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On May 04 2015 16:46 Gwavajuice wrote:To me atm the problem is more the lack of good terran casting korean competitions, Moonglade has incredible knowledge about zergs ofc, tastosis is still very good on protoss, btu when in comes to analysing a terran game, the skill goes down. And when it's TvT... time to switch to O'gaming to hear Funka cast
That's exactly how I feel. Especially Wolf and Valdez aren't a good combo in a terran MU.
In general, I don't care too much if they're biased. I want to listen to guys with good game knowledge and entertaining skills.
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Nah, I'm not gonna play your game OP.
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I don't like race bias but the example you bring are in my opinion not really race bias.
You bring up apollo for being biased towards terran? Recently Apollo has been a zerg or a random player, why would be biased towards terrans?
The map moonglade was talking about, is the win percent skewed towards terran in tvz? Are there any foundation to his claim? You don't know if its bias, it could be but might as well be very well studied truth.
Casting is always based on opinions, its just a question of liking some peoples opinions more or less. Biased is not what you are making examples of here, bias is taking sides. Commentating from only the viewpoint of one the players.
"If only zerg makes spore crawlers here, he has to do x to defend this terran all in. He missed to scout the X thats why he lost, really nice creep spread from X" Not ever talking about the opposing player, his viewpoint or talking in a way that shows bias. In other words prefering one player to win over another, "too bad he didn't build more queens damnit" thats bias. Not mentioning skewed win percents on certain maps.
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I don't watch much SC2 anymore. I used to watch everything I could find in Wings of Liberty and the beginning half of Heart of the Swarm, but not much anymore as a lot of them retired. What I watch nowadays depends on the player who's playing or the commentator. I enjoy listening to an Apollo / Artosis duo. Incontrol is sometimes enjoyable to listen to and Nathanius is a good caster.
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This gem by Chill came to my mind after reading the title Race and player bias will obviously happen and it is not a problem imo. But if all the casters are defending the same player or race it turns into a circlejerk.
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On May 04 2015 16:46 Gwavajuice wrote:To me atm the problem is more the lack of good terran casting korean competitions, Moonglade has incredible knowledge about zergs ofc, tastosis is still very good on protoss, btu when in comes to analysing a terran game, the skill goes down. And when it's TvT... time to switch to O'gaming to hear Funka cast
to really make Terran shine you need sky high APM...and if u personally possess APM less than half of the player you are analysing.. well...it gets tough.
it reminds me of a saying Artosis had about Flash along the lines of: "you won't understand what Flash is doing and why he makes the decisions he makes.. unless you can play with his APM and make as many decisions as he makes in any 10 second time frame"
realizing this, i don't expect an epiphany filled learning experience while listening to the people on the list cast Terran. Every commentator on the list does enough things right to keep me listening though.
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At least no one will be as biased as Mr. Bitter. Sometimes I felt like I was being invited to An Evening With Zerg whenever I tuned in to NASL. That having been said, as a zerg, I loved it.
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4713 Posts
I think its ok for casters to mention that certain maps or certain map features favor certain races or styles, it isn't bias as much as it is presenting information. I think its ok to mention that certain races are struggling at one time or another, either in general of in a specific MU, because of the meta-game. I think its even fine to say if a player is favored against another player if they cite good reasons like practice environment (Korea vs EU, team house vs home practice) etc. What I do hate is overhyping certain players because the casters just love them or because they are foreigners. Yeah we get it, you like them, you can mention it a couple of times but for the love of god don't make the entire cast about them.
Overall though the quality of casters has generally gone up.
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Tasteless? He doesn't even play...
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Does anyone remember who did that unbiased commentator satire video? Was it Chill? It was someone from back in the day (2011, lol [lol means that its sarcasm and that back in the day doesn't mean much in sc2, it was a joke]
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Balance whine is race bias but there are more telling examples of that. If you really want to address the topic, look at how people describe the actions of players. Notice how yesterday, to Wolf, Soulkey was "committing" vs PartinG, while PartinG was "putting it all in" when he counterattacked afterwards? Notice how when a protoss all-ins, to some casters, it's because he "can't beat the other player in a macro game", while for other races, it's to "surprise their opponent"? I'm more sensitive to these types of comments because I always root for protoss, but I'm sure you can find the same type of things for other races for other casters. These influence the way the community sees the game, but are also influenced by the community. There is a chicken & egg thing going on, what started it, was it the casters bashing on players like Has, or was it the community bashing them, and the casters hopping on the train? I don't really know. It makes sense that when you are casting a game of Has to a community who thinks he's ridiculous, you won't treat him the same as you treat Innovation.
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My pet peeve is when people start talking about not sc2. Tasteless being a great example of this apparently. They take every chance to talk about pokemon or whatever crap until like 10 minutes into the game when it's all but decided. You are paid to commentate the game, so commentate the damn game! If I wanted to know about Pokémon I wouldn't be on the gsl stream. I'd honestly take any master player over tasteless, at least they'd talk about the game...
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On May 04 2015 18:17 tshi wrote: Does anyone remember who did that unbiased commentator satire video? Was it Chill? It was someone from back in the day (2011, lol [lol means that its sarcasm and that back in the day doesn't mean much in sc2, it was a joke]
its linked above dude,,,it was Chill
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Overall I am happy with the amjority of the casters to be honest,,,just this was a gripe bout the bias some of them exhibit...
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On May 04 2015 18:50 Nebuchad wrote: Balance whine is race bias but there are more telling examples of that. If you really want to address the topic, look at how people describe the actions of players. Notice how yesterday, to Wolf, Soulkey was "committing" vs PartinG, while PartinG was "putting it all in" when he counterattacked afterwards? Notice how when a protoss all-ins, to some casters, it's because he "can't beat the other player in a macro game", while for other races, it's to "surprise their opponent"? I'm more sensitive to these types of comments because I always root for protoss, but I'm sure you can find the same type of things for other races for other casters. These influence the way the community sees the game, but are also influenced by the community. There is a chicken & egg thing going on, what started it, was it the casters bashing on players like Has, or was it the community bashing them, and the casters hopping on the train? I don't really know. It makes sense that when you are casting a game of Has to a community who thinks he's ridiculous, you won't treat him the same as you treat Innovation.
You don't seem to understand. Zerg commits to a 6 pool, but Protoss goes allin on proxy oracle. You need to work on your basics of SC2
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Quality thread, I tell ya. God forbids actual humans cast games.
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On May 04 2015 19:23 OtherWorld wrote: Quality thread, I tell ya. God forbids actual humans cast games.
That was tongue in cheek obviously...but the bias is not... oh wait,,,your comment was tongue in cheek also...well played.
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Don't be embarrassed about your SC2 passion. But yeah, dont expect people to bother ranking a long list coz aint nobody got time fo dat
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Kaelaris Rotti Nathanias Artosis Khaldor Rifkin ZG Valdes Incontrol Moonglade Wolfe Apollo Tasteless
This is how I rate them. On the top - most biased, on the bottom least biased. It also absolutely resembles my opinion of who the best casters and the worst casters are (Only from the list OP posted). The best are Tasteless and Apollo and the worst are the ones I put on top. Many people may not agree with me, but I don't care.
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I prefer a bunch of gamers talking about games. I prefer bias or transparency because at the very least there is discussion.
or would you prefer we go back to the Day9/Artosis of the broodlord infestor era? Everyone knew there was a problem. zergs, audience, casuals; but no commentator discussed the elephant in the room. It was just taboo.
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