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Remember to post respectfully, but feel free to voice how you actually feel about the change |
Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On May 30 2014 04:05 raynpelikoneet wrote: But there is no change in anything except for what i just said, is there?
I'm not sure what you're referring to, but I suspect I will not have to change much about my own moderation. Guys like ShiaoPi will have to shape up though
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Yes i know you don't, some other people do though.
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On May 30 2014 03:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: So if hosts (whoever they are) agreed with what you guys are proposing in the first place why is it not happening already? I mean, this has been talked before and people were in on that then. Why don't hosts act like it then?
Honestly the topic in itself is good but the way it was presented felt like it's somehow player's "fault" that we need this sort of "change" when in fact nothing changes except for hosts using their banhammer more fairly to keep up good atmosphere. Precise, it's already happening in my area I just haven't got anything running yet.
You will not know what you are in for in my games. But, no matter what if you are needlessly a jerk I ban you pretty fast just like any other host
Before I was like whatever and even waived my own rules in Yuma because I felt I had been unclear.
Stay CHUPAZI my friends no need for hijole
Unless you want to say stuff like "u suk @ lyfe" then go away
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We should all be in politics.
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On May 30 2014 05:08 Palmar wrote: We should all be in politics.
We ARE a forum full of people who like to hang out and argue.
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On May 30 2014 05:17 Blazinghand wrote:We ARE a forum full of people who like to hang out and argue.
Yes but ideally we would be discussing on this forum and trying to get a consensus that leads results. We are like the corrupt parliament that lost track of what is important and runs around in circles
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Also its adorable how many people seem to be stuck in the "I WONT ACCEPT ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY ITS NOT SELFISH ITS MY FREEDOM" phase
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Blazinghand
United States25546 Posts
On May 30 2014 05:26 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 05:17 Blazinghand wrote:On May 30 2014 05:08 Palmar wrote: We should all be in politics.
We ARE a forum full of people who like to hang out and argue. Yes but ideally we would be discussing on this forum and trying to get a consensus that leads results. We are like the corrupt parliament that lost track of what is important and runs around in circles
You wouldn't happen to live in America, would you?
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On May 30 2014 05:08 Palmar wrote: We should all be in politics.
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On May 30 2014 05:26 Erandorr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 05:17 Blazinghand wrote:On May 30 2014 05:08 Palmar wrote: We should all be in politics.
We ARE a forum full of people who like to hang out and argue. Yes but ideally we would be discussing on this forum and trying to get a consensus that leads results. We are like the corrupt parliament that lost track of what is important and runs around in circles yes.
On May 30 2014 05:30 Erandorr wrote: Also its adorable how many people seem to be stuck in the "I WONT ACCEPT ANY KIND OF AUTHORITY ITS NOT SELFISH ITS MY FREEDOM" phase no.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
So, the reason why I haven't put my thoughts into the thread yet is because I felt I didn't really have any real opinions either way on the matter. I didn't stop playing because of the attitudes of people, or any extra responsibilities. I simply stopped because a number of those who I enjoyed playing games with didn't play as much (Wiggles, VE, Eran, Draz, Toad to name a few)
I genuinely don't feel like it's much of a change, just that maybe the OP was worded a bit wrongly. In my eyes, it means people just have to look again before they post, which is what you should be doing anyways? If you take a step back for a second and make sure your post isn't unnecessarily offensive, wouldn't that also let you make sure your post doesn't have some unintentional indication of your role/alignment?
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I think that mafia on TL would benefit from these changes. It's a pain to play here, or at least it was when I stopped playing. The spam, the insults, the attacks... it was just brutal. What was it, one of the TL Mafia games in the forties or fifties, featured two of the scum making pages of posts against each other of just absolute shit. It was miserable to play through. It's just not fun to play in those kinds of environments.
You read some of the older games, the mind games that went on behind the scenes, and it just looks so exciting. Building cases, fighting constructively to prove your point, applying analysis instead of lynching the people who aren't spamming... I want TL Mafia to look like that. Instead, we get games that are just painful to even read, much less think about what's really going on.
I think that TL should strive to run a tighter ship. I really don't give a shit about "this is my play style" or "this is the current meta". The current meta is fucking stupid. Forum mafia should be a game about wits and outsmarting your opponent, rather than just making yourself the loudest. I fully support anything that allows the host to clean up the game and make it more engaging to the players and the observers.
Given these changes, I would definitely think about coming back and hosting, if not playing.
e: It was TL Mafia LI aka the one that Mattchew (the cohost) accidentally ended by revealing the entire scum team in the day post flip (nuttin but love for mattchew <3) Day 2 started on Page 54. Night 2 started on Page 114. Compare that to Aperture Mafia, which had roughly the same number of pages, and went on for another 8 days total.
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THis change will rip the heart out of the com munity
as much as i have loved TL for the last 4 years, TL moderation is anal to an extent that is borderline embarrassing and a little pathetic.Our abiltily to be rude to each other in a way that we all should know isn't serious is something i very much appreiciate. The fact that emotions run so high is testament to how important and impactful these games can become and is a large part of why people continue to come back even after starcraft (numerically speaking) died.
It's also not am overreaction the shit that gets said here is so much worse than tons of post that get warnings and bans elsewhere on tl and enforcement of the site wide rules as a whole would gut this community
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On May 30 2014 08:51 ghost_403 wrote: I think that mafia on TL would benefit from these changes. It's a pain to play here, or at least it was when I stopped playing. The spam, the insults, the attacks... it was just brutal. What was it, one of the TL Mafia games in the forties or fifties, featured two of the scum making pages of posts against each other of just absolute shit. It was miserable to play through. It's just not fun to play in those kinds of environments.
You read some of the older games, the mind games that went on behind the scenes, and it just looks so exciting. Building cases, fighting constructively to prove your point, applying analysis instead of lynching the people who aren't spamming... I want TL Mafia to look like that. Instead, we get games that are just painful to even read, much less think about what's really going on.
I think that TL should strive to run a tighter ship. I really don't give a shit about "this is my play style" or "this is the current meta". The current meta is fucking stupid. Forum mafia should be a game about wits and outsmarting your opponent, rather than just making yourself the loudest. I fully support anything that allows the host to clean up the game and make it more engaging to the players and the observers.
I fully endorse this post.
The argument that "X's opinion shouldn't count because he doesn't play anymore" is a bad principle here since it biases your vote in favor of the people who haven't yet left because of the toxic atmosphere.
"Mafia is a game about deception lies and getting under people's skin" is not a very good principle because allowing some people to act like jerks causes people who do not like this atmosphere to remove themselves from the community. In the end, you will get a community that drifts more toward being jerks.
A lot of people are coming from the FREEDOM point of view. Usually the freedom point of view is that you should be able to do whatever you want as long as it doesn't impose on other people. I.E. you can do anything that doesn't impose negative externalities on other people. Unfortunately being a jerk does harm the community by driving away people who do not enjoy the toxic atmosphere.
Basically we have externalities and unstable equilibrum as reasons why we should not allow people to do whatever they want.
As ghost alludes to in his post, older games used to be more intellectual. Games now are more emotional and less intellectual. This is a bad trend since emotional games just lead to an atmosphere that will be unappealing for a significant group of potential players. Sure, it can sometimes be effective to play an emotional style, but you have some pretty nasty side effects that come out of it. First, it drives away players. Second, it encourages more spam since people are speaking a lot and thinking little. This leads to poorer game quality and a less healthy community.
I don't have an opinion on the specific proposals made here, but I do think that the old games provide a good model for a healthy community and how this game should be played. The games were fun, funny, and lighthearted. Deceptions and manipulations were largely intellectual rather than emotional, which allowed for wide strategic options without the side effect of creating a toxic atmosphere. Behavioral discussions didn't come up since it wasn't an issue. But now behavioral issues are an issue, and I don't think continuing with a wild-west philosophy is appropriate here.
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These changes are... AMAZING. <3
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After reading the thread I should elaborate a bit. I'm a little surprised this has created so much controversy...
The way that TL Mafia operates right now you have a bunch of people who go into a pool of games. These people are all exposed to the same atmosphere. There's definitely a fair bit of name-calling/dick-wagging/"toxicity" presently. So what comes out, then, are ONLY the people who have thick enough skins to deal with this remain actively involved in games.
But what's more, games are INCREDIBLY long. Having the stamina to go through 100+ page games takes a very special type of person. This weeds out EVEN MORE people from what's a already small pool of people.
So if you remove "toxicity" to deal with issue #1 and spamming to help with issue #2 then you're going to appeal to a WIDER AUDIENCE. As such, I don't understand why anyone here is so strongly against these rules. Implementing these should help create a larger player pool. And yes, GAMES WILL FEEL DIFFERENT. But I can't understand why so many people here feel that being an ass to other people is inherently necessary to playing a good game of mafia. If you're the type of person who's okay with the current player base and the current community atmosphere, keep in mind not everyone thinks like you or behaves like you. Should you have rules that make everyone more civil, you'll attract people that like games that are more civil. It seriously blows my mind that there seems to be a consensus on these forums that numbers are declining, but then there's a perfectly viable solution presented and there's so much resistance.
But if ch-changes are too hard for this forum, here's an alternative suggestion:
Test-drive these rules on a special game. Call it "Nicety Mafia" or whatever. See how it feels. I'm wholely confident you'll find that it's entirely possible to play without being complete dicks to each other.
And another suggestion a bit unrelated to the rule changes: And as for my situation, while I would certainly like to come back and play here again in the future, I've got my own real life stuff going on right now. I would probably fall in category #2. Games are too large for me to commit to keeping up with presently... I think another thing that the mafia thread could do is to work on the formats for games a bit more. It may be unpopular with many of the more active members but having a few games that are heavily spam-free, as in like 5-10 posts max/day ("Mafia-lite" if you will) might bring more people in. The games may not be as high-quality as the more intense normal ones we have here, but anything you can do to get more people involved is a good thing, right? If you're dead serious about attracting more people, then you should try some new things... Imho the absolute biggest barrier to forum mafia is just how much posting is expected. I would say most people when active here float around from time to time through all the formats (normal/themed/etc), the real trick is JUST GETTING THEM HERE. And less time-intensive games would be another way of accomplishing that.
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On May 30 2014 16:54 goodkarma wrote: After reading the thread I should elaborate a bit. I'm a little surprised this has created so much controversy...
The way that TL Mafia operates right now you have a bunch of people who go into a pool of games. These people are all exposed to the same atmosphere. There's definitely a fair bit of name-calling/dick-wagging/"toxicity" presently. So what comes out, then, are ONLY the people who have thick enough skins to deal with this remain actively involved in games.
But what's more, games are INCREDIBLY long. Having the stamina to go through 100+ post games takes a very special type of person. This weeds out EVEN MORE people from what's a already small pool of people.
So if you remove "toxicity" to deal with issue #1 and spamming to help with issue #2 then you're going to appeal to a WIDER AUDIENCE. As such, I don't understand why anyone here is so strongly against these rules. Implementing these should help create a larger player pool. And yes, GAMES WILL FEEL DIFFERENT. But I can't understand why so many people here feel that being an ass to other people is inherently necessary to playing a good game of mafia. If you're the type of person who's okay with the current player base and the current community atmosphere, keep in mind not everyone thinks like you or behaves like you. Should you have rules that make everyone more civil, you'll attract people that like games that are more civil. It seriously blows my mind that there seems to be a consensus on these forums that numbers are declining, but then there's a perfectly viable solution presented and there's so much resistance.
But if ch-changes are too hard for this forum, here's an alternative suggestion:
Test-drive these rules on a special game. Call it "Nicety Mafia" or whatever. See how it feels. I'm wholely confident you'll find that it's entirely possible to play without being complete dicks to each other.
And another suggestion a bit unrelated to the rule changes: And as for my situation, while I would certainly like to come back and play here again in the future, I've got my own real life stuff going on right now. I would probably fall in category #2. Games are too large for me to commit to keeping up with presently... I think another thing that the mafia thread could do is to work on the formats for games a bit more. It may be unpopular with many of the more active members but having a few games that are heavily spam-free, as in like 5-10 posts max/day ("Mafia-lite" if you will) might bring more people in. The games may not be as high-quality as the more intense normal ones we have here, but anything you can do to get more people involved is a good thing, right? If you're dead serious about attracting more people, then you should try some new things... Imho the absolute biggest barrier to forum mafia is just how much posting is expected. I would say most people when active here float around from time to time through all the formats (normal/themed/etc), the real trick is JUST GETTING THEM HERE. And less time-intensive games would be another way of accomplishing that.
Yes to bold
"Basically, hold the TL Mafia forum to the same high standards you'd hold the rest of TL. " <-- scary + Show Spoiler +
On May 30 2014 03:40 Foolishness wrote:Going to repost this because it's true: Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 11:28 Ace wrote: From what I understand they just want to bring TL Mafia more inline with the general site behavior requirements. You're still allowed to be funny when insulting people and post gifs. They are just trying to make it explicit in terms of obvious personal attacks and behavior that would scare new players away.
I don't post much on other forums on the site but I'm pretty sure you only get banned when you go really overboard on the insults which is what I assume the point of all this discussion is. And this one as well: Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 03:02 Holyflare wrote: Look, this whole post could have just been worded like:
"In light of recent behaviour i've asked the hosts to be a little bit stricter in terms of aggression and spam! They will warn you first and then if it continues you will be modkilled. Everything is at the hosts discretion but I have told them to be a little less leniant. We'd like more people to join and we want to start posting games to show off the fun we can have. In order for them to do that our games need to look a little more refined than current standings."
Nobody would have many problems with that ^ but the OP was worded so that every bit of aggression and caps lock and anger would not be tolerated at all. Even contemplating about TL bans...? So pretty much NOTHING is changing but the hosts being a little more pro-active in behaviour warning and that's it.
Let me start by addressing this post: Show nested quote +On May 29 2014 04:09 Holyflare wrote:On May 29 2014 04:03 yamato77 wrote: There seem to be quite a few people here intent on ignoring the complaints of mafia players about the quality of games and the state of behavior enforcement on this forum. No surprise, they happen to be the ones still actively playing, so they obviously don't see any problem with the state of the game. They shouldn't have any say in changing this forum, because they are biased.
See how stupid and reductive that argument is? Stop being obstinate and realize that there are valid complaints from players who have largely stopped playing. They are telling you why they stopped, and asking you to fix it. Is it really so ridiculous as to accept stricter moderation in order to make playing on this forum more palatable? Nobody is really arguing that being stricter is a problem at all? They are arguing that: a) tl bans shouldn't be used at all b) the op was worded like some thing from a dictatorship where nothing would stand ever c) this was out of the blue and decided in secret rather than together people don't care if hosts become a bit stricter and enforce the rules slightly more as long as they get warned first and then modkilled after
*phew* agreed
On May 29 2014 15:18 GMarshal wrote: Are people actually reading my posts?
No, just skimming
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United Kingdom35817 Posts
On May 30 2014 15:29 Incognito wrote: As ghost alludes to in his post, older games used to be more intellectual. Games now are more emotional and less intellectual. This is a bad trend since emotional games just lead to an atmosphere that will be unappealing for a significant group of potential players. Sure, it can sometimes be effective to play an emotional style, but you have some pretty nasty side effects that come out of it. First, it drives away players. Second, it encourages more spam since people are speaking a lot and thinking little. This leads to poorer game quality and a less healthy community. Behavioral discussions didn't come up since it wasn't an issue. But now behavioral issues are an issue, and I don't think continuing with a wild-west philosophy is appropriate here.
On May 28 2014 18:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: And I may be showing my "vet status" (whatever that phrase means) here but good god things are behaviorally better now than when I started imo. For starters there is actually a mafia "community" that didn't exist to the same degree and at the same time the number of gigantic forum halting ban list discussions has fallen as well (anyone remember the debate to perm BM?). So in my opinion, drastic change is not needed. Green + red comparisons: funny.
To the blue alone: we have far more active players and games than we used to in your oh-so-wonderful heydey.
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On May 30 2014 16:54 goodkarma wrote: [...] Test-drive these rules on a special game. Call it "Nicety Mafia" or whatever. See how it feels. I'm wholely confident you'll find that it's entirely possible to play without being complete dicks to each other. [...]
Can we please do this? And not just one special game, lets try out like 3-5 special games and talk things over between each game. Maybe after the 5th game it will be such a succes that old style games will have completely fallen out of favor with most of the community. Problem solved without forcing anything on anyone.
Also @goodkarma Ver and Hapahauli just hosted a post restriction game which was pretty good. Actually, I didn't count but I think that just as many players quit because of time as because of manners. Maybe we should have more post restriction games as well?
On May 30 2014 18:33 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 15:29 Incognito wrote: As ghost alludes to in his post, older games used to be more intellectual. Games now are more emotional and less intellectual. This is a bad trend since emotional games just lead to an atmosphere that will be unappealing for a significant group of potential players. Sure, it can sometimes be effective to play an emotional style, but you have some pretty nasty side effects that come out of it. First, it drives away players. Second, it encourages more spam since people are speaking a lot and thinking little. This leads to poorer game quality and a less healthy community. Behavioral discussions didn't come up since it wasn't an issue. But now behavioral issues are an issue, and I don't think continuing with a wild-west philosophy is appropriate here. Show nested quote +On May 28 2014 18:16 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: And I may be showing my "vet status" (whatever that phrase means) here but good god things are behaviorally better now than when I started imo. For starters there is actually a mafia "community" that didn't exist to the same degree and at the same time the number of gigantic forum halting ban list discussions has fallen as well (anyone remember the debate to perm BM?). So in my opinion, drastic change is not needed. Green + red comparisons: funny. To the blue alone: we have far more active players and games than we used to in your oh-so-wonderful heydey. I don't think his point was that it drives away more players than it attracts, just that it drives away players.
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