Maphack and the problems with protection from it - Page 8
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MattD
United Kingdom83 Posts
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ChrisFreak
Germany13 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
StreetWise
United States594 Posts
On July 29 2013 21:51 Baarn wrote: There has been some research going on into solving this problem at Stanford. It's kind of a long read but they offer a solution that does work. Here is the link to their thoughts in pdf format if anyone cares to read it. http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/onlinegames.pdf Edit: I'd suggest reading this also if you want to know how maphacks work. Sadly this program would technically be against SC2 TOS. The only way would be for Blizzard to make an official version and require all tournament participants to run it while in a tournament. They would also have to change the seed before every round. But looking at this paper if Blizzard was serious about their online qualifiers they could easily do something like this. If a player doesn't feel comfortable running a program like this, they simply don't participate in the tournament. As for ladder, they most likely would not force everyone to run a program like this to play ladder, so the only safe place would be online tournaments. | ||
vidium
Romania222 Posts
I just wonder why no one who interviews David Kim, Justin Browder or other blizz staff related to SC2 development asks them about hackers. Like in the last interview wirth DK in China they were only asking about why not buff this or nerf that... | ||
Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On July 29 2013 22:05 Morfildur wrote: I couldn't see another reply that covered it satisfactory, so:
Thanks you, I'm surprised somebody answered | ||
fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On July 29 2013 23:27 StreetWise wrote: Sadly this program would technically be against SC2 TOS. The only way would be for Blizzard to make an official version and require all tournament participants to run it while in a tournament. They would also have to change the seed before every round. But looking at this paper if Blizzard was serious about their online qualifiers they could easily do something like this. If a player doesn't feel comfortable running a program like this, they simply don't participate in the tournament. As for ladder, they most likely would not force everyone to run a program like this to play ladder, so the only safe place would be online tournaments. It seems impossible to protect a game against maphacks 100%. Simply put, you're running software on your computer, and any maphack detection software is asking your computer questions about what's in memory, what's on your screen, what threads are running, etc. The detection software uses these answers to judge if you are using any cheats of any sort. The problem is that you can write software that lies about the answer to all of these questions. Battle.net asks how much memory is taken up by 'revealed map data', and your maphack makes this 100Kb. However, your hack keeps track of how much *should* be taken up, and replies '12Kb'. Battle.net sees an acceptable answer and the hack is undetected. Punkbuster asks your client for a screenshot, your hack intercepts this request, turns off the hack for one frame, takes a screenshot, and sends it. Encryption is not reasonable because the cheater controls one of the endpoints (his PC). No encryption can work when you have access to the memory and instruction set one of the endpoints is using. It's a cat and mouse game, because anti-hacks can keep coming up with new ways to detect hacks, and the hacks have to update and adapt to dealing with those, which is why we can get these waves of bans we all love. But I'm afraid it's a problem that's never going to be solved. | ||
Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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Smartrio
Ukraine14 Posts
Привет стрелок очень хорошо что ты создал эту тему, надо как то шевелить комюнити и близард чтобы более активно относились к данной проблеме, спасибо тебе за стримы которые ты устраиваешь, и вообще желаю тебе удачи в карьере и личной жизни | ||
kaup
Germany22 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On July 30 2013 01:10 Extenz wrote: Just make when someone targets something not in their vision they get kicked and perma banned. The hacks will prevent the players from selecting shit that's not in their vision. | ||
Specialist
United States803 Posts
We need progamers retiring and saying MH was one of the main reasons that they quit, or something to that effect What we need is a publicity, saying how 30% of NA GM ladder is MHer's (might be exaggerated but should be close) and MHer's can get away with any online tournaments without any suspicion For instance, if a pro player map hacks and he fake scouts and act intelligently enough to not get caught. Can anybody contest that he did map hack? The answer is no. The benefit is TOO GREAT. yet risk is MINIMAL. Think about it.... why WOULDN'T YOU? as things are right now, blizzard is just picking their nose, laughing and wasting their money... as dumb as a company can get that's their size | ||
Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
1. Make scouting less difficult. That was done from WoL to HotS and I believe universally applauded, but it needs to be even more so. It needs to be so easy that there are no surprises at average player level and up and both sides know what the other guy is doing, dropping, building, etc. 2. Make micro more important than counter builds/units. Give units more ways to be micro intensive to beat things they historically couldn't beat. Half the posts in this thread are about bad micro on the accused yet counters being implemented blindly and winning games. I really wish Starcraft 2 wasn't so micro-unfriendly for this to be the case. 3. Slow down the game speed a little bit. This automatically makes #1 and #2 easier without even changing the game. Balance would need to be tweaked after doing any of these things, naturally. | ||
TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 30 2013 04:38 Blacklizard wrote: There is another way to combat hacking that Blizzard should consider which has nothing to do with detecting hacks. 1. Make scouting less difficult. That was done from WoL to HotS and I believe universally applauded, but it needs to be even more so. It needs to be so easy that there are no surprises at average player level and up and both sides know what the other guy is doing, dropping, building, etc. 2. Make micro more important than counter builds/units. Give units more ways to be micro intensive to beat things they historically couldn't beat. Half the posts in this thread are about bad micro on the accused yet counters being implemented blindly and winning games. I really wish Starcraft 2 wasn't so micro-unfriendly for this to be the case. 3. Slow down the game speed a little bit. This automatically makes #1 and #2 easier without even changing the game. Balance would need to be tweaked after doing any of these things, naturally. So your solution is to change the entire game and make it so that everybody effectively has map hacks? No thanks. | ||
Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 30 2013 05:03 Blacklizard wrote: I would not want to change the game that much, but I tell you hacks are becoming a problem on ladder and last time that happened I stopped playing BW. I don't want it to happen to SC2. You stopped playing BW because you were frustrated. BW mechanical and micro skill was so high that if you were good, it wouldnt matter excessively if they map hacked or not because your units would just beat theirs or you would have so much production that they couldnt keep up. Making it so that everybody technically has hacks does not make the game better, it makes it significantly worse. | ||
dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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RLcAnWaiT
Germany4 Posts
But now since WCS online qualifier and the fact that u can establish your name by having good results at weekly cups the fact that really good players and this who really deserve it get cheated of there chance breaking into the esport scene is a big problem To be honest i ll never make jsut 1$ out of sc2 so i dont care much about maphacks anyway for sure i get pissed when i loose because my opponent clearly hacks but 2 games later i dont even remember Also blizzard dont care what people like me think or if i have a problem witch cheater they tell everytime the same shitty answers like "we do all we can to prevent people doing it" but in the end there is no pressure i can come up with So what i want to say its you have to take action and "you" are all the people which are involved in esport (professional player, caster, coaches, big names of the community) and get blizzard to fokus on that problem For example next time someone interviews david kim dont ask "is the balance okay" say "there are xy% of maphacker in every gml and blizzard even let them play at wsc qualifires what do you think about it and what will blizzard do about" if he gets asked over and over again maybe he will say fuck it we take action now Or another example players can wear shirts at tournaments with requests for blizzard to take action and so on the problem is like i said blizzard does not care about if people like me get problems with hacker on ladder because there is not pressure i can get to them but u can sry for bad englisch! | ||
Blacklizard
United States1194 Posts
On July 30 2013 05:12 TheRabidDeer wrote: You stopped playing BW because you were frustrated. BW mechanical and micro skill was so high that if you were good, it wouldnt matter excessively if they map hacked or not because your units would just beat theirs or you would have so much production that they couldnt keep up. Making it so that everybody technically has hacks does not make the game better, it makes it significantly worse. One condescension deserves another I suppose, so here goes. Back then I had the ear of the main designer, and when Pardo asked if it was worth it to turn off fog of war entirely to eliminate maphackers ruining ladder I responded with "Well, it'd be more fair, but it'd ruin the game". So yes, I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you are understanding me. Probably a year later I more or less quit the game, in no small part to maphacking being rampant; and I refused to resort to maphacking. Also real life took over actually... I have to give some credit to my wife. However, implementing things like "giving units more micro" is certainly not ruining the game. Implementing even more scouting while drastic, would only ruin gimmicks. So terrible? And actually, as bad as maphacks were, the game of SC1/BW continued to thrive despite probably the majority of competitive players using hacks online. So I guess even going so far as removing fog of war wasn't enough to destroy the game. The game lasted because it was just that good. Can't SC2 hold up the test of time if more micro is involved and less hidden gimmicks? | ||
TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On July 30 2013 06:09 Blacklizard wrote: One condescension deserves another I suppose, so here goes. Back then I had the ear of the main designer, and when Pardo asked if it was worth it to turn off fog of war entirely to eliminate maphackers ruining ladder I responded with "Well, it'd be more fair, but it'd ruin the game". So yes, I understand what you are trying to say, but I don't think you are understanding me. Probably a year later I more or less quit the game, in no small part to maphacking being rampant; and I refused to resort to maphacking. Also real life took over actually... I have to give some credit to my wife. However, implementing things like "giving units more micro" is certainly not ruining the game. Implementing even more scouting while drastic, would only ruin gimmicks. So terrible? And actually, as bad as maphacks were, the game of SC1/BW continued to thrive despite probably the majority of competitive players using hacks online. So I guess even going so far as removing fog of war wasn't enough to destroy the game. The game lasted because it was just that good. Can't SC2 hold up the test of time if more micro is involved and less hidden gimmicks? I dont really know who you are, so forgive me ahead of time if you are a great progamer from the late BW era that I missed... but how did you get the ear of Pardo and why would he ask you if removing fog of war would be a good idea? Why would he not ask any of the other multitudes of well known great players? Idra, Tyler, Artosis, etc etc.? I stopped playing BW in 2004/2005, but not due to hacks. What makes you think that so many people hacked in BW? Do you have proof? Is this only on the bnet servers or also on iccup? I am all for giving units more micro, but removing gimmicks and giving everybody free access to knowing what the other person is doing is not good for the game. Hidden dark shrine, hidden spire, or hidden starport need to be in the game. I mean... if you allow perfect scouting, you may as well remove units like dark templars. Also, BW continued to thrive because most people didnt play bnet public games. They played with friends, they played with teammates, they practiced, they competed, and above all there was korea and proleague/starleague. | ||
Jogginghose
Germany9 Posts
JuicyPeach has definitely a maphack. I just played him and uploaded a replay for you. Judge yourself. It's pretty obvious i feel . http://drop.sc/352169 | ||
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