It just depends to what extent, and the budget for spying/defense in america speaks volumes.
US Spy Uncovered in German Intelligence Service - Page 2
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Ovid
United Kingdom948 Posts
It just depends to what extent, and the budget for spying/defense in america speaks volumes. | ||
C[h]ili
Germany167 Posts
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urboss
Austria1223 Posts
Don't see it as spying, see it as scouting the opponent to see the build. | ||
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On July 05 2014 03:52 GreenHorizons wrote: Everyone is spying on everyone they can afford to. No government is against spying on other governments it's just a matter of budgeting. The US isn't doing anything different regarding spying than any other country who can afford to does, well, other than repeatedly getting caught. Getting caught spying always caused a diplomatic incident. The US getting called out on this is perfectly normal. IMO you can't afford to continue the same level of spying without it eventually affecting relations in a significant way. The only reason the US and UK got away with ECHELON was that after 9/11 people were more focused on the threat of terrorism and cared less about individual privacy or more cooperative ways of conducting international politics. Now the tide has changed again and lots of people are losing patience both with the US and its intelligence allies. | ||
Grettin
42379 Posts
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
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farvacola
United States18768 Posts
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1648 Posts
On July 05 2014 04:49 hypercube wrote: To be fair they did the kidnappings with the knowledge of European governments. Even in Italy where they 'only' informed their counterparts in military intelligence the CIA agents were subsequently pardoned by the Italian president (who is ironically a communist). The Germans most certainly were not informed re: El-Masri though. And considering the wikileaks stuff about the pressure the Americans put on in order to delay people talking about it afterwards - I'm far from convinced that the Italians actually knew. Rather, it seems far from unlikely that the Italian president was simply told to pardon the CIA people. Europe desperately needs to overcome 2000 years of history and start standing together. Most of Europe's citizens are very hostile to the farce that is the US war on terror. But as long as they are allowed to bully our leaders around individually that simply doesn't matter. | ||
eightym
United States76 Posts
But you never know if there's more to the story or not. Given the history of the CIA... I'm going to have to say probably not. | ||
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On July 05 2014 05:08 farvacola wrote: Kudos to the non-American posters who can approach a topic like this with some degree of nuance. To those looking to sing a one note song full of anti-American sentiment and an ignorance of foreign policy, enjoy yourselves! Are you saying that anyone who strongly disagrees with US foreign policy is anti-American? | ||
farvacola
United States18768 Posts
On July 05 2014 05:11 hypercube wrote: Are you saying that anyone who strongly disagrees with US foreign policy is anti-American? Lol no | ||
Slaughter
United States20250 Posts
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CYFAWS
Sweden275 Posts
On July 05 2014 03:35 VanSCPurge wrote: You people act like every country on earth doesn't have spies. We all spy on each other, it happens. An American spy got caught. He wasn't very good at his job obviously. You can stop with the anti-american dog-pile please. that's such a massive pile of chauvinist bullshit. the ONE and only country in the history of the earth that ever came close to americas standard level of double play, cheating, treachery and spying was the soviet. since then it's team america world police, and since american foreign politics makes sauron look like a pretty decent guy that is a very bad thing. sweden has ofc been at the heart of american terrorism in europe, but that might get fixed after elections, and hopefully we will make the documentation of americas (and to some extent our) crimes available. hoping for global political isolation of the US, terrorist rogue states should not be dealt with diplomatically. | ||
Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On July 05 2014 04:53 Ovid wrote: All countries able to spy on each other do, it would be naive to suggest otherwise. It just depends to what extent, and the budget for spying/defense in america speaks volumes. Israel has done it to the Americans, so even the closest so called allies cant be fully trusted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard On July 05 2014 05:22 CYFAWS wrote: that's such a massive pile of chauvinist bullshit. the ONE and only country in the history of the earth that ever came close to americas standard level of double play, cheating, treachery and spying was the soviet. since then it's team america world police, and since american foreign politics makes sauron look like a pretty decent guy that is a very bad thing. sweden has ofc been at the heart of american terrorism in europe, but that might get fixed after elections, and hopefully we will make the documentation of americas (and to some extent our) crimes available. hoping for global political isolation of the US, terrorist rogue states should not be dealt with diplomatically. And Swedish Noam Chomsky joins us. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
On July 05 2014 03:58 disodi wrote: Regardless if this is true, Europe definitely needs to look another direction cause the US has proven to be quite the unreliable ally the past decade... Yeah by all means try that, not that I am condoning any US foreign policy. But such a blank statement when only one side of the Alliance supports the other through bases, technical support, trade rights etc. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On July 05 2014 05:10 KlaCkoN wrote: The Germans most certainly were not informed re: El-Masri though. And considering the wikileaks stuff about the pressure the Americans put on in order to delay people talking about it afterwards - I'm far from convinced that the Italians actually knew. Rather, it seems far from unlikely that the Italian president was simply told to pardon the CIA people. The head of military intelligence certainly knew. He and his deputy were sentenced to jail for their involvement (although later acquitted due to state secret laws). Berlusconi claimed he hadn't known but he opposed the trial. In any case there are numerous reports of EU governments knowing that the US used their airports to transfer kidnapped people for torture to Egypt. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=IM-PRESS&reference=20090218IPR49768&language=EN Basically it's disingenuous to portray EU governments as unknowing victims. Maybe some were coerced, some were certainly willing participants. And even those can't be proven to have participated, like Germany, continue to defend the perpetrators by refusing to ask for their extradiction. Europe desperately needs to overcome 2000 years of history and start standing together. Most of Europe's citizens are very hostile to the farce that is the US war on terror. But as long as they are allowed to bully our leaders around individually that simply doesn't matter. Couldn't agree more on that one. | ||
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On July 05 2014 05:41 oneofthem wrote:US and europe share core interests and values. LOL no | ||
mahnini
United States6862 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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