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On March 17 2015 10:17 travis wrote: So is it actually not a majority view that these attacks on women(or anyone else) is mostly coming from little kids? Like, little boys. Not physically(or definitely mentally) mature males. Because somehow this discussion has transcended into a full on discussion of feminism.
I really don't know any guy that can grow a beard that wouldn't want girls playing their games. Well, I don't want the ones who act like playing Farmville between texting binges makes them a gamer for reasons I've already described. But I that's got little to do with their gender, I wouldn't want men who did the same playing the games I do either.
If you don't want to search for my reasoning, I'll sum it up. The Farmville audience is huge, and will lure devs away from making games to meet their core audience's preferences. So we get microtansaction-filled, day 1 DLC garbage.
I readily admit that that's not all women. I know a few that regularly play hardcore games. Likewise, not all men are hardcore gamers. While they might not play Farmville, they play the male-equivalent: Madden.
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On March 17 2015 10:09 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 09:58 kwizach wrote: Could we perhaps stop discussing completely distorted strawmen of feminism (which is about equality, contrary to the utterly wrong picture you're trying to paint of it)? This is clearly off-topic, to the point where I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed if this continues much longer. If you have a problem with feminism or if you need some people who actually know what they're talking about to walk you through feminism, its goals, the different waves of feminism, and anything else you might want to be enlightened about, perhaps you should go make another thread. I've tied in everything I have said to the topic at hand. Your baseless assertion that feminism is about equality is a truly worthless contribution, though. So well done. Not one sentence of your post is tied to the topic at hand, which does not even mention feminism.
Perhaps you should also contact the Merriam-Webster dictionary to tell them their definition of feminism as "the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes" is "baseless".
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Madden and FarmVille........that's fuckin rich and I don't even like Madden lol.
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On March 17 2015 10:22 QuanticHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:09 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 09:58 kwizach wrote: Could we perhaps stop discussing completely distorted strawmen of feminism (which is about equality, contrary to the utterly wrong picture you're trying to paint of it)? This is clearly off-topic, to the point where I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed if this continues much longer. If you have a problem with feminism or if you need some people who actually know what they're talking about to walk you through feminism, its goals, the different waves of feminism, and anything else you might want to be enlightened about, perhaps you should go make another thread. I've tied in everything I have said to the topic at hand. Your baseless assertion that feminism is about equality is a truly worthless contribution, though. So well done. On March 17 2015 09:22 QuanticHawk wrote:On March 17 2015 09:16 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2015 08:58 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 07:24 RuiBarbO wrote:On March 17 2015 06:19 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 01:17 RuiBarbO wrote:On March 16 2015 22:41 bardtown wrote:On March 16 2015 21:49 Joan_of_Arc wrote: The general level of discourse in this thread is deplorable, containing everything from victim blaming ('You shouldn't reveal that you're female then; it's asking for it') to false equivocation of experience ('Men get harassed too! If we can deal with it, obviously they should be able to') when the fact is that, overwhelmingly, the perspectives supplied in this thread and the criticisms of the documentary are presented by people with no experience with being a female, or being a female who experiences harassment online.
While it is true that men and women both experience harassment online, the harassment could hardly be said to be equal in scope or depth. How often do men get harassed throughout a game because of their voice, or have their play derided due to their gender? How often do male progamers have their fanclubs filled with vitriol and rape threats? We don't even need to look far afield to see that the level of harassment experienced is far from equal - if anyone else was around for the first days of Scalett's fanclub, I'm sure you remember it well enough.
You are deplorable, for wholesale buying into a paradigm of nonsense. When somebody blurts out 'victim blaming' and 'false equivocation' their feminist indoctrination is beyond blatant. There is nothing deplorable about rational discussion that doesn't fit with your bigotry, and there is nothing deplorable about people who think women are not so frail as to need special treatment at all times. You are deplorable, for ignoring the actual evidence and going with your own bias. Did you see the study somebody posted about how men are much more likely to receive abuse on twitter? That's not unique. Incontrol probably got more abuse than any other progamer in the scene, and we're not just talking about cholesterol jokes (you're using an anecdote, right?). We have a deepset biological disposition to care more about women than men. But women can handle themselves. This documentary is not a representation of women in gaming, because actually most women do just get on with it, like men do, through abuse and trolling and all of it. This documentary is a representation of entitlement in modern western feminists, because they have a platform so why not? I do not have experience being a female, but I have a lot of experience of playing with females (and also with males who pretend to be females because they know it gets them special treatment) and I have experience being male. I have (and you can too!) compared experiences across the divide, and realised that there's not a lot in it. It's not victim blaming to tell somebody to use the mute function. Is there anybody here who isn't forced to use it sometimes? Also the amount of times I have seen young boys getting bullied for the pitch of their voice by much older boys is beyond counting. They either shut up or they deal with it. Having your 'play derided because of your gender' is not a very serious offense, sorry. Certainly no more serious than a male being called a retard for being bad at a game. Isn't it a bit problematic to say you support "rational discussion" while dismissing feminist social theory as "indoctrination" and "a paradigm of nonsense" in virtually the same breath? I think I understand where you're coming from---here we're having a "rational discussion" and then someone comes in and starts calling people "deplorable"---but is that really an excuse to do the exact same thing to them? The mere fact that they called the discourse in the thread "deplorable" does not mean that their points are not worthy of any consideration, even if the manner in which they brought them up is a bit combative. If you dismiss people (and their theoretical backgrounds) off the bat for getting incensed, how can you ever have a discussion about an emotionally charged subject? Also, "false equivocation" is not a feminist term, it's a kind of logical fallacy. The appearance of "false equivocation" is not evidence that someone is a feminist, or that they are just always wrong. "Victim blaming" is also a more useful term than I think you give it credit for being. It refers to a situation in which someone suffers abuse and is criticized harshly when they bring it up. If you agree that people suffering abuse should be allowed to bring it up, then "victim blaming" should seem problematic. And if the documentary is an example of people suffering abuse bringing it up, shouldn't we then be hesitant to attack the makers of the documentary for being "indoctrinated" or sensationalist, etc? I agree that it's important to try to "compare experiences across the divide," although I'm not so sure that it's fair to use your own observations in this regard to dismiss the documentary off the bat. If the documentary and your observations conflict, is it really helpful to assume that "there's not a lot to it?" Or is it more helpful to think carefully about why these differences are present? Moreover, you can't dismiss the documentary's conclusion (which, incidentally, is hard to know without actually watching it) just by claiming that it's false, which you seem to do in your post. You have to show how the premises that led to that conclusion are flawed, which again no one can really do if they haven't watched it. It's not irrational to call something irrational irrational. I know what 'false equivocation' means. Here is a brilliant example taken from an idiot in this thread: On March 17 2015 02:37 Jelissei wrote: RuiBarbO, I like you. -----------------------------
I never quite understod why people argue against... yeah, what exactly? That you should treat women as actual persons?
And this is what rational people are up against: the notion that arguing against something a feminist says is equivalent to hating women. This is an irrational line of argument that is intended to make people like me seem bad without addressing the content of what we say in a rational manner. As for my manner, calling western feminism a paradigm of nonsense: I know it's not helpful. I'm not a patient person in situations like this: coming in and throwing around feminist terms and accusations as though they bring anything to the discussion is not at all useful, and I do not feel inclined to respond to them as though they are. 'Victim blaming' is a hugely overextended concept that goes hand in hand with entitlement. Funnily enough it only ever comes up when the conversation is about women: when some guy bites a troll's bait and everyone calls him an idiot for biting, nobody calls it victim blaming. Why is it suddenly victim blaming when a woman gets involved in some dumb argument with a troll instead of just muting them? This is just another example of the perpetual victim narrative. Women are not always victims, fuck off with that nonsense. People are responsible for their own actions. It's not victim blaming to recommend people stay with friends when they are drunk for their own safety, for example. It is victim blaming if somebody gets raped and you say "it's your fault because you weren't with your friends". Totally different things. That's false equivocation too. 'False equivocation' is a term which has been hijacked by feminists (so is suspect when placed right next to 'victim blaming') to mean 'your experiences are invalid because you are male'. This is not down to an incapacity in men to appreciate women's struggles, it is the complete opposite. Feminists deny that men's experiences are relevant because they have an agenda and those experiences conflict with that agenda. It is a way to make their own opinions completely invulnerable to reason, because nobody has the exact same experience as them. I haven't seen the documentary, but there are signs that it follows this conventional feminist narrative. I can not dismiss their conclusions, but I can question their motives and the ideas presented by others in this thread. I very much doubt they will have a more in depth/balanced discussion within the documentary than has occurred in this thread, at any rate. If it is just a collection of anecdotes, as it seems to be from what I read, then it is more or less worthless. I could, if I felt so compelled, create a documentary detailing the special treatment women get in MMOs as a result of their gender. I wouldn't, because I have no agenda. My experiences are not necessarily contradicting those expressed in the documentary. This will depend if they have men - and not just feminist men - in their documentary, and if they have women who have no problem with the atmosphere, because I know they exist. I suspect it will be made to look as though these trolls target women exclusively, as opposed to anybody not a part of their homologous little reality. If so, I will consider it dishonest and void of integrity. I definitely agree that feminists in the public sphere often make broad claims ("there's no such thing as sexism against men") without giving enough attention to how they got there, and that this does not contribute to a very helpful discussion for anyone. I think it's safe to say that some people who oppose feminism are guilty of the same thing. It's unfortunate because I do think that certain forms of feminism (it's a fairly broad term) could play a very helpful role in examining things like "power" and "entitlement," if people could just figure out how to actually talk about them constructively. Also, not all feminist scholars "deny that men's experiences are relevant"---in many of the social sciences, people (some of whom describe themselves as "feminists") are recognizing that studying masculinity and men is just as important as studying femininity and women, since the two categories are pretty closely intertwined. I'm not referring to extremes like that (no such thing as sexism against men), which no reasonable person could believe. The problem is much more subtle and pervasive, and serves to invalidate the opinions of men, even in (or particularly in) scenarios where they are the dominant demographic. So, a woman says she has received abuse in a competitive game and is bothered by it. A man says he has received the exact same abuse in the exact same frequency and isn't bothered by it. What if he says he prefers the rough atmosphere? It is irrelevant. His experiences are utterly meaningless, because the agenda is not there for balance, it is there for the benefit of women, even in predominantly male spheres of interest. He's automatically a chauvinist and she's a victim. The risk in allowing this narrative to go unchecked is that a vocal minority of women and henpecked men will cause the changing of a system that the vast majority of its demographic are satisfied with. Now if you can show that a significant majority of gamers think more punishments for offensive behaviour are needed, then we can talk. Women are not, after all, forced into playing competitive games. They do so willingly. If you move country, you do so on the understanding that you are moving to a new culture with different expectations. If you choose to work in a profession dominated by the opposite sex you can expect differences in conversation. It's all the same concept, except that in gaming you have failsafe methods of getting away from people, so you're already safer than in any of the other scenarios I just mentioned. As for feminists recognising the importance of masculinity - please stop. The vast majority of feminist literature about masculinity is about how it is toxic, how boys should be taught that's it's okay to cry and be more feminine in general. Please, credit us some agency and accept that, for the majority of us, we are who we want to be. Traditionally, men aspire to masculinity and women to femininity. Now we should all aspire to femininity, apparently. On March 17 2015 08:47 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2015 07:47 Slaughter wrote: I find it extremely distasteful that some posters in this thread are trying to use or turn into variations on the words "feminism" and "feminist" as an epithet
One of my friends put it best when she was talking about discussion feminism with some men online: "At a certain point you realize that they are not arguing with you at all. Rather they are arguing with the feminist they created in their head." Hey, she has to find some way to ignore the things they say. She does, but they keep trying to explain feminism to her. Its weird, its almost like she a place holder for them. And a new one always shows up once the old one leaves or is blocked. And if you don't like women explaining toxic masculinity, Terry Crews will explain it to you. Its not a complex concept really. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/brooklyn-ninenine-actor-terry-crews-on-how-macho-culture-has-led-to-the-deaths-of-millions-and-why-hes-a-feminist-10106529.htmlThis is the face of a feminist we can all get behind: Terry Crews seems like such a cool fucking dude, and I love him in that stupid, wonderful movie. That was a cool interview. Articulate guys explaining this shit probably would resonate a lot better. On March 17 2015 08:58 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 07:24 RuiBarbO wrote:On March 17 2015 06:19 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 01:17 RuiBarbO wrote:On March 16 2015 22:41 bardtown wrote:On March 16 2015 21:49 Joan_of_Arc wrote: The general level of discourse in this thread is deplorable, containing everything from victim blaming ('You shouldn't reveal that you're female then; it's asking for it') to false equivocation of experience ('Men get harassed too! If we can deal with it, obviously they should be able to') when the fact is that, overwhelmingly, the perspectives supplied in this thread and the criticisms of the documentary are presented by people with no experience with being a female, or being a female who experiences harassment online.
While it is true that men and women both experience harassment online, the harassment could hardly be said to be equal in scope or depth. How often do men get harassed throughout a game because of their voice, or have their play derided due to their gender? How often do male progamers have their fanclubs filled with vitriol and rape threats? We don't even need to look far afield to see that the level of harassment experienced is far from equal - if anyone else was around for the first days of Scalett's fanclub, I'm sure you remember it well enough.
You are deplorable, for wholesale buying into a paradigm of nonsense. When somebody blurts out 'victim blaming' and 'false equivocation' their feminist indoctrination is beyond blatant. There is nothing deplorable about rational discussion that doesn't fit with your bigotry, and there is nothing deplorable about people who think women are not so frail as to need special treatment at all times. You are deplorable, for ignoring the actual evidence and going with your own bias. Did you see the study somebody posted about how men are much more likely to receive abuse on twitter? That's not unique. Incontrol probably got more abuse than any other progamer in the scene, and we're not just talking about cholesterol jokes (you're using an anecdote, right?). We have a deepset biological disposition to care more about women than men. But women can handle themselves. This documentary is not a representation of women in gaming, because actually most women do just get on with it, like men do, through abuse and trolling and all of it. This documentary is a representation of entitlement in modern western feminists, because they have a platform so why not? I do not have experience being a female, but I have a lot of experience of playing with females (and also with males who pretend to be females because they know it gets them special treatment) and I have experience being male. I have (and you can too!) compared experiences across the divide, and realised that there's not a lot in it. It's not victim blaming to tell somebody to use the mute function. Is there anybody here who isn't forced to use it sometimes? Also the amount of times I have seen young boys getting bullied for the pitch of their voice by much older boys is beyond counting. They either shut up or they deal with it. Having your 'play derided because of your gender' is not a very serious offense, sorry. Certainly no more serious than a male being called a retard for being bad at a game. Isn't it a bit problematic to say you support "rational discussion" while dismissing feminist social theory as "indoctrination" and "a paradigm of nonsense" in virtually the same breath? I think I understand where you're coming from---here we're having a "rational discussion" and then someone comes in and starts calling people "deplorable"---but is that really an excuse to do the exact same thing to them? The mere fact that they called the discourse in the thread "deplorable" does not mean that their points are not worthy of any consideration, even if the manner in which they brought them up is a bit combative. If you dismiss people (and their theoretical backgrounds) off the bat for getting incensed, how can you ever have a discussion about an emotionally charged subject? Also, "false equivocation" is not a feminist term, it's a kind of logical fallacy. The appearance of "false equivocation" is not evidence that someone is a feminist, or that they are just always wrong. "Victim blaming" is also a more useful term than I think you give it credit for being. It refers to a situation in which someone suffers abuse and is criticized harshly when they bring it up. If you agree that people suffering abuse should be allowed to bring it up, then "victim blaming" should seem problematic. And if the documentary is an example of people suffering abuse bringing it up, shouldn't we then be hesitant to attack the makers of the documentary for being "indoctrinated" or sensationalist, etc? I agree that it's important to try to "compare experiences across the divide," although I'm not so sure that it's fair to use your own observations in this regard to dismiss the documentary off the bat. If the documentary and your observations conflict, is it really helpful to assume that "there's not a lot to it?" Or is it more helpful to think carefully about why these differences are present? Moreover, you can't dismiss the documentary's conclusion (which, incidentally, is hard to know without actually watching it) just by claiming that it's false, which you seem to do in your post. You have to show how the premises that led to that conclusion are flawed, which again no one can really do if they haven't watched it. It's not irrational to call something irrational irrational. I know what 'false equivocation' means. Here is a brilliant example taken from an idiot in this thread: On March 17 2015 02:37 Jelissei wrote: RuiBarbO, I like you. -----------------------------
I never quite understod why people argue against... yeah, what exactly? That you should treat women as actual persons?
And this is what rational people are up against: the notion that arguing against something a feminist says is equivalent to hating women. This is an irrational line of argument that is intended to make people like me seem bad without addressing the content of what we say in a rational manner. As for my manner, calling western feminism a paradigm of nonsense: I know it's not helpful. I'm not a patient person in situations like this: coming in and throwing around feminist terms and accusations as though they bring anything to the discussion is not at all useful, and I do not feel inclined to respond to them as though they are. 'Victim blaming' is a hugely overextended concept that goes hand in hand with entitlement. Funnily enough it only ever comes up when the conversation is about women: when some guy bites a troll's bait and everyone calls him an idiot for biting, nobody calls it victim blaming. Why is it suddenly victim blaming when a woman gets involved in some dumb argument with a troll instead of just muting them? This is just another example of the perpetual victim narrative. Women are not always victims, fuck off with that nonsense. People are responsible for their own actions. It's not victim blaming to recommend people stay with friends when they are drunk for their own safety, for example. It is victim blaming if somebody gets raped and you say "it's your fault because you weren't with your friends". Totally different things. That's false equivocation too. 'False equivocation' is a term which has been hijacked by feminists (so is suspect when placed right next to 'victim blaming') to mean 'your experiences are invalid because you are male'. This is not down to an incapacity in men to appreciate women's struggles, it is the complete opposite. Feminists deny that men's experiences are relevant because they have an agenda and those experiences conflict with that agenda. It is a way to make their own opinions completely invulnerable to reason, because nobody has the exact same experience as them. I haven't seen the documentary, but there are signs that it follows this conventional feminist narrative. I can not dismiss their conclusions, but I can question their motives and the ideas presented by others in this thread. I very much doubt they will have a more in depth/balanced discussion within the documentary than has occurred in this thread, at any rate. If it is just a collection of anecdotes, as it seems to be from what I read, then it is more or less worthless. I could, if I felt so compelled, create a documentary detailing the special treatment women get in MMOs as a result of their gender. I wouldn't, because I have no agenda. My experiences are not necessarily contradicting those expressed in the documentary. This will depend if they have men - and not just feminist men - in their documentary, and if they have women who have no problem with the atmosphere, because I know they exist. I suspect it will be made to look as though these trolls target women exclusively, as opposed to anybody not a part of their homologous little reality. If so, I will consider it dishonest and void of integrity. I definitely agree that feminists in the public sphere often make broad claims ("there's no such thing as sexism against men") without giving enough attention to how they got there, and that this does not contribute to a very helpful discussion for anyone. I think it's safe to say that some people who oppose feminism are guilty of the same thing. It's unfortunate because I do think that certain forms of feminism (it's a fairly broad term) could play a very helpful role in examining things like "power" and "entitlement," if people could just figure out how to actually talk about them constructively. Also, not all feminist scholars "deny that men's experiences are relevant"---in many of the social sciences, people (some of whom describe themselves as "feminists") are recognizing that studying masculinity and men is just as important as studying femininity and women, since the two categories are pretty closely intertwined. I'm not referring to extremes like that (no such thing as sexism against men), which no reasonable person could believe. The problem is much more subtle and pervasive, and serves to invalidate the opinions of men, even in (or particularly in) scenarios where they are the dominant demographic. So, a woman says she has received abuse in a competitive game and is bothered by it. A man says he has received the exact same abuse in the exact same frequency and isn't bothered by it. What if he says he prefers the rough atmosphere? It is irrelevant. His experiences are utterly meaningless, because the agenda is not there for balance, it is there for the benefit of women, even in predominantly male spheres of interest. He's automatically a chauvinist and she's a victim. The risk in allowing this narrative to go unchecked is that a vocal minority of women and henpecked men will cause the changing of a system that the vast majority of its demographic are satisfied with. Now if you can show that a significant majority of gamers think more punishments for offensive behaviour are needed, then we can talk. Women are not, after all, forced into playing competitive games. They do so willingly. If you move country, you do so on the understanding that you are moving to a new culture with different expectations. If you choose to work in a profession dominated by the opposite sex you can expect differences in conversation. It's all the same concept, except that in gaming you have failsafe methods of getting away from people, so you're already safer than in any of the other scenarios I just mentioned. As for feminists recognising the importance of masculinity - please stop. The vast majority of feminist literature about masculinity is about how it is toxic, how boys should be taught that's it's okay to cry and be more feminine in general. Please, credit us some agency and accept that, for the majority of us, we are who we want to be. Traditionally, men aspire to masculinity and women to femininity. Now we should all aspire to femininity, apparently. On March 17 2015 08:47 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2015 07:47 Slaughter wrote: I find it extremely distasteful that some posters in this thread are trying to use or turn into variations on the words "feminism" and "feminist" as an epithet
One of my friends put it best when she was talking about discussion feminism with some men online: "At a certain point you realize that they are not arguing with you at all. Rather they are arguing with the feminist they created in their head." Hey, she has to find some way to ignore the things they say. The difference is the majority of the shit slung the way of a woman online will be exclusively based on their gender. Guys will not get that. To each other, guys toss around bitch and faggot (think about this for a sec - why are these pejoratives?). Race gets tossed around too, but that's fucking weird because dudes online love to toss out horrible racist shit across the board at everyone but their own race. I mean, given that online gaming has a ton of little teenage dweebs, I do think on some level some of this shit is more shock value than actually believing the hate behind it. But on the whole, the way women are treated online should very obviously be a problem to anyone who looks at it and spends as much time as everyone here. It's much less of a difference than you make it out to be. You do realise that being called a faggot or a bitch is a gendered insult because the goal is to deny somebody's masculinity, right? Anyway I have acknowledged that there are differences. Women may have it worse - there is not any real data to support this however - but all minorities get it worse. We've already said: that is the nature of trolling. They latch on to whatever they can know about you from just your name/voice. If you have an accent, you will get targeted abuse too. The fact that this only becomes a discussion when some vocal female minority bring it up is really an evidence of our own bias in favour of women. There are multiple studies showing that men receive more abuse than women do. What I really want to see is all of you accepting your bias instead of asserting - with absolutely no evidence - that women have it worse than men or any other minority group (in gaming where women are actually a minority). Yes. What are you doing when you deny someone's masculinity? Implying that being gay or a woman is bad. There have been many things examining how women are treated online, and it's pretty much universally agreed upon by anyone who pays attention that women are treated very differently. No one is denying that trolls say horrible things to people, usually based on the limited info they can find. The difference is that people think these are things that are ok to say to women any time. Here's a fun little experiment to illustrate this: go find a female friend, have her hop on your xbox with a headset and play GTA. Let me know how many times people say they will rape her (or do whatever sexual thing or something based on her gender). Then you play and let me know how many times people say they will find you and creampie your ass and then teabag you. Then go hop on OKCupid, and both of you make a profile. Then compare the types of messages you get, and the kind of response you both get when you ignore people. Seriously, no bullshit, no snark: I challenge you to go do that and still hold the same views you are saying now
You're really making the opposite point to what you intend. When you call a man a woman, you are not insinuating that being a woman is bad. When you call a woman a man, you are not insinuating that being a man is bad. You are insulting the individual by pushing an identity onto them which they do not associate with.
I've played games with girls for years and I know they don't feel hard done by. My clan in my favourite game of all time had pretty much every competitive female player in it. They got a little bit more attention but not negative attention. This is not the same as Xbox Live, but then why are we extrapolating the behaviours on Xbox Live to gaming as a whole anyway? I know what will happen if me and a girl both make an OKCupid profile. She will get 100 messages and I will get none. Check your privilege .
On March 17 2015 10:13 QuanticHawk wrote: yeah, despite the admittedly not good name, the basic premise of feminism is that everyone should be treated equal. Obviously the means to reach this and the end goal differ wildly person to person.
But what it boils down to is that you think that women (and everyone else) should be treated as equals, should have the same opporunties, should be able to get the same pay for the same work/experience, should not be subject to discrimination based on their gender, etc. that is the basic tenant of feminism. if you wanted to enlighten yourself about it more you could read about the different waves and stuff like kwizach is saying.
but really when someone asks you are you a feminist, they are saying 'do you believe in equality'. it should be a very very simple answer. the problems arise when trying to how to make everyone equal after years and years of men having an advantage. That's where you occasionally see the really whacky offshoots of it that detractors like to paint as your every day feminist
You see the problem is that you have it opposite to how it actually is. It is academic feminists and feminist organisations - the ones who reap the benefit from your en masse association with the word - who believe in concepts like privilege and who block men's rights and pour money into meaningless campaigns. You're assuming that I know nothing about feminism when it should be obvious I am very familiar with it. I am not enamoured like you, that's all. In practice the only thing feminists care about is equality for women in areas which benefit them. Where is the campaign to get more women working down sewers and in factories? Nope, they want female programmers. Funny how they choose to focus on one of the best paid lines of work.
You don't get the benefits of equal pay as a group without committing to the same level of hard work and sacrifice as a group. Most of what feminism is campaigning for is special treatment.
When someone asks 'are you a feminist?' they are not asking a question in any way related to 'do you believe in equality?'.
On March 17 2015 10:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:09 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 09:58 kwizach wrote: Could we perhaps stop discussing completely distorted strawmen of feminism (which is about equality, contrary to the utterly wrong picture you're trying to paint of it)? This is clearly off-topic, to the point where I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed if this continues much longer. If you have a problem with feminism or if you need some people who actually know what they're talking about to walk you through feminism, its goals, the different waves of feminism, and anything else you might want to be enlightened about, perhaps you should go make another thread. I've tied in everything I have said to the topic at hand. Your baseless assertion that feminism is about equality is a truly worthless contribution, though. So well done. Once again, arguing with the feminist in his head. He has creating a fictional avatar and we are all place holders.
If you made any points rather than just chipping in with little snide remarks maybe I would have something other than an avatar to respond to. I may appear to have cosmic-tier intelligence to you but I have to admit I cannot read your mind.
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On March 17 2015 10:28 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:17 travis wrote: So is it actually not a majority view that these attacks on women(or anyone else) is mostly coming from little kids? Like, little boys. Not physically(or definitely mentally) mature males. Because somehow this discussion has transcended into a full on discussion of feminism.
I really don't know any guy that can grow a beard that wouldn't want girls playing their games. Well, I don't want the ones who act like playing Farmville between texting binges makes them a gamer for reasons I've already described. But I that's got little to do with their gender, I wouldn't want men who did the same playing the games I do either. If you don't want to search for my reasoning, I'll sum it up. The Farmville audience is huge, and will lure devs away from making games to meet their core audience's preferences. So we get microtansaction-filled, day 1 DLC garbage. I readily admit that that's not all women. I know a few that regularly play hardcore games. Likewise, not all men are hardcore gamers. While they might not play Farmville, they play the male-equivalent: Madden.
what? I wasn't asking what games females play.
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On March 17 2015 10:36 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:28 Millitron wrote:On March 17 2015 10:17 travis wrote: So is it actually not a majority view that these attacks on women(or anyone else) is mostly coming from little kids? Like, little boys. Not physically(or definitely mentally) mature males. Because somehow this discussion has transcended into a full on discussion of feminism.
I really don't know any guy that can grow a beard that wouldn't want girls playing their games. Well, I don't want the ones who act like playing Farmville between texting binges makes them a gamer for reasons I've already described. But I that's got little to do with their gender, I wouldn't want men who did the same playing the games I do either. If you don't want to search for my reasoning, I'll sum it up. The Farmville audience is huge, and will lure devs away from making games to meet their core audience's preferences. So we get microtansaction-filled, day 1 DLC garbage. I readily admit that that's not all women. I know a few that regularly play hardcore games. Likewise, not all men are hardcore gamers. While they might not play Farmville, they play the male-equivalent: Madden. what? I wasn't asking what games females play. I was summing up my position that I don't want casuals playing the games I do. I don't care if their male or female, if they're casual I don't want them playing the same games as me. Because I've seen too many devs try to grab the casual audience and throw their core audience under the bus.
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On March 17 2015 10:35 bardtown wrote:Show nested quote + Once again, arguing with the feminist in his head. He has creating a fictional avatar and we are all place holders.
If you made any points rather than just chipping in with little snide remarks maybe I would have something other than an avatar to respond to. I may appear to have cosmic-tier intelligence to you but I have to admit I cannot read your mind. There is nothing to respond to, it doesn't really matter what we say. You don't acknowledge the basic definition of feminism is seeking equality and strawman the fuck out of it every time you post. You are arguing against a fictional version of feminism you created in your head.
Like my father says, "Don't argue with a drunk or a fool."
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On March 17 2015 08:47 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 07:47 Slaughter wrote: I find it extremely distasteful that some posters in this thread are trying to use or turn into variations on the words "feminism" and "feminist" as an epithet
One of my friends put it best when she was talking about discussion feminism with some men online: "At a certain point you realize that they are not arguing with you at all. Rather they are arguing with the feminist they created in their head."
On March 17 2015 10:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:09 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 09:58 kwizach wrote: Could we perhaps stop discussing completely distorted strawmen of feminism (which is about equality, contrary to the utterly wrong picture you're trying to paint of it)? This is clearly off-topic, to the point where I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed if this continues much longer. If you have a problem with feminism or if you need some people who actually know what they're talking about to walk you through feminism, its goals, the different waves of feminism, and anything else you might want to be enlightened about, perhaps you should go make another thread. I've tied in everything I have said to the topic at hand. Your baseless assertion that feminism is about equality is a truly worthless contribution, though. So well done. Once again, arguing with the feminist in his head. He has creating a fictional avatar and we are all place holders. In that case do you see any irony in your own attitudes? I haven't seen too many many people on either/any "side" having a rational discussion about each other's points.
On March 11 2015 08:24 Plansix wrote: If you deal with enough MRAs you deal with the same debunked bullshit statistics and and cherry picked studies over and over. This site has a couple regular MRA that like to troll up and thread dealing with women's issues. People are just joking around because if you discuss feminism or women's issue on the Internet, the people find you.
On March 12 2015 04:26 Plansix wrote: The internet badass MRA have arrived and want to tell us all about our need to toughen up and get out of our hugboxes. And they clearly didn't read the article because none of what they are talking about is referenced.
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On March 17 2015 11:25 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 08:47 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2015 07:47 Slaughter wrote: I find it extremely distasteful that some posters in this thread are trying to use or turn into variations on the words "feminism" and "feminist" as an epithet
One of my friends put it best when she was talking about discussion feminism with some men online: "At a certain point you realize that they are not arguing with you at all. Rather they are arguing with the feminist they created in their head." Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:27 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2015 10:09 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 09:58 kwizach wrote: Could we perhaps stop discussing completely distorted strawmen of feminism (which is about equality, contrary to the utterly wrong picture you're trying to paint of it)? This is clearly off-topic, to the point where I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed if this continues much longer. If you have a problem with feminism or if you need some people who actually know what they're talking about to walk you through feminism, its goals, the different waves of feminism, and anything else you might want to be enlightened about, perhaps you should go make another thread. I've tied in everything I have said to the topic at hand. Your baseless assertion that feminism is about equality is a truly worthless contribution, though. So well done. Once again, arguing with the feminist in his head. He has creating a fictional avatar and we are all place holders. In that case do you see any irony in your own attitudes? I haven't seen too many many people on either/any "side" having a rational discussion about each other's points. Show nested quote +On March 11 2015 08:24 Plansix wrote: If you deal with enough MRAs you deal with the same debunked bullshit statistics and and cherry picked studies over and over. This site has a couple regular MRA that like to troll up and thread dealing with women's issues. People are just joking around because if you discuss feminism or women's issue on the Internet, the people find you. Show nested quote +On March 12 2015 04:26 Plansix wrote: The internet badass MRA have arrived and want to tell us all about our need to toughen up and get out of our hugboxes. And they clearly didn't read the article because none of what they are talking about is referenced. Yep, if you read this thread one of them came in here in full force arguing how brain size was a factor in proving men were overall better at math. It doesn't take long, you type feminism on the internet and you summon them.
Once again the argument in this thread has been dragged to a discussion about feminism, rather than harassment. And the same posters keep bringing it there. Its exactly as I predicted it would go.
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On March 17 2015 11:21 Millitron wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 10:36 travis wrote:On March 17 2015 10:28 Millitron wrote:On March 17 2015 10:17 travis wrote: So is it actually not a majority view that these attacks on women(or anyone else) is mostly coming from little kids? Like, little boys. Not physically(or definitely mentally) mature males. Because somehow this discussion has transcended into a full on discussion of feminism.
I really don't know any guy that can grow a beard that wouldn't want girls playing their games. Well, I don't want the ones who act like playing Farmville between texting binges makes them a gamer for reasons I've already described. But I that's got little to do with their gender, I wouldn't want men who did the same playing the games I do either. If you don't want to search for my reasoning, I'll sum it up. The Farmville audience is huge, and will lure devs away from making games to meet their core audience's preferences. So we get microtansaction-filled, day 1 DLC garbage. I readily admit that that's not all women. I know a few that regularly play hardcore games. Likewise, not all men are hardcore gamers. While they might not play Farmville, they play the male-equivalent: Madden. what? I wasn't asking what games females play. I was summing up my position that I don't want casuals playing the games I do. I don't care if their male or female, if they're casual I don't want them playing the same games as me. Because I've seen too many devs try to grab the casual audience and throw their core audience under the bus. but wut about pokemon? But seriously, I am starting to get really confused now about where this is going.
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Seems to me that trolls within the gaming community making comments at women that are the equivelant of sexual harassment are merely highlighting a problem that exists outside of the gaming community: women are threatened with sexual harassment in daily life. This is why women are more upset about the trolls' comments, right, while men just shrug it off? Because it hits so close to home? Even when all parties involved know that all the troll is trying to do is provoke people regardless of their gender, orientation or whatever?
So, solve the problem outside gaming, and you solve it within gaming. And possibly eliminate all trolls at the same time, because I wouldn't be surprised if the trolls online are also responsible for the offline problem (when they think they can get away with it). It is merely more obvious online because there is very little social filtering going on when people are anonymous.
Not that I know how to even begin to approach the problem. Also I'm pretty sure this has already been pointed out in this thread somewhere between pages 15 and 50 (which I didnt read).
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This tread went pretty much as expected? 1. Documentary about Women in gaming experiencing sexism/harassment and how its keeping woman away from gaming.
2. Some people claiming that everyone does experience harassment and this is not a womans issue and kinda belongs into competetive gaming.
3. Some people feel that women experience sexual harassment is way worse than the harassment others recieve and that it is a sexism problem.
4. Some people feeling insulted because gaming culture as a whole is now set on par with sexism because trolls troll.
5. Some people calling the other people sexist for not seing this as a sexism issue.
6. Full on feminazi/sexist/whatever slugfest.
Put in a slice of gamersgate and „general game design for women“ discussion and you got it all covered. Well, it was fun/hilarious, but it was pretty damn clear that this tread would go like this.
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On March 17 2015 18:23 Velr wrote: This tread went pretty much as expected? 1. Documentary about Women in gaming experiencing sexism/harassment and how its keeping woman away from gaming.
2. Some people claiming that everyone does experience harassment and this is not a womans issue and kinda belongs into competetive gaming.
3. Some people feel that women experience sexual harassment is way worse than the harassment others recieve and that it is a sexism problem.
4. Some people feeling insulted because gaming culture as a whole is now set on par with sexism because trolls troll.
5. Some people calling the other people sexist for not seing this as a sexism issue.
6. Full on feminazi/sexist/whatever slugfest.
Put in a slice of gamersgate and „general game design for women“ discussion and you got it all covered. Well, it was fun/hilarious, but it was pretty damn clear that this tread would go like this.
Well it's not specific to gaming forum tho. Today, it is almost impossible to discuss about gender inequality or any topic related with anyone because people from both side always feel insulted when you say anything that contradict their points. I remember when I was a student in a lecture about gender inequality, I implied, quoting work, that the "everything equal" - in the women gain 6 to 9% less income everything equal - was a statistcal artifact and not necessarily a good thing considering that a woman "everything equal" does not exist. I got crucified.
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the weaker you are perceived to be, the more you get picked on. adding sex-isms to that is like the cherry on top which makes everything taste that much better. being a female is considered to be just one more weakness.
so, the weaker you are (think of a woman, or a sexually ambiguous man with mild impediments in speech/looks/we; that will be the jack pot, the holy grail of mockery) the harder you're likely to fall under pressure which in turn would increase the enjoyment the abuser gets out of it. it's predator-like behavior. find the weakest link then kill it(metaphorically).
this, is (also)about sex, but not driven or limited by it so trying to fix the issue in the name of womanhood is at least egotistical.
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On March 17 2015 11:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 11:25 oBlade wrote:On March 17 2015 08:47 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2015 07:47 Slaughter wrote: I find it extremely distasteful that some posters in this thread are trying to use or turn into variations on the words "feminism" and "feminist" as an epithet
One of my friends put it best when she was talking about discussion feminism with some men online: "At a certain point you realize that they are not arguing with you at all. Rather they are arguing with the feminist they created in their head." On March 17 2015 10:27 Plansix wrote:On March 17 2015 10:09 bardtown wrote:On March 17 2015 09:58 kwizach wrote: Could we perhaps stop discussing completely distorted strawmen of feminism (which is about equality, contrary to the utterly wrong picture you're trying to paint of it)? This is clearly off-topic, to the point where I have a feeling this thread is going to be closed if this continues much longer. If you have a problem with feminism or if you need some people who actually know what they're talking about to walk you through feminism, its goals, the different waves of feminism, and anything else you might want to be enlightened about, perhaps you should go make another thread. I've tied in everything I have said to the topic at hand. Your baseless assertion that feminism is about equality is a truly worthless contribution, though. So well done. Once again, arguing with the feminist in his head. He has creating a fictional avatar and we are all place holders. In that case do you see any irony in your own attitudes? I haven't seen too many many people on either/any "side" having a rational discussion about each other's points. On March 11 2015 08:24 Plansix wrote: If you deal with enough MRAs you deal with the same debunked bullshit statistics and and cherry picked studies over and over. This site has a couple regular MRA that like to troll up and thread dealing with women's issues. People are just joking around because if you discuss feminism or women's issue on the Internet, the people find you. On March 12 2015 04:26 Plansix wrote: The internet badass MRA have arrived and want to tell us all about our need to toughen up and get out of our hugboxes. And they clearly didn't read the article because none of what they are talking about is referenced. Yep, if you read this thread one of them came in here in full force arguing how brain size was a factor in proving men were overall better at math. It doesn't take long, you type feminism on the internet and you summon them. Once again the argument in this thread has been dragged to a discussion about feminism, rather than harassment. And the same posters keep bringing it there. Its exactly as I predicted it would go. Since is a thread concerning a documentary about women being harassed in video games, it seems kind of logical that feminism would be dragged into this, doesn't it?
Although yeah, toughening up and not taking everything personal is generally a good attitude to have in the real world as well. Before you go all "MRA" on me (whatever that abbreviation might mean anyway), it's something I'd say to anyone, regardless of gender. The less you care about what people say or think about you, the freer you are.
What would you rather be known for: the person who is good at his work (or at the game) or the person who takes every remark or slur overly personally and goes on a righteous crusade to punish or expose those people?
Scarlett did the former, and she's known for her skill at playing Zerg in SC2.
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On March 17 2015 18:52 maartendq wrote: Although yeah, toughening up and not taking everything personal is generally a good attitude to have in the real world as well. Before you go all "MRA" on me (whatever that abbreviation might mean anyway), it's something I'd say to anyone, regardless of gender. The less you care about what people say or think about you, the freer you are.
so sociopaths confirmed role models?
and on a related note: do you think there was ever a time where it was appropriate to advise african americans as a whole to just toughen up?
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On March 17 2015 20:20 puerk wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 18:52 maartendq wrote: Although yeah, toughening up and not taking everything personal is generally a good attitude to have in the real world as well. Before you go all "MRA" on me (whatever that abbreviation might mean anyway), it's something I'd say to anyone, regardless of gender. The less you care about what people say or think about you, the freer you are.
so sociopaths confirmed role models? and on a related note: do you think there was ever a time where it was appropriate to advise african americans as a whole to just toughen up? Where did I mention sociopaths? Or role models? Unless "people who are rude to others on the internet and in video games" are considered sociopaths nowadays.
There is a huge difference between contemporary gender issues in the western world and 19th century slavery. They are not in the least bit comparable.
Nuancing is really completely lost on people nowadays. You're either pro something or against something. God forbid that your opinion is in the practically endless grey zone between those two extremes. Same thing with the whole Dolce and Gabbana farce. They're both gay but don't agree with gay marriage and IVF, so they must be self-hating homophobes. As if being gay means that you automatically agree with everything the LGBT lobby stands for.
Same thing here again. You either agree with some people's idea(l)s of how women should be treated, or you're some kind male chauvinist pig.
I cannot help but find it ironic that apparently some women demand that special measures be taken against online harassment to them, but at the same time do not want to be seen as the weaker sex. Even more ironic is that the people who may be in power to help them (programmers, designers ... ) are mostly men, effectively turning those women into damsels in distress, which is the opposite of what they want to be.
This wouldn't have happened if the documentary had just been about harassment in the online gaming community in general. It has always been bad. CS back in the pre-1.6 days was just as much a cesspool as DOTA2, LoL and CS:GO are nowadays. This isn't going to end just because female gamers are becoming more numerous and start demanding change because they are somehow more easily offended.
Have people really become this sensitive that they will feel offended when some teenage basement dweller says "nice boobs, take off your shirt"? Just mute, block or ban the guy and move on with your life. Life's to short to bother with that kind of people anyway. Better spend your energy on the people that actually are appreciative of the content you create, or the skill you display. They might not be the most vocal bunch, but they are the majority of your viewers, fans, etc.
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The problem with this sort of documentary is that it assumes a position and then looks for examples of that position as proof, instead of looking at the facts first and then determining what is the real situation.
I am not trying to say that the documentary is flat out wrong, but it definitely is not something we should take at face value.
There is a clear incentive to bias your article in order to appeal to your target audience, and that is something happening rather often.
I know some girls who went throu bad situations in their personal life, in fact I never met one that has not. It is not something that happens only in gaming, and it is not something that only happens to females. People who are mean to others on the internet normally want to create as much emotional damage as they can with their words, not trying to be politically correct. Perhaps, what females do not understand when they talk about a hostile gaming environment towards them, is that it is in fact a hostile environment for everyone.
Men simply tend to be able to handle it better. Its sort of the same idea as in the movie fight club. The idea is not that it is for males only, but that rather no female would be interested in that club.
Females may try to put pressure on the gaming community for it to be more sensible, but the reality is that it will only make males move to a different environment where they can express themselves however they like without having to face social stigma.
If you carefully analyze the lifespan of a community (sports, gaming, cinema, etc), you can see that when a community goes from a predominantly male community to an equal community, it takes very short time for that community to be predominantly women, and dies very soon after that in terms of male contributions to it. Women tend to apply social pressure to males in order to get them to behave accordingly to their expectations (see any 2+ married couple). Men are happier if they are not under pressure (who would have guessed, huh?), and thus they tend to exit the areas where female groups can increase such pressure.
Why do we have sports for men separate from sports for women? Why do we have different shaving razors?
Men have feelings, but do not rely as much on public opinion as women, in many cases the expression "a man is an island" is spot on. A man does not have the same standards as the man standing next to him for success. This means that, while highly competitive, males can respect the achievements of other males, even if they do not share those objectives.
Women have a different approach. They heavily rely on the social status-quo (i think its written that way). They have different objectives in low ambition objectives (like a certain job or a certain trip) but have a very collective approach in terms of success and what it is to succeed.
This is the problem: There is a different form of behavior, a different set of standards and a different tolerance between males and females. There is no way that both can co-exist in the same community without tensions arising.
And anyone who thinks this is a problem that can be solved, will be trying to divide by 0, and only get frustrated at the fact that his efforts are not bringing any fruits.
I for one dont like any for of verbal or physical aggression, and I find it rather comical that humans even get angry ( anger quite simply only damages you, never the person you are angry at, so basically if someone hates me or is angry at me, I rather pity them, than think there is something wrong with me... unless you are a serial killer, then this approach might not be healthy).
I have used force and verbal attacks in the past, but never in order to cause pain (thou it has been a collateral implicit in that behavior), but rather to obtain a certain objective like my own safety or to be left alone, or even to win a competition of sorts where those qualities were required.
And please remember, being offended by something someone says on the internet only depends on how much you care of what others say. Because of this, I really believe that only those who truly love you, will make you cry. Those are the people you should care about.
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On March 17 2015 20:43 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2015 20:20 puerk wrote:On March 17 2015 18:52 maartendq wrote: Although yeah, toughening up and not taking everything personal is generally a good attitude to have in the real world as well. Before you go all "MRA" on me (whatever that abbreviation might mean anyway), it's something I'd say to anyone, regardless of gender. The less you care about what people say or think about you, the freer you are.
so sociopaths confirmed role models? and on a related note: do you think there was ever a time where it was appropriate to advise african americans as a whole to just toughen up? Where did I mention sociopaths? Or role models? Unless "people who are rude to others on the internet and in video games" are considered sociopaths nowadays. There is a huge difference between contemporary gender issues in the western world and 19th century slavery. They are not in the least bit comparable. Nuancing is really completely lost on people nowadays. You're either pro something or against something. God forbid that your opinion is in the practically endless grey zone between those two extremes. Same thing with the whole Dolce and Gabbana farce. They're both gay but don't agree with gay marriage and IVF, so they must be self-hating homophobes. As if being gay means that you automatically agree with everything the LGBT lobby stands for. Same thing here again. You either agree with some people's idea(l)s of how women should be treated, or you're some kind male chauvinist pig. I cannot help but find it ironic that apparently some women demand that special measures be taken against online harassment to them, but at the same time do not want to be seen as the weaker sex. Even more ironic is that the people who may be in power to help them (programmers, designers ... ) are mostly men, effectively turning those women into damsels in distress, which is the opposite of what they want to be. This wouldn't have happened if the documentary had just been about harassment in the online gaming community in general. It has always been bad. CS back in the pre-1.6 days was just as much a cesspool as DOTA2, LoL and CS:GO are nowadays. This isn't going to end just because female gamers are becoming more numerous and start demanding change because they are somehow more easily offended. Have people really become this sensitive that they will feel offended when some teenage basement dweller says "nice boobs, take off your shirt"? Just mute, block or ban the guy and move on with your life. Life's to short to bother with that kind of people anyway. Better spend your energy on the people that actually are appreciative of the content you create, or the skill you display. They might not be the most vocal bunch, but they are the majority of your viewers, fans, etc. As stated before like 17 times in this thread, how to you mute someone in person? Because that is where the comment "Nice Boobs, take off your shirt" was referenced from. A 2012 live stream of a gaming competition where a player sexual harassed a female player. He never apologized and is still part of the community and can still attend events.
If someone is going to sexually harass a women on camera and nothing was really done about it, it pretty much sums up the problem.
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you and that example dude, seriously ... - you bitch and moan at people bringing extremist feminist points of view into discussion and yet you pick and hammer-on the only example of an extremist misogynist you have; you then parade it around making it seem like it's the rule in this kind of sexist harassment and not the exception. - that is a clear case of sexual harassment. we have laws in place to deal with it. so, instead of wondering why the fuck those laws never came into play, you use that example to try and pass more laws/rules/regulations just so people would have more laws to ignore ... - plus, there's no way that's the whole story.
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