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On February 17 2014 09:50 crazyweasel wrote:I'll share another side of this matter that way we can have an ecclectic view of the positions there are. http://www.marxist.com/the-new-coup-plans-of-the-venezuelan-bourgeoisie.htmI really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports.
Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing.
"rancid opposition"
"Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...)
"hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods"
"the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists
"it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests
"To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great...
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
"For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression
"It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy."
"It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
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Interesting to see if the US really is up to their usual regime manipulation again (maybe another 70 years and we'll know)
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On February 17 2014 23:10 419 wrote:so its axiomatic that any problems in a ~workers paradise~ are caused by counter-revolutionary forces hahahaha Show nested quote +you'd think economic liberalism would be the ideology springing to mind when talking about violent repression in south america.
apparently, Pinochet can make omelettes without taking his country straight to the third world, which cannot be said about senors Chavez and Castro
I don't want to "protect" Castro... But Cuba was fucked since the US embargo started, Cuba actually improved when compared to the "pre"-Castro era... And if you compare it with some other caribean islands it also doesn't look THAT bad today.
I in no way want to defend Castro, he's a murderer and a tyrant, but blaming only him for Cubas failure is a bit simplistic.
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On February 18 2014 03:23 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 23:10 419 wrote:so its axiomatic that any problems in a ~workers paradise~ are caused by counter-revolutionary forces hahahaha you'd think economic liberalism would be the ideology springing to mind when talking about violent repression in south america.
apparently, Pinochet can make omelettes without taking his country straight to the third world, which cannot be said about senors Chavez and Castro I don't want to "protect" Castro... But Cuba was fucked since the US embargo started, Cuba actually improved when compared to the "pre"-Castro era... And if you compare it with some other caribean islands it also doesn't look THAT bad today. I in no way want to defend Castro, he's a murderer and a tyrant, but blaming only him for Cubas failure is a bit simplistic.
It's also entirely accurate. Socialism destroyed Cuba's economy in the ~2 years before the US embargo. The average Cuban farmer's income was higher than that in France in 1959. That was over by 1960. The US dollar and the Cuban peso were at even value in 1959. That was over by 1960. In 1958 Cuba had a higher standard of living than any country in South or Central America. That was over by 1960. Che Guevara was appointed "Minister of Industries" in 1961. He later admitted he'd royally fucked that job up as the Cuban per-capita income which pre-revolution had been higher than that in America dropped to Third-World level. The situation had deteriorated so much that by 1964 the Soviets told Castro get rid of Che or no more money from us (the USSR over the course of 3 decades gave Cuba $130 billion, ten times the amount the US spent on the Marshall Plan for all of Western Europe. Yet Cuba remained impoverished). I can't remember which it was right now but in 1960 either Mikoyan or Gromyko visited Cuba and when Castro told him he needed loads of moolah to develop Cuba he laughed and said in response, "This is an undeveloped country?" Well it sure soon would be. They built factories that never produced a single product, they tried to cultivate plants that they should have known would not succeed and nearly crippled Cuba's sugar industry, and a load of other genius socialist economic plans that worked out just as well as they did in the USSR in the late 20s and early 30s.
The US did not totally end diplomatic ties with Cuba until January 1961 and institute an embargo until October 1960, two years after the revolution.
Cuba was not improving pre-embargo compared to what it had been pre-revolution. It had regressed. Because communists destroy economies. No need for imperialist US meddling. Cuba had heavily subsidized trade with the approximately 1/2 of the world that was ruled by communists for three decades - some embargo - and still couldn't rise above the level of a Third-World failed state. After the Missile Crisis there was no physical limitation on Cuba's trade and there never has been any US limitation on Cuban trade with other countries, if they wanted to trade with Cuba they could. Yet still, Cuba remained a hellhole socialist paradise.
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On February 18 2014 03:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing. "rancid opposition" "Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...) "hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods" "the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists "it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests "To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great... "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit "For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression "It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy." "It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
i didn't even know it was physically possible to wipe your ass on a forum post.
On February 18 2014 03:18 Roe wrote:
Interesting to see if the US really is up to their usual regime manipulation again (maybe another 70 years and we'll know)
i'll put 5 petrodollars on it. ;>
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Nah this isn't ours, not directly, we just gave Chavez cancer so this could happen.
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I have family in Cuba and they're telling me that they are sending Cuban troops over to Venezuela. Since you guys want to mention Cuba, I thought I should mention that as well. Seems weird that Cuban troops are being forced to go on Venezuela's behalf.
Source: My cousin joined the Cuban army due to mandatory age and is now in Venezuela with a year left in duty...
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Let's go American expansionism! I say we offer to let Venezuela join the US, then they could have our help in fixing all their stuff. 
I'm guessing they'd vote against such a thing (I also rather doubt there'd be enough support in America for it either)
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On February 18 2014 03:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing. "rancid opposition" "Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...) "hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods" "the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists "it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests "To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great... "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit "For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression "It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy." "It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad.
nerver the less here is some proof that these protest are fake, and not revolutionary, but counter-revolutionary and totally made up http://drdawgsblawg.ca/2014/02/constructing-venezuela-protests-a-photo-gallery.shtml
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On February 18 2014 03:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing. "rancid opposition" "Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...) "hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods" "the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists "it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests "To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great... "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit "For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression "It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy." "It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway.
ideology comes from state-nation concept of uniformisation of culture and hegemony.
pointing out there are some monetary and ideological interest should be the norm my folk, that's what we do in politics to counter corruption
again i was just giving the otherside of the coin with this article (for more ecclectic information), i don't really care what you think of it; we could go years long on this debate
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On February 18 2014 07:47 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:On February 17 2014 09:50 crazyweasel wrote:I'll share another side of this matter that way we can have an ecclectic view of the positions there are. http://www.marxist.com/the-new-coup-plans-of-the-venezuelan-bourgeoisie.htmI really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports. Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing. "rancid opposition" "Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...) "hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods" "the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists "it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests "To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great... "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit "For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression "It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy." "It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway. sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad. nerver the less here is some proof that these protest are fake, and not revolutionary, but counter-revolutionary and totally made up http://drdawgsblawg.ca/2014/02/constructing-venezuela-protests-a-photo-gallery.shtml
it sounds like they could use some Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, to suppress heinous crimes like families buying black market chicken
pointing out there are some monetary and ideological interest should be the norm my folk, that's what we do in politics to counter corruption
yes, of course the political / military leadership of workers paradises would never abuse their monopoly power for personal enrichment, right?
"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit
there will always be kulaks.
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On February 18 2014 10:05 419 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 07:47 crazyweasel wrote:On February 18 2014 03:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:On February 17 2014 09:50 crazyweasel wrote:I'll share another side of this matter that way we can have an ecclectic view of the positions there are. http://www.marxist.com/the-new-coup-plans-of-the-venezuelan-bourgeoisie.htmI really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports. Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing. "rancid opposition" "Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...) "hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods" "the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists "it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests "To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great... "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit "For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression "It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy." "It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway. sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad. nerver the less here is some proof that these protest are fake, and not revolutionary, but counter-revolutionary and totally made up http://drdawgsblawg.ca/2014/02/constructing-venezuela-protests-a-photo-gallery.shtml it sounds like they could use some Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, to suppress heinous crimes like families buying black market chicken Show nested quote +pointing out there are some monetary and ideological interest should be the norm my folk, that's what we do in politics to counter corruption yes, of course the political / military leadership of workers paradises would never abuse their monopoly power for personal enrichment, right? Show nested quote +"Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit there will always be kulaks.
you are basing you're ideas of marxism on USSR's failures. you of all people should know that stalinism does not rhyme with marxism
:p see what i did there
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On February 18 2014 07:47 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 03:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:On February 17 2014 09:50 crazyweasel wrote:I'll share another side of this matter that way we can have an ecclectic view of the positions there are. http://www.marxist.com/the-new-coup-plans-of-the-venezuelan-bourgeoisie.htmI really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports. Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing. "rancid opposition" "Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...) "hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods" "the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists "it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests "To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great... "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit "For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression "It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy." "It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway. sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad. nerver the less here is some proof that these protest are fake, and not revolutionary, but counter-revolutionary and totally made up http://drdawgsblawg.ca/2014/02/constructing-venezuela-protests-a-photo-gallery.shtml
So, you're saying that I'm lying, and these protests are fake because of that website review of a few pic selection?.
Want Real Pictures?
ok.
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgeVMBACcAAaF7M.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgkWNZUIIAAGh2b.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgjMQ-9IYAAwBCM.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bgc5HKhCEAApb91.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgYlckjCYAA_NXd.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BgUMb-LIQAAGvnW.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BPBn9wpCMAEaNFu.jpg)
All in all, I don't want you to believe and I really don't care if you choose not to. We Venezuelans, have bigger problems than a dude saying our protest is fake on a internet forum.
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[QUOTE]On February 18 2014 11:40 funkie wrote:
"So, you're saying that I'm lying, and these protests are fake because of that website review of a few pic selection?.
Want Real Pictures?"
im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary.
im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
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im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary.
im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask?
I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue.
One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
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On February 18 2014 12:11 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary.
im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask? I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue. One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular.
im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist.
Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?.
so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
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On February 18 2014 12:27 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 12:11 Shiragaku wrote:im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary.
im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask? I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue. One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular. im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?. so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta
I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the free press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
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How come your new president is so bad?
While being brilliant is hard, pursuing basic sound policies really isn't, so I often wonder what causes bad leaders.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On February 18 2014 10:53 crazyweasel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 10:05 419 wrote:On February 18 2014 07:47 crazyweasel wrote:On February 18 2014 03:12 DeepElemBlues wrote:On February 17 2014 09:50 crazyweasel wrote:I'll share another side of this matter that way we can have an ecclectic view of the positions there are. http://www.marxist.com/the-new-coup-plans-of-the-venezuelan-bourgeoisie.htmI really doubt these counter-revolutionaries represent the people of bolivia, let's not forget the interest and political view behind the news reports. Well since they're Venezuelan I do doubt that they represent the people of Bolivia. And I wish that one day more Marxists than not would drop the brain-killing "let's not forget the interest and political view" line used so they can just dismiss anything they don't like reading or hearing or seeing. "rancid opposition" "Conciliation is not possible" (fascist repression against alleged fascism is the way to go I guess...) "hoarding goods" which is a political argument I don't think even Marx would suggest that shortages in Venezuela are because the bourgoisie is "hoarding goods" "the interests of the working class and bourgeoisie are diametrically opposed" somehow this only ever seems to be true in countries run by reactionary socialists "it is impossible for them [the bourgoisie] to behave in any way other than what they have been doing" well they've contested elections for over a decade now so it looks like they are capable of doing things other than street protests "To put an end to the coup let us put an end to the power of the bourgeoisie." I'm sure this will be great... "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit "For the mobilisation of the people and a radicalisation of the revolution to destroy those who want to carry out a coup." aka fascist repression "It is for this reason that in order to develop the country we have to socialise the main levers of the economy. This means expropriating the main monopolies (national and international), the large land estates and the private banks." Venezuela already has one of the most nationalized economies in the world, including almost all the "main levers of the economy." "It is only in this way [stealing people's shit whom you disagree with] that we will really be able to plan the economy of the country." The economy of the country has been planned for 14 years and the results are as we have seen. The lowest class brought up a teeny bit at the impoverishment of everyone else. Unless you're super-rich or super-poor the Bolivarian revolution has been crap for you, super-rich because they can avoid the disruptions and nonsense easier, the super-poor because any kind of effort at improving their very sorry lot is going to succeed at least some. But for the other 75% of the country, a destroyed currency and horribly mismanaged economy has screwed them. But most of them are petit bourgoisie proto-fascist scum anyway. sorry it was a mistake saying bolivian people, while wirting this is was reading on the bolivarian revolution my bad. nerver the less here is some proof that these protest are fake, and not revolutionary, but counter-revolutionary and totally made up http://drdawgsblawg.ca/2014/02/constructing-venezuela-protests-a-photo-gallery.shtml it sounds like they could use some Committees for the Defense of the Revolution, to suppress heinous crimes like families buying black market chicken pointing out there are some monetary and ideological interest should be the norm my folk, that's what we do in politics to counter corruption yes, of course the political / military leadership of workers paradises would never abuse their monopoly power for personal enrichment, right? "Expropriate the capitalists to put an end to the economic coup d’état." aka steal all their shit there will always be kulaks. you are basing you're ideas of marxism on USSR's failures. you of all people should know that stalinism does not rhyme with marxism :p see what i did there
in fact none of my first two sentences were explicitly referring to the USSR (I have another current regime in mind, it should be pretty obvious with cursory googling)
While being brilliant is hard, pursuing basic sound policies really isn't, so I often wonder what causes bad leaders.
he's just continuing Chavez's brilliant reforms~ "I'm a socialist and I know what I am doing," he said, and that is that
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On February 18 2014 12:42 Shiragaku wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2014 12:27 crazyweasel wrote:On February 18 2014 12:11 Shiragaku wrote:im saying that medias are manipulating the information and that these protests are reactionary, not revolutionary.
im curious to know what do you protest for if i may ask? I was going to call you a tankie, but I then remembered that the IMT is Trotskyist. I never would have imagined the day when I see Trots and tankies would unite on a single issue. One more thing, you sound like the American media when talking about Occupy, Fox News in particular. im not troskyist even though you are right IMT is, actually im simply not what you can call an orthodox marxist. Neither am i leninist. well marxists in general support revolutions that are instigated by the people not the bourgeoisie, maybe thats why they get along on this issue, i dont know though?. so i sound like manipulating media when i say medias manipulate? holy shit mate that's deep meta I would rather take "bourgeois revolution" any day before police brutality, corruption, destruction of the press, incompetent management of the nation, inflation, and abuses of power.
granted that these are not appealing, but i hope you do realise that all these you named are in vogue in you're country. inflation is dictated by world economy system of course planned economies will struggle (but lets not talk about the increasing poor in our own countries). corruption, incompetent management, abuse of power (isreal usa russia canada - my country - you name it) destruction of press has not yet happenned in venezuela, but in russia and israel..... police brutality: maybe you're not part of the "minorities" who get ID controlled every day or maybe have you never been hit by a cop in your life but it happens everyday even here. I'm not trying to normalize the situation, it is a dramatic one we'll all agree but let's say that not too far from our reality.
My point never was to support repression, im just part of those who think this is a bourgeois uprising, i may be wrong, only time will tell.
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EPT
