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Anyone who's gotten into a ZvZ Lurker stalemate in LotV knows that it can almost feel like a Terran siege tank war, with big stationary armies that are completely unable to attack into each other.
Lurkers can be left stationary because with 9 range, there's hardly a reason to move them. This completely loses a big part of what was cool about lurkers in Brood War: having to move and burrow lurkers during a fight. (usually assisted by Dark Swarm) You didn't "siege up" lurkers and use them as a siege-tank zone-denial, you had to move them with your ling/hydra and burrow them right next to the enemy.
***** Now, from what we saw in LotV when the 9-range required an upgrade, 6-range lurkers are not terribly useful in SC2. Unlike in Brood War, ranged units in SC2 usually have 6 range. This allows them to attack-move into 6-range lurkers without taking much damage. That sucks for Lurkers, right?
But wait, being weaker on defense might be a good thing. After all, ground units should stand some nonzero chance of successfully attacking into Lurkers. What we need to do is buff the Lurker's offensive abilities to offset a weaker defensive utility.
******** I would be interested to see an *offensive* lurker buff like this: - Lurkers gain +100% attackspeed for 2.5 seconds after Burrowing.
This would make Lurkers quite strong when used in the SC1 style of moving them and burrowing right next to your opponent, while making them much weaker on defense.
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I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect.
I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all.
So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san!
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I feel the lurker has the potential to be so much more than just a bw-lurker-clone with extra range.
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I feel Lurker is a great unit in all matchups and brings another layer to the XvZ battles; but need a bit of tweaking. 8 range instead of 9 would go a long way IMO and wouldn't feel as much of a siege tank than it feels now. This is probably the only change i'd do right now because it so early and I think it's OK to have to play around a strong unit and not just with direct counters.
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I think the concept of the lurker is a great for zerg. It gives zerg the option to play defensive and use positioning to compensate for lack of army supply. It's not replacing the close-combat units rather its an alternative/supplement and thus will create more strategic depth. I think in the end it comes down to if you prefer action over strategy/decision making whether you like the lurker or not. Me personally i enjoy watching starcraft but i mostly watch in order to improve my own play. So watching a game of ZvT in the current state is pretty useless for me since i learn nothing from seeing the mechanically superior player succeed (not counting in the generic cheese/all-ins). As far as zvz goes we have to wait and watch if it comes the lurker vs lurker stalemates. I don't think there will be any stalemates close to what the swarmhost did in the other matchups.
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Maybe it should be 6 range but have an upgrade giving it a speed increase for a few seconds after unburrowing so that you can move it more easily in a fight?
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I don't like Lurkers starting with 9 range, but I could maybe see it working as a Hive upgrade as originally intended.
I think they should go back to 6 range, but make the lurker more accessible with added durability.
1) The Hydralisk should be moved to hatchery and down to 1 supply with the stats nerfed accordingly. This ensures a less cumbersome tech path.
2) For durability: - Lurkers now biological only (ensures only archons have bonus damage against them) - +1 armor while burrowed only (much better vs the new marauders at range 6)
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I dislike your suggestion, but I like FrostedMiniWheat's rather severe redesign, in conjunction with a bunch of other ones, of course. 1-supply Hydras are a good idea in the long run.
ZvZ can indeed get a little bit trench warfarey, but I'd like to see the Ravager more greatly empowered to counter Lurkers. Hell, if they just removed their auto-attack and very slightly bumped up the range and splash of corrosive bile, it could be fantastic for executing burrowed Lurkers.
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Lurkers are the same they were in BW but retuned a bit up because they are more expensive, cost 1 more supply, and are slower.
They have been rebalanced to be more like a siege unit having a bit more damage and HP than on BW. If you decrease the HP back to to BW levels, it's much weaker defensively.
Also, the Ravager rework is needed. Ravager is intended to break lurkers. And being as they were on Blizzcon they should work.
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You can still Blinding Cloud or Abduct the Lurkers in ZvZ, can't you? I think that makes Lurkers more attackable. I don't say it is easy to attack a well-spread Lurker comp, but maybe it is possible. Also, there are Brood Lords as well. Now these solutions seem like work-arounds, but they may still work.
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I like the lurker as it is. It may not be the most "zergy" unit but it feels good to have a new unit that is not gimmicky (unlike every other new unit and a lot of older units *cough*MSC*cough*)
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I think attack speed could be downed a little bit. The HP could be nerfed. Range doesn't have to be 9, even 8 would outrange static Ds if that's the goal. Just tweak it and test it. The unit concept is fine and fun, but it is just too good at what it should do but there could be a sweet spot.
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I love playing with and against it. I love everything in Zerg LoTV to be honest, from the new economy to the two new units, it makes the game so much better. Sure there is some tweaking to be done, but it looks to be in a good place game-design wise. I like protoss too, I am much more concerned about terran right now.
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Ther Lurker's the most fun new unit for me, much better than cyclone / ravager / adept (haven't seen / used disrupter yet interestingly). Although sometimes they feel a bit like higher damage 3 supply Collosi that vikings can't attack xD
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The thing is that lotv isn't bw. We don't want another bw with just better graphics...
Wrong for blizzard to bring back the old unit.
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On May 07 2015 22:58 TimKim0713 wrote: The thing is that lotv isn't bw. We don't want another bw with just better graphics...
Wrong for blizzard to bring back the old unit. It's not wrong if that unit is upgrading the game.
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I haven't played lotv but I do feel that 6 range would make them useless in anything besides zvz. They would need the HP of an ultralisk to be able to walk up to a bio ball of stimmed marines and marauders without getting focus fired and killed in 0.5 seconds. The same principle is likely to be true against P not to mention mech, you want to run up to sieged tanks and burrow next to them? Sounds like it wont work so well in sc2.
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On May 07 2015 22:58 TimKim0713 wrote: The thing is that lotv isn't bw. We don't want another bw with just better graphics...
Wrong for blizzard to bring back the old unit.
The royal we?
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On May 07 2015 22:58 TimKim0713 wrote: The thing is that lotv isn't bw. We don't want another bw with just better graphics...
Wrong for blizzard to bring back the old unit. Don't group me together with that we >.>
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On May 07 2015 19:03 Vanadiel wrote: I love playing with and against it. I love everything in Zerg LoTV to be honest, from the new economy to the two new units, it makes the game so much better. Sure there is some tweaking to be done, but it looks to be in a good place game-design wise. I like protoss too, I am much more concerned about terran right now.
I can understand that you love Zerg in LotV...
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