game. I think this initiative would translate to more wins over Zerg players in general.
On October 26 2016 07:48 LRM)TechnicS wrote:
So nowadays nobody's opinion on anything won't count because they are not in pro teams and playing mostly ladder games? For instance the top4 zerg complaints accompanied by FlaSh and Sea admitting that T op vs Z seriously on FS are worthless to you?
The pros can whine and complain until they're blue in the face, I still won't believe there's a TvZ imbalance unless I see that Terran is winning significantly more games than Zerg. Since those 4 Terrans you mentioned (Last, Mind, Piano and Mong) have 49 wins collectively against the 49 wins of those 4 Zerg players (Effort, Zero, hero and Larva) this month, I'm disinclined to think T>>Z. Also, according to TLPD on FS for the leagues in 2009-2010, TvZ: 148-139 (51.6%), which further disproves this.
EDIT: Also, if the pros claim that TvZ is imbalanced on Fighting Spirit, then why do they continue to play on it? The Zerg players can simply insist on playing another map, but they don't.
LRM)TechnicS wrote: The quantitative data provided by LegalLord is very nice done IMO but do not account for much of the in-game stuff that is going on in TvZ. Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks and is playing a bigger amount of the time "in the dark" compared to terran. The factors that influence the T>>Z imbalance perhaps are plenty, maybe even relatively tiny but they probably compound enough to make for the T>>Z imbalance.
If it's true that Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks than Terran, then why don't Zerg players lose significantly more games than Terran? How can these "risks" be considered disadvantageous if Terran players can't capitalize on them to win more games? Even though Zerg cannot see what's in the Terran base, he can usually see how many Marines the Terran player has (and thus how many Barracks) by poking in with the Zerglings. There are even tricks to sneak a Zergling in and get a full scout of the Terran base. Once the Mutalisks are out and harassment begins, the Terran's base will be revealed.
On October 23 2016 23:57 zaMNal wrote: Because people are talking about TvZ issues..
SCV hp of 60 was one of the bigger baffles for me personally for the longest time. It takes whole 7 mutalisks to 1-shot an scv but probe and drone need just 5 mutalisks. This difference is huge, pretty unfair.
Some say it's because SCV doesn't have regeneration like probes or drones. BUT it has direct manual healing(repair) available at any time, which is at least as good as regen, and is especially superb when doing bunker/scv rushes.
Bringing scv to 40 hp would make it very fair, especially as it can be repaired to 100% in few seconds. Or 45 hp max (still 5 mutalisk to 1-shot it). 60 is just waay over the top as long as they can be repaired.
Repair is not better than auto-regeneration. How often do you see pro Terran players repairing their SCVs during Mutalisk harassment? They're too busy microing the Medic/Marine army and building stuff to have the APM to do that. If an SCV gets injured, it will usually stay injured indefinitely. You're also forgetting that the Mutalisk attack does splash damage, so even though one volley may not kill one SCV, the next volley may be enough to kill 2 SCVs. Also, the SCV attack is not ranged, which means the outcome of a Probe/Drone vs. SCV battle is unclear--only the one with the best micro will win it. My point is that the SCV hp is good as it is. Who knows how a decrease in SCV hit points would affect TvZ?
LRM)TechnicS wrote: Thank you also for admitting that T 1base is viable. When Zerg is on any number different than 2 and doing unit different than ling, lurk or muta, maybe hydra and scourge, it is not even viable, let alone you can find it in serious games' archives. Yes, I've seen ZerO win off 1hatch Muta vs decent T but how many times to do u see 1 base Z or 2base hydra play vs T doing miracles in comparison to T1 base builds? Please replay or vod of that 7muta 2 hydra play though. This is complete non-sense of a build for now, nobody has ever done it throughout the years. There are interesting builds that are not standard and could be practiced and polished to achieve good results, but I won't share those. But then again, it's all lurk or muta. Terran has much more options to do well vs Z throughout the whole game. This also accounts for the T>Z imbalance IMO.
Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran.
+ Show Spoiler +Game 3 of JD vs FantaSy in the Batoo OSL in April of 2009
LRM)TechnicS wrote: I imagine that in Korea if the map is made by Rose.of.Dream and it looks symmetrical, everyone instantly believes it's balanced and it's great while in reality there's a good chance it's not. A proof of that is how Wind and Cloud had significantly different mining rates for zerg in main bases. If a Zerg spawned top left and played vs another zerg on bottom right, he has to have bo advantage to be even with his opponent. Maybe he was negligent in just this map, but maybe not.
So if the most prominent korean mapmaker Rose.of.Dream hasn't put the efforts to find out how to position mineral patches in the main base to not have visible imbalances, what should we expect about the supposed more sophisticated stuff?
The case is different abroad though as we have Freaklingzerg who's deeply knowledged, willing to learn more, creative and actually puts a lot of work into his maps.
That's a very interesting point. It seems because he was the creator of Fighting Spirit, people automatically trust that his other maps are just as good. Would it be possible for Freakling to present his maps so that they can be considered for future starleagues? It would be a shame if all his hard work went unnoticed.
Sincerely, Shalashaska_123
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You don't need the 7mutas to harass immediately, you just need to have the threat so that T is forced to build turrets/stay in base, with your next round of larva you can still get enough mutas to make normal harass viable if that is what you want to pursue. this build is just terrible for any 4 rax +1 or 5 rax +1 and 85% bad vs 3 rax,i can only think this build working vs 2 rax fast tech but even so the number of mutas is not high enough to keep him far from your expos or front attacking you,is recommended in the late game to have always 7-8 mutas so from time to time u kill some scvs from supplies and future CC scvs and why not cleaning mines.
Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran. idk if you are joking ,but this a totally different situation from what technics was talking about the 7 mutas 2 hydra play.
i have tried this build also,and usually terran just bust kill me with brute force,timings are off,no enough mutas no enough lurkers to do real damage,i manage to defend my third base but no way to defend my main.
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On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? Kwanro
Also don't make me fly back to Sofia and steal your kidneys for all this balance whine Dimitar, I swear I'll do it
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On October 26 2016 16:34 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran. idk if you are joking ,but this a totally different situation from what technics was talking about the 7 mutas 2 hydra play.
i have tried this build also,and usually terran just bust kill me with brute force,timings are off,no enough mutas no enough lurkers to do real damage,i manage to defend my third base but no way to defend my main.
I was joking. I've never seen this 7 Muta/2 Hydra play in a pro game before (and for good reason I suppose), but this 5 Muta/5 Hydra play was the closest thing I could think of to that. I'm sorry you didn't find it funny... The tone I had in my head when I was writing that bolded part must not have been the same tone that you read it in.
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On October 26 2016 00:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 23:11 aedeph wrote: Btw, probability of 88.2% player making 14-0 in 14 games is 0.882 ^ 14 ~ 17%. That's 1 to 5, not the greatest chances. 17% chance to win 14-0 some of the top zergs to ever play the game is not great chances?
While they show that event can actually happen, I wouldn't bet until 5-1 pot odds. But also, it's Flash we are talking about, that's why he is called "God" and he is unanimously considered the greatest ever.
Besides, Bisu has already accomplished challenge by making it 16-0 vs Larva in September. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/514536-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-september So, I guess, you should also start crying on ZvB imba.
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On October 26 2016 20:37 aedeph wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 00:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote:On October 25 2016 23:11 aedeph wrote: Btw, probability of 88.2% player making 14-0 in 14 games is 0.882 ^ 14 ~ 17%. That's 1 to 5, not the greatest chances. 17% chance to win 14-0 some of the top zergs to ever play the game is not great chances? While they show that event can actually happen, I wouldn't bet until 5-1 pot odds. But also, it's Flash we are talking about, that's why he is called "God" and he is unanimously considered the greatest ever. Besides, Bisu has already accomplished challenge by making it 16-0 vs Larva in September. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/514536-bw-afreeca-top-5-players-in-the-month-of-september So, I guess, you should also start crying on ZvB imba.
I am not crying. I also think that Z>P. Bisu did it vs Larva but will he be able to do it vs EffOrt, HerO and ZerO as well? Doubt so... While FlaSh, on the other hand, might have significantly better chances at this.
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On October 26 2016 14:05 Shalashaska_123 wrote:Hello again, guys. Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 05:20 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Also, how do you account with numbers that the mutastack might be just a bug that could and more importantly SHOULD have been removed? TvZ would have been even more imbalanced without the mutastack.
For example I view the muta stack discovery as a turning point in ZvT gameplay. But how do we even describe the Mutastack as an example of airstacking units? I mean is it physically realistical to even imagine, let alone place air units stacked in the air to shoot air and ground targets at the same time with the same success from the same angle every time? It's not a normal thing for sure so the question is: is it some sort of BW "bug" that was decided to be unfixed to have the air units stack when selected with a unit far from the mutas? If it weren't for the Muta stack, what would Zerg do nowadays vs Terran on FS for example?. You can stack air units of any race by grouping them with a distinct unit. Stacking is not something that was just a lucky accident for Mutalisks (a bug), but rather it is a feature of the game that players of all races can exploit. Whether or not it was intended is irrelevant; what is relevant is that it makes the game balanced. Without stacking, the Mutalisk harassment wouldn't be nearly as effective, and this means the Terran player would have more initiative in the mid-game. I think this initiative would translate to more wins over Zerg players in general. Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 07:48 LRM)TechnicS wrote:
So nowadays nobody's opinion on anything won't count because they are not in pro teams and playing mostly ladder games? For instance the top4 zerg complaints accompanied by FlaSh and Sea admitting that T op vs Z seriously on FS are worthless to you?
The pros can whine and complain until they're blue in the face, I still won't believe there's a TvZ imbalance unless I see that Terran is winning significantly more games than Zerg. Since those 4 Terrans you mentioned (Last, Mind, Piano and Mong) have 49 wins collectively against the 49 wins of those 4 Zerg players (Effort, Zero, hero and Larva) this month, I'm disinclined to think T>>Z. Also, according to TLPD on FS for the leagues in 2009-2010, TvZ: 148-139 (51.6%), which further disproves this. EDIT: Also, if the pros claim that TvZ is imbalanced on Fighting Spirit, then why do they continue to play on it? The Zerg players can simply insist on playing another map, but they don't. Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: The quantitative data provided by LegalLord is very nice done IMO but do not account for much of the in-game stuff that is going on in TvZ. Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks and is playing a bigger amount of the time "in the dark" compared to terran. The factors that influence the T>>Z imbalance perhaps are plenty, maybe even relatively tiny but they probably compound enough to make for the T>>Z imbalance.
If it's true that Zerg takes bigger and more frequent risks than Terran, then why don't Zerg players lose significantly more games than Terran? How can these "risks" be considered disadvantageous if Terran players can't capitalize on them to win more games? Even though Zerg cannot see what's in the Terran base, he can usually see how many Marines the Terran player has (and thus how many Barracks) by poking in with the Zerglings. There are even tricks to sneak a Zergling in and get a full scout of the Terran base. Once the Mutalisks are out and harassment begins, the Terran's base will be revealed. Show nested quote +On October 23 2016 23:57 zaMNal wrote: Because people are talking about TvZ issues..
SCV hp of 60 was one of the bigger baffles for me personally for the longest time. It takes whole 7 mutalisks to 1-shot an scv but probe and drone need just 5 mutalisks. This difference is huge, pretty unfair.
Some say it's because SCV doesn't have regeneration like probes or drones. BUT it has direct manual healing(repair) available at any time, which is at least as good as regen, and is especially superb when doing bunker/scv rushes.
Bringing scv to 40 hp would make it very fair, especially as it can be repaired to 100% in few seconds. Or 45 hp max (still 5 mutalisk to 1-shot it). 60 is just waay over the top as long as they can be repaired. Repair is not better than auto-regeneration. How often do you see pro Terran players repairing their SCVs during Mutalisk harassment? They're too busy microing the Medic/Marine army and building stuff to have the APM to do that. If an SCV gets injured, it will usually stay injured indefinitely. You're also forgetting that the Mutalisk attack does splash damage, so even though one volley may not kill one SCV, the next volley may be enough to kill 2 SCVs. Also, the SCV attack is not ranged, which means the outcome of a Probe/Drone vs. SCV battle is unclear--only the one with the best micro will win it. My point is that the SCV hp is good as it is. Who knows how a decrease in SCV hit points would affect TvZ? Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: Thank you also for admitting that T 1base is viable. When Zerg is on any number different than 2 and doing unit different than ling, lurk or muta, maybe hydra and scourge, it is not even viable, let alone you can find it in serious games' archives. Yes, I've seen ZerO win off 1hatch Muta vs decent T but how many times to do u see 1 base Z or 2base hydra play vs T doing miracles in comparison to T1 base builds? Please replay or vod of that 7muta 2 hydra play though. This is complete non-sense of a build for now, nobody has ever done it throughout the years. There are interesting builds that are not standard and could be practiced and polished to achieve good results, but I won't share those. But then again, it's all lurk or muta. Terran has much more options to do well vs Z throughout the whole game. This also accounts for the T>Z imbalance IMO.
Have you forgotten this game? Behold the 5 Mutalisk/5 Hydralisk attack vs. Terran. + Show Spoiler +Show nested quote + LRM)TechnicS wrote: I imagine that in Korea if the map is made by Rose.of.Dream and it looks symmetrical, everyone instantly believes it's balanced and it's great while in reality there's a good chance it's not. A proof of that is how Wind and Cloud had significantly different mining rates for zerg in main bases. If a Zerg spawned top left and played vs another zerg on bottom right, he has to have bo advantage to be even with his opponent. Maybe he was negligent in just this map, but maybe not.
So if the most prominent korean mapmaker Rose.of.Dream hasn't put the efforts to find out how to position mineral patches in the main base to not have visible imbalances, what should we expect about the supposed more sophisticated stuff?
The case is different abroad though as we have Freaklingzerg who's deeply knowledged, willing to learn more, creative and actually puts a lot of work into his maps.
That's a very interesting point. It seems because he was the creator of Fighting Spirit, people automatically trust that his other maps are just as good. Would it be possible for Freakling to present his maps so that they can be considered for future starleagues? It would be a shame if all his hard work went unnoticed. Sincerely, Shalashaska_123
Yes, all race can airstack, but the whole ZvT matchup revolves around the mutastack. No other matchup race is as influenced by that IMO.
Also the numbers that DarkNetHunter pointed to (LegalLord's article) suggest that it's T>Z (54%). As just about everyone seemingly sees that it's T>Z. If you see absolutely no T>Z imbalance then I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
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On October 26 2016 17:44 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2016 07:41 LRM)TechnicS wrote: On the other hand - have you ever seen a pro Z to win consistently in pro ZvT games with 2/3/4 hatch ling/hydra busts? Kwanro Also don't make me fly back to Sofia and steal your kidneys for all this balance whine Dimitar, I swear I'll do it
No balance whine, sir. It's T>Z. I've played enough through the pain that match up is. I can discuss it here, it's relevant. As for the stealing of body parts - when I get that money from that guy, I will pay you to not steal my kidneys, but to host an awesome, hopefully BW:HD, tournament. Deal?
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On October 26 2016 07:48 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Zerg has to has just about enough to survive, if he doesn't - he is being taken out of the game early, if he overdefends - he is taken out of the game later.
This is true. ZvT is really an edge of a knife for Zerg. Terran can bunker rush and if it fails continue as if nothing happened, he can sunken break and if Zerg is 3 seconds late it is over (and Z can almost never see the number of rax), if the Zerg misses a dropship (also very difficult to spot on route in midgame) it could be curtains as well. While the Zerg has no realistic way to kill Terran fast. Heck, not even to scout him (unlike PvZ). Most Zerg wins lately are unhampered economy and 4 gas Ultraling on Terrans 4th and 5th.
In comparison to PvZ, it is also very difficult for P to kill Zerg early (2 gate, which is risky, or a misread by Z of a +1speed attack on the 3rd when awaiting Starport, could kind of qualify) - but - it is also difficult for Z to kill P early, save Hydra busts (the only case for scouting is problematic for P) or rare ling break-ins.
All in all, I've always had a feeling that even the best Ps can easily fall to decent Zs or, a little less easily, but still it's not uncommon, to decent Ts, best Zs can very easily fall to decent Ts and can fall to decent Ps but best Terrans cannot fall easily to anything and can recover from situations where a Z or P would already be out of his booth. In the long run, helps a lot to win tournaments and become the greatest ever.
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