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On May 10 2015 21:02 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 20:54 Big J wrote:On May 10 2015 20:34 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On May 10 2015 19:08 xyzz wrote:On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz "There are tons of ways to break it, I just won't name any of them because I can't think of anything reliable". Are people seriously defending overpowered units in an early beta just so they can get a couple of free wins in unranked games? That's just pathetic. Uhh if your opponent actually goes over 3 bases you can easily outmanouvre him if you are the better player. Also Nydus and broodlords are a really viable option vs lurker players. Actually Ultra armies can also be extremely powerful at cleaning up small amounts of lurkers. But I guess it's too hard for people like you to come up with stuff to try and break them. Turtleling is really not that effective if you actually want more then 3/4 bases I think I have only lost a single ZvZ in which I was allowed to safely go mutalisks against an opponent who opened ground, because from there I can just go lurkers and win. People have gotten fairly creative, but air control + lurkers is pretty good a denying everything. I think the overpoweredness of the lurker will push everyone into mutalisk openings, so the matchup will go to shit if blizzard doesn't patch it, because it will be back to muta wars everygame. Though that is as much a problem with the mutalisk, as with the lurker I guess. Yeah but even in hots opening mutas into SH was extremely strong in that case. It was an exotic strategy that we saw a handful of times, and had a hard time dealing with opponents timings. Apart from shitmaps like Deadwing where you could hold 3bases and acquire a 4th with swarm hosts. On other maps, your opponent could just take more bases, go swarm hosts himself and laugh in your face.
But in pro games everyone opened roach anyway, because roach timings are actually really strong and hard to not take damage from as mutalisk player. This is not the main reason why people don't open mutas as much as they go plain roach. Defending those roach timings isn't that hard (and should be identified by your zergling/baneling play) if you just want to commit to spines, but even if they don't do any timing on you mutalisk play isn't that strong, unless you can really catch an opponent offguard.
Anyway there is no Metagame and no really good players are playing the beta, it's too early to say mutas into lurkers can't be punished. People not having enough information for something justifies both, the not-brokenness as well as the brokenness of a situation so it is a worthless argument.
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On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz
Honestly this is more of a problem with the fact that Zerg *still* doesn't have any openings which are even remotely threatening to a wall-off / turtle. I thought Ravager was going to fix this.
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On May 11 2015 00:42 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz Honestly this is more of a problem with the fact that Zerg *still* doesn't have any openings which are even remotely threatening to a wall-off / turtle. I thought Ravager was going to fix this. I used to think the same way but imo if walling is not that effective, the early game may get too snowball heavy.
Zerg has the most flexible production but also the most limited aggressive opening, which is funny in a way
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On May 11 2015 00:42 Merkmerk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz Honestly this is more of a problem with the fact that Zerg *still* doesn't have any openings which are even remotely threatening to a wall-off / turtle. I thought Ravager was going to fix this. Ravager did fix that, at least until they overnerfed it and it is now bigger, expensive and weaker(!?) Roach...
I'll be honest, I liked the Ravager a lot, but if you think about it in the early game you have Roach burrow movement now that can deal with Force Fields just fine if you have enough Roaches, and in the mid game there are Lurkers so I don't know if Force Fields are that big of a deal anymore. I wouldn't mind if Ravager is completely redesigned to a specific role which supports early aggression or something like that.
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I don't get how to beat them int he current state, thinking they must be patched eventually. Lost a 7 base Protoss vs 4 base Zerg, fully mining, maxed out armies, couldn't touch the lurkers (more like 2 base zerg vs 5 base protoss given our mains and nats were mined out). Should have tried carriers but I had used all my gas already trying HT/Colo/Immortal/Archon/Disrupters on them (in a single maxed army).
(lots of things are broken right now though, for example adepts vs T seem insanely brokenly strong. Not even sure you can play bio as adepts SHRED through bio and pick any engagement they want with their ability).
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On May 11 2015 03:19 FabledIntegral wrote: I don't get how to beat them int he current state, thinking they must be patched eventually. Lost a 7 base Protoss vs 4 base Zerg, fully mining, maxed out armies, couldn't touch the lurkers (more like 2 base zerg vs 5 base protoss given our mains and nats were mined out). Should have tried carriers but I had used all my gas already trying HT/Colo/Immortal/Archon/Disrupters on them (in a single maxed army).
(lots of things are broken right now though, for example adepts vs T seem insanely brokenly strong. Not even sure you can play bio as adepts SHRED through bio and pick any engagement they want with their ability).
Lurkers probably will be ever so slightly toned down, but let's be honest here, the reason that Protoss is having a hard time (hardly against Lurkers) is because Gateway still has not been reformulated to allow smaller packs of low tier units to actively be on the map. I would way rather buff Protoss then nerf units that are actually good. Let's at least nerf the Cyclone and give the Disruptor a few (or alot) of tweaks and let people adapt to Lurker based strategies.
On a related note, not sure how Skytoss armies wouldn't just totally rofl stomp Lurker comps. Hydras are useless once enough Voids and Templar are out, Infestors are STILL bad, and Corruptors got an anti-ground buff, the only AA that Zerg got is the laughably broken Irradiate and that is definitely going to be tuned down, like alot.
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On May 11 2015 04:33 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 03:19 FabledIntegral wrote: I don't get how to beat them int he current state, thinking they must be patched eventually. Lost a 7 base Protoss vs 4 base Zerg, fully mining, maxed out armies, couldn't touch the lurkers (more like 2 base zerg vs 5 base protoss given our mains and nats were mined out). Should have tried carriers but I had used all my gas already trying HT/Colo/Immortal/Archon/Disrupters on them (in a single maxed army).
(lots of things are broken right now though, for example adepts vs T seem insanely brokenly strong. Not even sure you can play bio as adepts SHRED through bio and pick any engagement they want with their ability). Lurkers probably will be ever so slightly toned down, but let's be honest here, the reason that Protoss is having a hard time (hardly against Lurkers) is because Gateway still has not been reformulated to allow smaller packs of low tier units to actively be on the map. I would way rather buff Protoss then nerf units that are actually good. Let's at least nerf the Cyclone and give the Disruptor a few (or alot) of tweaks and let people adapt to Lurker based strategies. On a related note, not sure how Skytoss armies wouldn't just totally rofl stomp Lurker comps. Hydras are useless once enough Voids and Templar are out, Infestors are STILL bad, and Corruptors got an anti-ground buff, the only AA that Zerg got is the laughably broken Irradiate and that is definitely going to be tuned down, like alot.
Ever so slightly? I have yet to win a single PvZ against lurkers. Just lost another with an insane advantage. Literally, they are so ridiculously cost efficient, even toned down "ever so slightly" they are arguably the most OP unit in the entire beta right now. They are far more OP than cyclones.
Skytoss isn't as strong because gas constraints are notably worse. Of course, as Z you have to scout it, and would stop building lots of lurkers. However, skytoss is hard to take bases in the first place, and your limited gas income makes it really hard to start up like a normal skytoss build in HOTS.
Carriers are definitely better than before, but that viper buff IS good vs skytoss. While I still won my game in HOTS, I was very ahead. 4 vipers came in and dropped 4 of those bombs and every shield on all carriers were down (i instantly split). It isn't a hard counter but will likely do something.
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Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air.
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On May 11 2015 06:17 Merkmerk wrote: Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air.
No one thinks you can A-move them. It's "how do you actually kill them." I will accept Skytoss is good vs lurker strats but if you go into skytoss they can just do other strats, and that's an entirely different matter. You have to commit to skytoss before seeing lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what the answer is?
Colossi were TERRIBLE vs the lurkers, and outranged even with Thermal lance (whcih is reduced). Disrupters are not even a little cost efficient vs them, as one it doesn't one shot them and they are typically spread out. Storm is not a good counter, although it helps. Everything else MELTS. Zealot trick from BW isn't as good because chargelots are slower than speedlots were.
Goon/templar in BW were awesome vs lurkers. Just frustrating and not quite fun is the issue. At least breaking siege tank lines and lurker lines in BW were fun as P.
EDIT: Forgot Tempests even existed, I would really hate the playstyle if this unit became the counter to lurkers, but alas I'm thinking it could work.
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I guess you are supposed to clear the path with Disruptors/Psi Storm and then kill the Lurkers with Blink Stalkers and Immortals. You can always blink few Stalkers in to make them waste their attacks with not-so-great attack speed against individual Stalkers.
Just thinking of ways you can try to deal with them right now. Immortals are probably a ton better than Colossi.
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Lol k fine. Then lets call lotv the upgraded brood war.
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On May 11 2015 07:15 Ramiz1989 wrote: I guess you are supposed to clear the path with Disruptors/Psi Storm and then kill the Lurkers with Blink Stalkers and Immortals. You can always blink few Stalkers in to make them waste their attacks with not-so-great attack speed against individual Stalkers.
Just thinking of ways you can try to deal with them right now. Immortals are probably a ton better than Colossi.
Problem is you can't really use HT or Disrupters due to the range. Sure, you can send two disrupters in and kill two lurkers (one disrupter leaves a lurker injured), but then you lose two disrupters... which are far more expensive.
HT don't have the range to storm them.
Lurkers beat Stalkers in cost efficiency as well...
I had immortals in my composition but the new barrier is shit, only absorbs a single lurker spine volley from the lurkers. Near worthless. Tried them regardless with archons tanking the front but got mauled.
I actually asked the Zergs I played against if they were losing to Protoss at all, I only had a single Zerg state "Well I lost to CJ_Hero's adept rush micro". All the Zergs I've talked with have stated they pretty much aren't losing to P right now... just as T is pretty much always losing to P.
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On May 11 2015 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 06:17 Merkmerk wrote: Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air. No one thinks you can A-move them. It's "how do you actually kill them." I will accept Skytoss is good vs lurker strats but if you go into skytoss they can just do other strats, and that's an entirely different matter. You have to commit to skytoss before seeing lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what the answer is? Colossi were TERRIBLE vs the lurkers, and outranged even with Thermal lance (whcih is reduced). Disrupters are not even a little cost efficient vs them, as one it doesn't one shot them and they are typically spread out. Storm is not a good counter, although it helps. Everything else MELTS. Zealot trick from BW isn't as good because chargelots are slower than speedlots were. Goon/templar in BW were awesome vs lurkers. Just frustrating and not quite fun is the issue. At least breaking siege tank lines and lurker lines in BW were fun as P. EDIT: Forgot Tempests even existed, I would really hate the playstyle if this unit became the counter to lurkers, but alas I'm thinking it could work.
Yes I say "slightly tuned down" because not everything that is strong needs a nerf, literally half the time it's an issue of practice and figuring it out. Also something to note, if you got in from the top 20% invite then unless your at the top 2% and master league or GM and struggling then honestly it's because your a lower level player and not because Lurkers are OP. Zero insult in that by the way, I'm top diamond and Disruptor/Prism drops ruin my life because I'm just terrible where as someone as good as say even Kane or Vibe would probably say Disruptors suck shit at the higher level because if your at least GM or high masters then your micro is good enough to nullify it.
And it looks like you answered your own question, look to BW to fight a BW unit, Storm and Dragoons with Reaver support was how it was done, and I don't know why you would hate that play style if that came to be the case, it's a battle of pure micro and unit control on both P and Z and Templars are the best spell caster in the game at least at this point. You have to remember that the tech path to Lurkers is long, easily scouted and isn't exactly cheap gas wise. You should have more then adequate time to prepare. I'm curious if Immortal/Templar/Archon comps would be effective. Immortals and Archons to soak up the shots and storm to rofl stomp.
Lurkers probably are a bit OP at the moment but do we really want them to get the Ravager treatment? Those nerfs obviously need to be offset or why bother even putting a new unit in the damn game if your just going to nerf it into uselessness. I don't want to see any unit from any race in the Beta get nerfed to oblivion because it's strong and people don't like playing against things that are unfamiliar and beat them.
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there is no effective way a ground Protoss army can fight a Zerg army with Lurker support, you have to go air if you want to have a chance in the late game, if you want to use ground units, you have to kill the zerg before lurkers.
the lurker work just like the old colossus in big fights, adding stupid amounts of splash dmg to your army, with the benefit that they can also stand their ground when left outside your zerg deathball unlike colossus for protoss.
I think the colossus should be reworked into a siege unit for protoss, like the lurker/siege tank.
with the new viper ability (Air splash dmg), and the possibly new terran unit (air unit with AtA splash dmg) The tempest should be reworked to fight mass air units, this way, every race can reliably fight off stupid amounts of air units that requires no micro and ignores terrain.
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On May 11 2015 09:16 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 06:17 Merkmerk wrote: Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air. No one thinks you can A-move them. It's "how do you actually kill them." I will accept Skytoss is good vs lurker strats but if you go into skytoss they can just do other strats, and that's an entirely different matter. You have to commit to skytoss before seeing lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what the answer is? Colossi were TERRIBLE vs the lurkers, and outranged even with Thermal lance (whcih is reduced). Disrupters are not even a little cost efficient vs them, as one it doesn't one shot them and they are typically spread out. Storm is not a good counter, although it helps. Everything else MELTS. Zealot trick from BW isn't as good because chargelots are slower than speedlots were. Goon/templar in BW were awesome vs lurkers. Just frustrating and not quite fun is the issue. At least breaking siege tank lines and lurker lines in BW were fun as P. EDIT: Forgot Tempests even existed, I would really hate the playstyle if this unit became the counter to lurkers, but alas I'm thinking it could work. Yes I say "slightly tuned down" because not everything that is strong needs a nerf, literally half the time it's an issue of practice and figuring it out. Also something to note, if you got in from the top 20% invite then unless your at the top 2% and master league or GM and struggling then honestly it's because your a lower level player and not because Lurkers are OP. Zero insult in that by the way, I'm top diamond and Disruptor/Prism drops ruin my life because I'm just terrible where as someone as good as say even Kane or Vibe would probably say Disruptors suck shit at the higher level because if your at least GM or high masters then your micro is good enough to nullify it. And it looks like you answered your own question, look to BW to fight a BW unit, Storm and Dragoons with Reaver support was how it was done, and I don't know why you would hate that play style if that came to be the case, it's a battle of pure micro and unit control on both P and Z and Templars are the best spell caster in the game at least at this point. You have to remember that the tech path to Lurkers is long, easily scouted and isn't exactly cheap gas wise. You should have more then adequate time to prepare. I'm curious if Immortal/Templar/Archon comps would be effective. Immortals and Archons to soak up the shots and storm to rofl stomp. Lurkers probably are a bit OP at the moment but do we really want them to get the Ravager treatment? Those nerfs obviously need to be offset or why bother even putting a new unit in the damn game if your just going to nerf it into uselessness. I don't want to see any unit from any race in the Beta get nerfed to oblivion because it's strong and people don't like playing against things that are unfamiliar and beat them.
I'm in fact GM on NA =/.
And I was saying it was in fact fun in BW, not sure if I didn't word it well.
Immortal/Templar/Archon/Colossi is exactly what I did, and they got minced. Lurkers have too much range. As mentioned, had like 7 base to 4 base, had enough money to throw a lot of shit.
The only Zergs I beat today did not go lurkers. Not kidding. Managed to finish it perfect vs Terran though because of adepts.
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On May 11 2015 11:23 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 09:16 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 11 2015 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 06:17 Merkmerk wrote: Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air. No one thinks you can A-move them. It's "how do you actually kill them." I will accept Skytoss is good vs lurker strats but if you go into skytoss they can just do other strats, and that's an entirely different matter. You have to commit to skytoss before seeing lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what the answer is? Colossi were TERRIBLE vs the lurkers, and outranged even with Thermal lance (whcih is reduced). Disrupters are not even a little cost efficient vs them, as one it doesn't one shot them and they are typically spread out. Storm is not a good counter, although it helps. Everything else MELTS. Zealot trick from BW isn't as good because chargelots are slower than speedlots were. Goon/templar in BW were awesome vs lurkers. Just frustrating and not quite fun is the issue. At least breaking siege tank lines and lurker lines in BW were fun as P. EDIT: Forgot Tempests even existed, I would really hate the playstyle if this unit became the counter to lurkers, but alas I'm thinking it could work. Yes I say "slightly tuned down" because not everything that is strong needs a nerf, literally half the time it's an issue of practice and figuring it out. Also something to note, if you got in from the top 20% invite then unless your at the top 2% and master league or GM and struggling then honestly it's because your a lower level player and not because Lurkers are OP. Zero insult in that by the way, I'm top diamond and Disruptor/Prism drops ruin my life because I'm just terrible where as someone as good as say even Kane or Vibe would probably say Disruptors suck shit at the higher level because if your at least GM or high masters then your micro is good enough to nullify it. And it looks like you answered your own question, look to BW to fight a BW unit, Storm and Dragoons with Reaver support was how it was done, and I don't know why you would hate that play style if that came to be the case, it's a battle of pure micro and unit control on both P and Z and Templars are the best spell caster in the game at least at this point. You have to remember that the tech path to Lurkers is long, easily scouted and isn't exactly cheap gas wise. You should have more then adequate time to prepare. I'm curious if Immortal/Templar/Archon comps would be effective. Immortals and Archons to soak up the shots and storm to rofl stomp. Lurkers probably are a bit OP at the moment but do we really want them to get the Ravager treatment? Those nerfs obviously need to be offset or why bother even putting a new unit in the damn game if your just going to nerf it into uselessness. I don't want to see any unit from any race in the Beta get nerfed to oblivion because it's strong and people don't like playing against things that are unfamiliar and beat them. I'm in fact GM on NA =/. And I was saying it was in fact fun in BW, not sure if I didn't word it well. Immortal/Templar/Archon/Colossi is exactly what I did, and they got minced. Lurkers have too much range. As mentioned, had like 7 base to 4 base, had enough money to throw a lot of shit. The only Zergs I beat today did not go lurkers. Not kidding. Managed to finish it perfect vs Terran though because of adepts.
Ok well I feel tremendously stupid for labeling you low level so I apologize and debase myself, I respect an American that is a good Terran player lol I recognize son x]
To be fair though I did admit that people at your level have relevant opinions on balance <3
Back to topic, perhaps 7 range? I mean the Roach range buff made the unit go from underpowered to a staple unit so it has potential maybe?
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On May 11 2015 12:01 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 11:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 09:16 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 11 2015 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 06:17 Merkmerk wrote: Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air. No one thinks you can A-move them. It's "how do you actually kill them." I will accept Skytoss is good vs lurker strats but if you go into skytoss they can just do other strats, and that's an entirely different matter. You have to commit to skytoss before seeing lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what the answer is? Colossi were TERRIBLE vs the lurkers, and outranged even with Thermal lance (whcih is reduced). Disrupters are not even a little cost efficient vs them, as one it doesn't one shot them and they are typically spread out. Storm is not a good counter, although it helps. Everything else MELTS. Zealot trick from BW isn't as good because chargelots are slower than speedlots were. Goon/templar in BW were awesome vs lurkers. Just frustrating and not quite fun is the issue. At least breaking siege tank lines and lurker lines in BW were fun as P. EDIT: Forgot Tempests even existed, I would really hate the playstyle if this unit became the counter to lurkers, but alas I'm thinking it could work. Yes I say "slightly tuned down" because not everything that is strong needs a nerf, literally half the time it's an issue of practice and figuring it out. Also something to note, if you got in from the top 20% invite then unless your at the top 2% and master league or GM and struggling then honestly it's because your a lower level player and not because Lurkers are OP. Zero insult in that by the way, I'm top diamond and Disruptor/Prism drops ruin my life because I'm just terrible where as someone as good as say even Kane or Vibe would probably say Disruptors suck shit at the higher level because if your at least GM or high masters then your micro is good enough to nullify it. And it looks like you answered your own question, look to BW to fight a BW unit, Storm and Dragoons with Reaver support was how it was done, and I don't know why you would hate that play style if that came to be the case, it's a battle of pure micro and unit control on both P and Z and Templars are the best spell caster in the game at least at this point. You have to remember that the tech path to Lurkers is long, easily scouted and isn't exactly cheap gas wise. You should have more then adequate time to prepare. I'm curious if Immortal/Templar/Archon comps would be effective. Immortals and Archons to soak up the shots and storm to rofl stomp. Lurkers probably are a bit OP at the moment but do we really want them to get the Ravager treatment? Those nerfs obviously need to be offset or why bother even putting a new unit in the damn game if your just going to nerf it into uselessness. I don't want to see any unit from any race in the Beta get nerfed to oblivion because it's strong and people don't like playing against things that are unfamiliar and beat them. I'm in fact GM on NA =/. And I was saying it was in fact fun in BW, not sure if I didn't word it well. Immortal/Templar/Archon/Colossi is exactly what I did, and they got minced. Lurkers have too much range. As mentioned, had like 7 base to 4 base, had enough money to throw a lot of shit. The only Zergs I beat today did not go lurkers. Not kidding. Managed to finish it perfect vs Terran though because of adepts. Ok well I feel tremendously stupid for labeling you low level so I apologize and debase myself, I respect an American that is a good Terran player lol I recognize son x] To be fair though I did admit that people at your level have relevant opinions on balance <3 Back to topic, perhaps 7 range? I mean the Roach range buff made the unit go from underpowered to a staple unit so it has potential maybe?
Perhaps somehow having "siege range" being an upgrade again, available at the Lair, where it gets it's 9 siege range but decreases the rate of fire by 50%. So you pick between shorter range, fast dmg, or longer range, less dmg.
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On May 11 2015 12:50 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:01 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 11 2015 11:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 09:16 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 11 2015 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 06:17 Merkmerk wrote: Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air. No one thinks you can A-move them. It's "how do you actually kill them." I will accept Skytoss is good vs lurker strats but if you go into skytoss they can just do other strats, and that's an entirely different matter. You have to commit to skytoss before seeing lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what the answer is? Colossi were TERRIBLE vs the lurkers, and outranged even with Thermal lance (whcih is reduced). Disrupters are not even a little cost efficient vs them, as one it doesn't one shot them and they are typically spread out. Storm is not a good counter, although it helps. Everything else MELTS. Zealot trick from BW isn't as good because chargelots are slower than speedlots were. Goon/templar in BW were awesome vs lurkers. Just frustrating and not quite fun is the issue. At least breaking siege tank lines and lurker lines in BW were fun as P. EDIT: Forgot Tempests even existed, I would really hate the playstyle if this unit became the counter to lurkers, but alas I'm thinking it could work. Yes I say "slightly tuned down" because not everything that is strong needs a nerf, literally half the time it's an issue of practice and figuring it out. Also something to note, if you got in from the top 20% invite then unless your at the top 2% and master league or GM and struggling then honestly it's because your a lower level player and not because Lurkers are OP. Zero insult in that by the way, I'm top diamond and Disruptor/Prism drops ruin my life because I'm just terrible where as someone as good as say even Kane or Vibe would probably say Disruptors suck shit at the higher level because if your at least GM or high masters then your micro is good enough to nullify it. And it looks like you answered your own question, look to BW to fight a BW unit, Storm and Dragoons with Reaver support was how it was done, and I don't know why you would hate that play style if that came to be the case, it's a battle of pure micro and unit control on both P and Z and Templars are the best spell caster in the game at least at this point. You have to remember that the tech path to Lurkers is long, easily scouted and isn't exactly cheap gas wise. You should have more then adequate time to prepare. I'm curious if Immortal/Templar/Archon comps would be effective. Immortals and Archons to soak up the shots and storm to rofl stomp. Lurkers probably are a bit OP at the moment but do we really want them to get the Ravager treatment? Those nerfs obviously need to be offset or why bother even putting a new unit in the damn game if your just going to nerf it into uselessness. I don't want to see any unit from any race in the Beta get nerfed to oblivion because it's strong and people don't like playing against things that are unfamiliar and beat them. I'm in fact GM on NA =/. And I was saying it was in fact fun in BW, not sure if I didn't word it well. Immortal/Templar/Archon/Colossi is exactly what I did, and they got minced. Lurkers have too much range. As mentioned, had like 7 base to 4 base, had enough money to throw a lot of shit. The only Zergs I beat today did not go lurkers. Not kidding. Managed to finish it perfect vs Terran though because of adepts. Ok well I feel tremendously stupid for labeling you low level so I apologize and debase myself, I respect an American that is a good Terran player lol I recognize son x] To be fair though I did admit that people at your level have relevant opinions on balance <3 Back to topic, perhaps 7 range? I mean the Roach range buff made the unit go from underpowered to a staple unit so it has potential maybe? Perhaps somehow having "siege range" being an upgrade again, available at the Lair, where it gets it's 9 siege range but decreases the rate of fire by 50%. So you pick between shorter range, fast dmg, or longer range, less dmg.
Hmm, good question honestly. I think it's more about what role should the Lurker really be relegated to? Longer range probably benefits turtling a bit more where as shorter range might encourage aggressive Lurker re positioning?
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On May 11 2015 12:56 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2015 12:50 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 12:01 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 11 2015 11:23 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 09:16 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 11 2015 06:31 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 11 2015 06:17 Merkmerk wrote: Carriers basically end Zerg once you hit a certain number.
Lurkers can't be a-moved by gateway units. Protoss has to go for an early timing or early air. No one thinks you can A-move them. It's "how do you actually kill them." I will accept Skytoss is good vs lurker strats but if you go into skytoss they can just do other strats, and that's an entirely different matter. You have to commit to skytoss before seeing lurkers, so I'm not quite sure what the answer is? Colossi were TERRIBLE vs the lurkers, and outranged even with Thermal lance (whcih is reduced). Disrupters are not even a little cost efficient vs them, as one it doesn't one shot them and they are typically spread out. Storm is not a good counter, although it helps. Everything else MELTS. Zealot trick from BW isn't as good because chargelots are slower than speedlots were. Goon/templar in BW were awesome vs lurkers. Just frustrating and not quite fun is the issue. At least breaking siege tank lines and lurker lines in BW were fun as P. EDIT: Forgot Tempests even existed, I would really hate the playstyle if this unit became the counter to lurkers, but alas I'm thinking it could work. Yes I say "slightly tuned down" because not everything that is strong needs a nerf, literally half the time it's an issue of practice and figuring it out. Also something to note, if you got in from the top 20% invite then unless your at the top 2% and master league or GM and struggling then honestly it's because your a lower level player and not because Lurkers are OP. Zero insult in that by the way, I'm top diamond and Disruptor/Prism drops ruin my life because I'm just terrible where as someone as good as say even Kane or Vibe would probably say Disruptors suck shit at the higher level because if your at least GM or high masters then your micro is good enough to nullify it. And it looks like you answered your own question, look to BW to fight a BW unit, Storm and Dragoons with Reaver support was how it was done, and I don't know why you would hate that play style if that came to be the case, it's a battle of pure micro and unit control on both P and Z and Templars are the best spell caster in the game at least at this point. You have to remember that the tech path to Lurkers is long, easily scouted and isn't exactly cheap gas wise. You should have more then adequate time to prepare. I'm curious if Immortal/Templar/Archon comps would be effective. Immortals and Archons to soak up the shots and storm to rofl stomp. Lurkers probably are a bit OP at the moment but do we really want them to get the Ravager treatment? Those nerfs obviously need to be offset or why bother even putting a new unit in the damn game if your just going to nerf it into uselessness. I don't want to see any unit from any race in the Beta get nerfed to oblivion because it's strong and people don't like playing against things that are unfamiliar and beat them. I'm in fact GM on NA =/. And I was saying it was in fact fun in BW, not sure if I didn't word it well. Immortal/Templar/Archon/Colossi is exactly what I did, and they got minced. Lurkers have too much range. As mentioned, had like 7 base to 4 base, had enough money to throw a lot of shit. The only Zergs I beat today did not go lurkers. Not kidding. Managed to finish it perfect vs Terran though because of adepts. Ok well I feel tremendously stupid for labeling you low level so I apologize and debase myself, I respect an American that is a good Terran player lol I recognize son x] To be fair though I did admit that people at your level have relevant opinions on balance <3 Back to topic, perhaps 7 range? I mean the Roach range buff made the unit go from underpowered to a staple unit so it has potential maybe? Perhaps somehow having "siege range" being an upgrade again, available at the Lair, where it gets it's 9 siege range but decreases the rate of fire by 50%. So you pick between shorter range, fast dmg, or longer range, less dmg. Hmm, good question honestly. I think it's more about what role should the Lurker really be relegated to? Longer range probably benefits turtling a bit more where as shorter range might encourage aggressive Lurker re positioning?
Which is why I was thinking the extra range could have a longer cooldown time - easier to break it.
Perhaps have it so in order to switch between each attack, you need to unburrow and reburrow. Increase burrow time as well for the "siege" lurker.
Just some thoughts. It's clear it can't stay how it is, even this early on.
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My issue with the lurker is separate from game balance. They could probably balance the lurker by reducing its damage or attackspeed by a large flat number, so that it doesn't counter every zerg and protoss ground unit in the game. However, this would not make it any more interesting.
IMO: It's boring to play Zerg with long-range area-denial units. Just look at the past few years of HotS Swarm Hosts. The Lurker at least has to get within 9 range to attack, but it still heavily favors defensive play and immobility. Right now it is horrifically overpowered, but if it was nerfed to the point of "balanced", the Lurker would still be strong on defense but it would be useless for attacking.
If nothing else, balancing the Lurker at 6 range (and buffing it so that it is useful) would make it less purely defensive than a 9-range Lurker.
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