Naniwa released from Alliance - Page 15
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seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
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Xoronius
Germany6362 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:30 Morphage wrote: Yeah you can say that Huk, Idra, Jinro, Mana, Nerchio and Thorzain were among the best foreigners, but Naniwa and Stephano are a tier above in my opinion. And to be honest I don't think Jinro's achievements have that much weight considering the players who attended the MLG he won. As for his GSL semi finals, sure that's cool, but the game was in it's very early stages and after that he dropped off quite rapidly. A valid opinion, I´m a bit unsure about it as well, since there are different things, you have to wage against eachother. Going purely by big tourney wins, HuK has an edge against Naniwa, if you go by earnings, Naniwa is hugely ahead against him. Jinro is also a weird case, since he has only one big tourney win and 27k earnings, but GSL is so big, that I feel, he does'nt get enough credit just by quantitative factors I'd say, if I take a while longer my ranking would probably look like this: + Show Spoiler + Tier 1: Stephano Tier 2: Naniwa [small gap] HuK, Nerchio, MaNa, ThorZaIN, Idra, (maybe Jinro, maybe Sen) Tier 3: (In random order) (maybe Jinro, maybe Sen),Snute ,Dimaga, Scarlett, Vortix, Hasu, Luci, Ret Could we agree on that? | ||
Sakray
France2198 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote: Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers This is absolutely bullshit, if forfeiting is a huge affront, then why do they give the right to do so to the players ? Jeez | ||
FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:11 Ctone23 wrote: Highly skilled people get fired all the time. You lose interest, don't show up for work, etc, you will get sent to the door. Oh i agree with you alright man | ||
Morphage
France492 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:39 Xoronius wrote: A valid opinion, I´m a bit unsure about it as well, since there are different things, you have to wage against eachother. Going purely by big tourney wins, HuK has an edge against Naniwa, if you go by earnings, Naniwa is hugely ahead against him. Jinro is also a weird case, since he has only one big tourney win and 27k earnings, but GSL is so big, that I feel, he does'nt get enough credit just by quantitative factors I'd say, if I take a while longer my ranking would probably look like this: + Show Spoiler + Tier 1: Stephano Tier 2: Naniwa [small gap] HuK, Nerchio, MaNa, ThorZaIN, Idra, (maybe Jinro, maybe Sen) Tier 3: (In random order) (maybe Jinro, maybe Sen),Snute ,Dimaga, Scarlett, Vortix, Hasu, Luci, Ret Could we agree on that? Yeah I can definitely agree with that. Comparing players is quite hard, like you said, what metrics are we supposed to use? earnings, tournament wins, etc...But it's fair to say that Stephano is tier 1, and then for tier 2 it gets more complicated, but I would still put Naniwa as head of tier 2. | ||
seoul_kiM
United States545 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:41 Sakray wrote: This is absolutely bullshit, if forfeiting is a huge affront, then why do they give the right to do so to the players ? Jeez Maybe Naniwa became very ill, or an emergency occurred before the game started. It's not hard to think of excusable uses for a forfeit. Disinterest in a game that you're being paid to play in a binding contract doesn't lend itself to forfeiture. It's an immature move. | ||
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote: Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers Dont be dumb. We were ready to replace Taeja two days earlier because he thought his hands may be too bad to play. We literally replaced the best CS:GO analyst in the world ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT. We're really really good at improvising and making shit work - if a player doesn't want to play, it's ok. We just replace him. Jarett Cale wasn't involved in the event until we fired Thorin....it was all improvised and put together in the final hours to make the event work...it was a miracle that he was on site. Shit happens. We deal with it. If a player doesn't want to play we can and will replace him with someone who does. Watch this magic: Naniwa: "I dont want to play" ESL: "Jaedong want a direct invite to fix the problem?" Jaedong: "Yes" Tada. There's no ''affront''. This isn't kespa. We just want to make make cool shit so people can enjoy it. | ||
suddendeathTV
Sweden388 Posts
I'll release a 1 hour 'Reflections' interview with @NaNiwaSC2 tonight at 22 CET. | ||
mikkmagro
Malta1513 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:50 Kennigit wrote: Dont be dumb. We were ready to replace Taeja two days earlier because he thought his hands may be too bad to play. We literally replaced the best CS:GO analyst in the world ON THE DAY OF THE EVENT. We're really really good at improvising and making shit work - if a player doesn't want to play, it's ok. We just replace him. Jarett Cale wasn't involved in the event until we fired Thorin....it was all improvised and put together in the final hours to make the event work...it was a miracle that he was on site. Shit happens. We deal with it. If a player doesn't want to play we can and will replace him with someone who does. Watch this magic: Naniwa: "I dont want to play" ESL: "Jaedong want a direct invite to fix the problem?" Jaedong: "Yes" Tada. There's no ''affront''. This isn't kespa. We just want to make make cool shit so people can enjoy it. b-b-b-b-ut hasu | ||
veilchen
13 Posts
On March 21 2014 16:31 iNcontroL wrote: nope.. actually Rotterdam and I are very different! pff, what do you know? | ||
vult
United States9386 Posts
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JasonVP
United States8 Posts
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Spect8rCraft
649 Posts
On March 21 2014 21:44 Odecey wrote: I feel compelled to put a few things straight here. Firstly, Naniwa did not do anything wrong by forfeiting against Polt. It's completely within each player's rights to forfeit for whatever reason. The question is whether he did something wrong by retiring before his contract was up. If the contract stipulates that the contractee cannot terminate it himself, then forcing this on Alliancce was wrong. If it did not however, then there is insufficient information to decide whether he was in the wrong on this point. We don't know when/how Naniwa informed his team that he was no longer playing. If he did this when he stopped, the situation at IEM should never have occured: Alliance should merely have released him then, when he expressed he had no intention to keep playing. Naniwa is completely right when points out that he was not required to transfer his spot at IEM, after it became clear to him that he did not want to compete. Such a decision is up to the event organizer, who determines the criteria for competing, who according to Naniwa were informed that he did not wish to participate. When they pressured him into going, they set themselves up for this to happen. I also want to address the hate mongering that has surrounded Naniwa ever since he entered the scene: It's pathetic how the community at large have assigned him as a punchingbag because of his demeanor, frankness, and impulsiveness. These personality traits do not give you a licence to bully a person. By doing so, you're starting a vicious cycle where he will respond spontaneusly and emotionally, which will set him up for further abuse. All these comments of "I hate him" "Has he been diagnosed yet?" "What a loser." are frankly cruel, and ironically go way beyond any wrongdoing he may have committed. The willingness of every forumgoer and his dog to jump on every situation he handles suboptimally, with the contempt of someone witnessing a warcrime, is a cyber assault of negativity, and you wonder why he calls this community disgusting? The hypocracy is so ripe you can taste it. I'm glad he's leaving. He will be better off out of the microscope people have put him under, free to be himself without all this judgement. This will probably be a good time for me to leave aswell, in the sense that I won't be posting here ever again. Unfortunately, it still seems like the best place to find tournament results, schedules, etc, so I guess I'll still be using that. Don't ever think this place is above the standards of the internet at large: It's not. I concur that none of the technicalities can be criticized. Naniwa was free to forfeit, the legalese is still sketchy since we're only hearing Naniwa's side, and if he was pressured into playing, then he is not entirely at fault. Yes, the community does at times (probably every time; I wasn't here at Naniwa's professional birth) dog Naniwa, for right or wrong. Yet, the reversal of vice is also true: Naniwa's poor demeanor meant that he incited, if not invited, such hatemongering. I've never viewed Naniwa highly or lowly; he was a well established Protoss player, who at times could rival even Korean pros in their prime. He has provided as many crisp and enjoyable games as he had scrappy and sloppy games; he would as often mess up his wall as often as he would utterly crush his opponents in a wall of gateway units. He's had his slumps and he's had his strides, and his record shows an illustrious history of high-end finishes in numerous well-renowned tournaments. Hell, I didn't even think Naniwa was very BM. I'd thought it was some run-of-the-mill banter, much like how anyone else not named Idra would often rib at their opponents. Heck, I thought Ryung's "IMBA" moment was probably a bigger splash, though then again I suppose I don't follow Naniwa with a hawk's eye. We're not omniscient creatures, right? But after IEM, it'd be folly not to criticize Naniwa for what he did. Not for the technicalities of the situation, which, as I have stated above, were perfectly legit. But it does call his professionalism into question. Using the chat in-game is a general taboo (and I mean very general, as some things such as congratulations often get a pass), not to mention, if I'm not mistaken, against some WCS protocol. Naniwa's not the first person to experience soundproofing issues; games prior have had similar issues, including, apparently, one with Naniwa himself being a participant. Yet surely there were other ways of expressing that sentiment than in chat; most players have made it known post-game, and he himself could have (and did) make it known to the officials immediately after the match. Furthermore, he has followed up, as well as primed, the incident with numerous comments, including the one posted here, condemning the community or some such. Yes, TeamLiquid is not immune to Internet pitchforking, shocking, isn't it? And yet, very rarely does the community have so many barbs for one individual. There's no spearing of Innovation, of Maru, of Life, of Soulkey, of Mvp, of Taeja, of Creator, of Rain, of Stephano, of Jaedong, of Zest, of Thorzain, of Scarlett, of Grubby... Yes, they get a lashing every now and again, maybe for playing an agonizing game (Stephano's specialty and notoriety), for some controversial matter (Scarlett notably), for being (in)consistent (sOs comes to mind). And yet, none of them have gained as much notoriety as Naniwa. Some people like Maru's aggressive playstyle, others don't, so what? Sometimes MC jabs another player before the match, shots fired, I guess? DeMuslim forfeited Shoutcraft America? He better have a good explanation for this. Only Idra has incited about as much dislike, and even he managed to hang back as a commentator for a while, and his exit was nowhere as explosive as Naniwa's. So it does beg the question: why? And Naniwa is the answer. His demeanor is the most glaring aspect that has made this series of events transpire. And how he handled IEM was a message to the masses, a message to Alliance, a message to IEM. A world of alternatives, and that was how he decided to leave the game; a world of fire might be overkill, but criticism he is not free of. So that he leaves the game? Absolutely fine. Is the community a jerk sometimes? More often than not. Will time heal all wounds? A question only time can answer. But he did burn bridges with his exit, undeniably. Say what you will about his gaming skills and history, but if he returns, the burden of coming back is his to bear and his only. I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you here, but I simply implore, that you needn't leave merely because of a sour note in the community. Every game and every show and every aspect of society will have that brown note, but it's merely a tiny smudge in the grand scheme. I suppose the TL;DR is: It's not the technicalities that Naniwa should be criticized for, it's his PR management of the situation. Yes, the community is not free of hatemongering, it spikes here and there and more often than not, but why is Naniwa the select few of such extreme tactics? See it from both sides; don't be a hater, but don't be a kiss-ass, either. | ||
traderjoe
Germany69 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
No...they...didn't. If Naniwa had put his foot down and said "no, I'm not going" there is no way they could have forced him to go short of tying his hands and feet together and strapped him into a plane before physically dragging him to the studio and tying him to the chair in the booth. Which I'm pretty sure they didn't do. What they COULD do is say they'll sack him if he didn't go. Or to try to appeal to his sense of reason or loyalty to the team or whatever. Or to warn that fines will be applied to his salary if he didn't. Those things are NOT the same as forcing him to go. If nothing else he could have quit and it'd have been pretty hard for them to touch him at all. So the simplest assumption is that they warned him that he'd be punished (likely financially) if he didn't go. And consequently he went (in hope of still getting paid? I don't know, speculating, there has to be SOME reason for him to have gone given that he clearly didn't want to be there). Nobody forced him to get on the plane to go there. Nobody forced him to the studio. And certainly nobody forced him into the booth because I certainly didn't see someone drag him in there and strap him to the chair. He chose all of those things. He then also chose to act as he did. Therefore the responsibility for what happened falls entirely on his own head. He could have quit beforehand. He didn't. Instead he chose to go. And that choice came with consequent responsibilities that he didn't live up to. | ||
amd098
Korea (North)1366 Posts
On March 21 2014 23:25 Scorch wrote: Naniwa stopped playing the game while he still had a contract going. Naniwa was unwilling to fulfill his contractual obligations, so they had to push him to play in the tournament. Naniwa publicly announced he's quitting SC2. Naniwa forfeited the tournament, which was a huge affront to the organizers and fans and damaged his own reputation and that of his team and sponsors. Of course Alliance releases him. What's there to discuss? Yep, you try this with any other job and you'll be fired. Unprofessional and childish behavior. | ||
Furikawari
France2522 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:10 amd098 wrote: Yep, you try this with any other job and you'll be fired. Unprofessional and childish behavior. Exactly. What some people here dont get (and amongst them obviously, Naniwa), is that it's a JOB. You have to be a professional, not an arrogant child. | ||
Holdenintherye
Canada1441 Posts
While I can understand what he's talking about, at the end of the day he was just being unprofessional. Simple as that. As a pro player, he should've at least played out a series, even if it was all 4gates, rather than just forfeit with that soundproofing bullshit. | ||
Dingodile
4123 Posts
On March 22 2014 00:12 Furikawari wrote: Exactly. What some people here dont get (and amongst them obviously, Naniwa), is that it's a JOB. You have to be a professional, not an arrogant child. aha... and if your contract says you do NOT have to be in every tournament? I am sure players are allowed to cancel one or two (of ~20) tournaments yearly for whatever reason. edit: as we can see nani's behavior to A was (very) professional except on the tournament. | ||
Grimmjow
Canada15 Posts
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