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On February 11 2014 23:56 darkness wrote:
Blizzard doesn't want to buff hydralisks because of PvZ. Their focus is hydralisks in ZvZ and ZvT in case you've missed.
Apparently I did miss that. I thought that the whole idea of having 100/25 Hydras was to fix the problem of Zerg not having enough AA early to mid game ZvP. My fault then.
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With the New change it would be worth to reactor out WMs which would mean its 20 Second a WM lol yes they take 40 seconds out of Tech Lab or just out of Factory but Reactored you can pump out wms pretty quickly.....
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On February 11 2014 21:19 shin_toss wrote:Lol you realize that Hydra also attacks on ground, and Karpfen fail to comprehend, I'm not even saying to balance it on once particular level, my point is the word balance should apply to " all' skill level. If blink plays are easy, how much more roach/hyrdra plays that most of the time only involved attack-ground command. yeah sure Roach/Hydra is fine vs their protoss counter parts. Jeez )
We should also ride rainbow unicorns and be immortal and eternally happy but it is impossible. It's normal and good that some units require more micro/game sense to make them effective. It's like this in pretty much every RTS...heck, even in mobas it's the exact same. Take dota for example: earth spirit (who got heavily nerfed the last patch), had about 40% win rate including all skill levels but it went as high as 65-70% in very high level brackets because he was pretty hard for low skilled people but it became very fucking good once the players had a bit of skill.
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Would be cool to have a clear notice for when this actually goes live, tried both NA and EU test mods and both were the previous one..
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You can't Balance a Game off of Bottom Tier brackets.... as many times as ppl say that it makes me cringe and puts a pit in my stomach thinking is the general populace this dull?
You can't balance a game off of someone with 20 apm and just clicks on stuff and watches fights LOL Trust me I used to be one of those in BW when i was like 9 LOL You can only balance a game off of those that can use units to their maximum efficiency but the way Blizzard made SC2 is that alot of times you can't as a human perform what blizzard has set out for maximum efficiency for units.... IE the Automation 2000 marines vs Banes not a single marine dies and kills like 40 banes LOL or where a relatively small group of lings massacres like 40 tanks... as a human you can only do so much so fast even if you are korean..... So balancing really should only come into play when a certain strategy is used with complete ease and the counterpart that is reacting is facing an EXTREME unsurmountable task that can only be accomplished if the otherside makes a mistake.... LOL which TvP feels like that ALOT especially with blink stalker.... I don't know if you watch many T players stream but most of the time when terran defend blink all in at high GM level its because Protoss MADE HUGE HUGE HUGE mistakes....
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China6282 Posts
On February 11 2014 23:50 Kipsate wrote: IIRC maps and Immortal range buff(?) destroyed 1-1-1? 1-1-1 remains viable till the end of WoL on smaller maps and maps that have hard to defend natural choke, Protoss learnt how to defend it by refining the 1-Gate expand build to gain bigger econ advantage combined with the Immortal range buff, even before that there were pros successfully defended it with said opening refining and sometimes counter tech like Stargate. The Immortal change is a good example of how a small change can truly impact a matchup in a positive way without completely destroying a build.
It is not until HotS with Photon Overcharge 1-1-1 was given a nail in the coffin.
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Poland3743 Posts
How many years do they need to balance this game...
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On February 12 2014 00:34 Pirfiktshon wrote: You can't Balance a Game off of Bottom Tier brackets.... as many times as ppl say that it makes me cringe and puts a pit in my stomach thinking is the general populace this dull?
You can't balance a game off of someone with 20 apm and just clicks on stuff and watches fights LOL Trust me I used to be one of those in BW when i was like 9 LOL You can only balance a game off of those that can use units to their maximum efficiency but the way Blizzard made SC2 is that alot of times you can't as a human perform what blizzard has set out for maximum efficiency for units.... IE the Automation 2000 marines vs Banes not a single marine dies and kills like 40 banes LOL or where a relatively small group of lings massacres like 40 tanks... as a human you can only do so much so fast even if you are korean..... So balancing really should only come into play when a certain strategy is used with complete ease and the counterpart that is reacting is facing an EXTREME unsurmountable task that can only be accomplished if the otherside makes a mistake.... LOL which TvP feels like that ALOT especially with blink stalker.... I don't know if you watch many T players stream but most of the time when terran defend blink all in at high GM level its because Protoss MADE HUGE HUGE HUGE mistakes....
Dude I really can't take you seriously with all those "LOL"'s
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On February 12 2014 00:37 nimdil wrote: How many years do they need to balance this game...
The game is balanced. There are minor things here and there but overall Blizzard has the balance thing figured out. Most of these changes are in response to the Korean meta (msc+blink allins, wm not being strong enough, zerg AA bad etc.)
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On February 12 2014 00:41 zelderan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 00:37 nimdil wrote: How many years do they need to balance this game... The game is balanced. There are minor things here and there but overall Blizzard has the balance thing figured out. Most of these changes are in response to the Korean meta (msc+blink allins, wm not being strong enough, zerg AA bad etc.)
Im sorry but how can you say the game is balanced when all we see is pvp finals with the ocasional zerg? No, the game is not balanced and thats why protoss is getting a well overdue nerf. Now all we need is a fix for swarmhosts vipers and ravens and the game will be good again.
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On February 12 2014 00:55 Snusmumriken wrote:
Im sorry but how can you say the game is balanced when all we see is pvp finals with the ocasional zerg? No, the game is not balanced and thats why protoss is getting a well overdue nerf. Now all we need is a fix for swarmhosts vipers and ravens and the game will be good again.
When I say the game is balanced, I say that the overall race win-rate on the ladder, which is very very close, probably as close as you can even get to being balanced. I do agree that SH's need a fix, and toss definitely needs a nerf, but the game is pretty balanced outside of the pro scene.
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Dude I really can't take you seriously with all those "LOL"'s The game is balanced. There are minor things here and there but overall Blizzard has the balance thing figured out. Most of these changes are in response to the Korean meta (msc+blink allins, wm not being strong enough, zerg AA bad etc.)
And I can't take you serious because there is no way you can believe this and not be mentally challenged.....
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On February 12 2014 01:01 zelderan wrote:Show nested quote + Im sorry but how can you say the game is balanced when all we see is pvp finals with the ocasional zerg? No, the game is not balanced and thats why protoss is getting a well overdue nerf. Now all we need is a fix for swarmhosts vipers and ravens and the game will be good again. When I say the game is balanced, I say that the overall race win-rate on the ladder, which is very very close, probably as close as you can even get to being balanced. I do agree that SH's need a fix, and toss definitely needs a nerf, but the game is pretty balanced outside of the pro scene. The ladder is built to have balanced winrates, so it means nothing.
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On February 12 2014 01:01 zelderan wrote:Show nested quote + Im sorry but how can you say the game is balanced when all we see is pvp finals with the ocasional zerg? No, the game is not balanced and thats why protoss is getting a well overdue nerf. Now all we need is a fix for swarmhosts vipers and ravens and the game will be good again. When I say the game is balanced, I say that the overall race win-rate on the ladder, which is very very close, probably as close as you can even get to being balanced. I do agree that SH's need a fix, and toss definitely needs a nerf, but the game is pretty balanced outside of the pro scene. If you are taking win rates on ladder as evidence for balance, you don't understand how the ladder system works. You could give marines 15 damage and the ladder would eventually have a 50/50 win rate.
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On February 12 2014 01:01 zelderan wrote:Show nested quote + Im sorry but how can you say the game is balanced when all we see is pvp finals with the ocasional zerg? No, the game is not balanced and thats why protoss is getting a well overdue nerf. Now all we need is a fix for swarmhosts vipers and ravens and the game will be good again. When I say the game is balanced, I say that the overall race win-rate on the ladder, which is very very close, probably as close as you can even get to being balanced. I do agree that SH's need a fix, and toss definitely needs a nerf, but the game is pretty balanced outside of the pro scene.
rofl ofc the overall race winrate on the ladder is close to 50%, that´s what the ladder system doesn, unless you are at the very ends of the skill spectrum. But that way fewer terrans than protoss or zerg are reaching GM and Master in every region, is no indicator for you?
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On February 12 2014 00:37 nimdil wrote: How many years do they need to balance this game... It has nothing to do with balance. Even if it is perfectly balanced, we are going to be incredibly bored in 6 months, so that we need a new balance patch again . Every race has 2 OP units is alot more interesting to play and watch than every unit (and the game) is perfectly balanced.
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On February 11 2014 18:21 pali_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2014 17:46 Torte de Lini wrote:On February 11 2014 06:08 Existor wrote:And here is a banner! God that's freakin' cool! I wish I had this as 1920 x 1080 You ain't getting that in 1920x1080, because the aspect ratio does not fit More like 1920x600 I like most of the changes btw. Especially mama-core vision and WM shield dmg buff. I agree though that the Blink nerf might be too harsh, 50% cooldown nerf is too much imo, it is not the blink itself that makes the blink-all-ins so tough to hold, it's the mothershipcore, its maphack-vision + timewarp PLUS the fact that you don't require a tech building to get it (meaning like robo or stargate for instance, I know that the cybernetics core is required) and that it's not much of an investment, so basically it's a nobrainer for P to get it. (Maybe increasing the cost a bit - escpecially the gas cost - would make it more of a decision for P to get it? I mean, this should be a game of choices and each choice should have its pros and cons. And given the fact that the core is a damn strong defensive - and offensive - see below - unit, I don't see why it shouldn't be more expensive) Now, I don't want to whine too much, but a few thoughts on the mothership core. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I got it, this unit was introduced to the game so that P become safer against all-ins / so that expand builds (especially in PvZ and PvP) become more viable. I think that is correct? Now, I would be totally OK with that, an easy to get defensive unit which allows you to play macro-focused. Totally fine with me. The fact which is totally breaking my balls is that this unit is not only defensive, but it can be used in a crapton of various all-ins as well, making them VERY strong. Now, from my perspective, designing a unit like that is just plain wrong, especially due to the fact that it is so low in the tech tree and so easy to get. So, why not try to change sth so that the mama-core becomes a pure defensive unit? For example, change its movement speed? P still could use defensive timewarps and PO and still could use recall by splitting a part of its army and recalling it to the 3rd nexus in a split-push situation, for example. This would especially nerf the mama-core's offensive ability in TvP and weaken the 2base immortal based PvZ all-ins without affecting the mama-core's defensive abilities. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. Another suggestion I read a few pages back was reducing stim research time by a few seconds. Thinking back, the research time was mainly increased in order to help P hold the medivac stim / stim only pushes. I think that's about right? Now, P have the mothership core / the maps are much bigger, so why not revert this change? In TvP, P is pretty much untouchable within the first 7-8-9 minutes thanks to the mothership core, so why not making T's life a bit easier and helping them hold the plethora of P all-ins by reducing the stim research time a bit? Or would this affect TvZ too much? I honestly don't think so. Again, thoughts would be appreciated.
Not a single comment guys? Oo
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The ladder is built to have balanced winrates, so it means nothing.
rofl ofc the overall race winrate on the ladder is close to 50%, that´s what the ladder system doesn, unless you are at the very ends of the skill spectrum. But that way fewer terrans than protoss or zerg are reaching GM and Master in every region, is no indicator for you?
This is exactly why you can't just look at oh its 50% winrate on ladder give or take a few points in protoss favor LOL Racial distribution is more of a factor than anything if you have the same amount of Terrans as you do protoss and zergs in total of players yet you have 50% protoss in GM 35 % zerg in gm and 15% Terran that has to ring some bells and shoot off some buzzers....
It has nothing to do with balance. Even if it is perfectly balanced, we are going to be incredibly bored in 6 months, so that we need a new balance patch again . Every race has 2 OP units is alot more interesting to play and watch than every unit (and the game) is perfectly balanced.
The problem with doing this is that the race that suffers feels cheated and stops playing / watching so you start to decline in viewership and popularity of the game as a whole.... SC2 has been plagued with this metric since 2010 when it came out LOL Blizzard does things in the name of "Being Interesting to watch" but when you skew a match up hardcore in favor of one race when it was already slightly favored to them then you start getting what we have now CONSTANT decline and no increase of players / viewers..... it truly breaks my heart even though BW had small broken things players / maps could over come them with new strategies and better control / macro / micro but the way blizzard made sc2 they are in control of the meta and when players figure something out the Nerf guns come out instead of making things reasonable in the first place then just leaving the core alone and just build other things around it IE MAPS that change things......
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You ain't getting that in 1920x1080, because the aspect ratio does not fit More like 1920x600
I like most of the changes btw. Especially mama-core vision and WM shield dmg buff. I agree though that the Blink nerf might be too harsh, 50% cooldown nerf is too much imo, it is not the blink itself that makes the blink-all-ins so tough to hold, it's the mothershipcore, its maphack-vision + timewarp PLUS the fact that you don't require a tech building to get it (meaning like robo or stargate for instance, I know that the cybernetics core is required) and that it's not much of an investment, so basically it's a nobrainer for P to get it. (Maybe increasing the cost a bit - escpecially the gas cost - would make it more of a decision for P to get it? I mean, this should be a game of choices and each choice should have its pros and cons. And given the fact that the core is a damn strong defensive - and offensive - see below - unit, I don't see why it shouldn't be more expensive)
Now, I don't want to whine too much, but a few thoughts on the mothership core. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I got it, this unit was introduced to the game so that P become safer against all-ins / so that expand builds (especially in PvZ and PvP) become more viable. I think that is correct? Now, I would be totally OK with that, an easy to get defensive unit which allows you to play macro-focused. Totally fine with me. The fact which is totally breaking my balls is that this unit is not only defensive, but it can be used in a crapton of various all-ins as well, making them VERY strong. Now, from my perspective, designing a unit like that is just plain wrong, especially due to the fact that it is so low in the tech tree and so easy to get. So, why not try to change sth so that the mama-core becomes a pure defensive unit? For example, change its movement speed? P still could use defensive timewarps and PO and still could use recall by splitting a part of its army and recalling it to the 3rd nexus in a split-push situation, for example. This would especially nerf the mama-core's offensive ability in TvP and weaken the 2base immortal based PvZ all-ins without affecting the mama-core's defensive abilities. I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
Another suggestion I read a few pages back was reducing stim research time by a few seconds. Thinking back, the research time was mainly increased in order to help P hold the medivac stim / stim only pushes. I think that's about right? Now, P have the mothership core / the maps are much bigger, so why not revert this change? In TvP, P is pretty much untouchable within the first 7-8-9 minutes thanks to the mothership core, so why not making T's life a bit easier and helping them hold the plethora of P all-ins by reducing the stim research time a bit? Or would this affect TvZ too much? I honestly don't think so. Again, thoughts would be appreciated.
Honestly this analysis is well thought out the major problem is that DK LOVES the offensive aspect of the MSC and I was the one who suggested Reverting the STim reserach timing back because of the many things that have evolved in the game so yea DEFLY agree with that.... LOL
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On February 12 2014 01:06 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2014 01:01 zelderan wrote:On February 12 2014 00:55 Snusmumriken wrote:
Im sorry but how can you say the game is balanced when all we see is pvp finals with the ocasional zerg? No, the game is not balanced and thats why protoss is getting a well overdue nerf. Now all we need is a fix for swarmhosts vipers and ravens and the game will be good again. When I say the game is balanced, I say that the overall race win-rate on the ladder, which is very very close, probably as close as you can even get to being balanced. I do agree that SH's need a fix, and toss definitely needs a nerf, but the game is pretty balanced outside of the pro scene. The ladder is built to have balanced winrates, so it means nothing. ...Yes, but because it's built to have balanced winrates, any racial imbalances will be clearly displayed because one race being overpowered or underpowered with respect to (an)other race(s) will be reflected in the matchup winrates. If the matchup-wide winrates are all close to 50% (which they are), then the game is pretty damn balanced.
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