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On July 29 2013 17:25 Baarn wrote:
No need to waste time making a program to detect maphacks. The authors of maphacks will find a way around it. It starts this back and forth that just leads to frustration. Tournaments need to train their admins to look for the type of behavior listed in the OP during the match. A set of eyes actually watching the match is far superior to any program.
It is a back and forth yes, and it is unlikely they will be able to really prevent maphacks from being possible. But that doesn't mean they should ignore it, then soon no one plays SC2 anymore without maphack, since those who don't want to use one just go looking for another game with fewer cheaters.
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there are ways to patch map hacks. But when you hit the ladder don't worry about people hacking... most people do not hack.
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Yet another reason why lan is so important.
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On July 29 2013 18:52 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Yet another reason why lan is so important.
Just another post, where brain would be important: How does LAN help against hacking in online-cups?
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On July 29 2013 18:55 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:52 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Yet another reason why lan is so important. Just another post, where brain would be important: How does LAN help against hacking in online-cups?
Because someone who does well online (and other players suspect he is hacking) but suck on LANs can be good intel that player is hacking. Therefore, you can compare playstyles, decision making, etc and be 100% sure about it.
For example, if Imbatoss starts winning a lot of online cups under this accusations and doesent showup for WCG qualies, its suspicious. and if he shows up and play poorly its clear.
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On July 29 2013 19:01 ZeRoX-45 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:55 grs wrote:On July 29 2013 18:52 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Yet another reason why lan is so important. Just another post, where brain would be important: How does LAN help against hacking in online-cups? Because someone who does well online (and other players suspect he is hacking) but suck on LANs can be good intel that player is hacking. Therefore, you can compare playstyles, decision making, etc and be 100% sure about it. For example, if Imbatoss starts winning a lot of online cups under this accusations and doesent showup for WCG qualies, its suspicious. and if he shows up and play poorly its clear.
It's still not helping if he only plays online cups. I would not have been aggressive like that but yeah. It won't help.
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I've played ImbaTosS in go4sc2 finals during the dreamhack and won him 3-1. I've watched over the replays and it was obviously he was hiding it in front all of the casters, but you could still see the tech counters.
Next games vs him were in EMS qualifier team league cup #2, where the first game he was either cheating on skype with the observing person or maphacking hardcore, he countered my every move and action, sent runbys to secret expansions etc.
So from my objective perspective, ImbAtosS is a maphacker, not a stream cheater
And it's just surprising how can someone unknown come top at tournaments (go4sc2 finals) and beating much better players like Strelok and going from totally bottom GM ladder to top 16 in 2-3 days lol>
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Why doesnt blizz do like valve in dota2, if you dont have vision, the server doesnt give you information about the region in the fog of war. They just forced drm to prevent hackers in sc2, botters in diablo 3 and failed hard, and still wait 3 years to ban "in waves", making player experience on the ladder bad.
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i downloaded some imbatoss replays. although he loses quite a few games, because his micro and decisionmaking in fights just aren´t good, he never gets caught offguard. NEVER. which is even more impressive, because the quantity of his scouting (obs, hallu) are more platinum than gm level.
in the replay analysis i posted in the hacker thread, he never scouts the zerg main. in a 25 minutes game!
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On July 29 2013 19:28 vidium wrote:
Why doesnt blizz do like valve in dota2, if you dont have vision, the server doesnt give you information about the region in the fog of war. They just forced drm to prevent hackers in sc2, botters in diablo 3 and failed hard, and still wait 3 years to ban "in waves", making player experience on the ladder bad.
Because some unit can hit from the fog of war, as not all units/buildings have same vision range and some units have more than enough to outrange vision range with attack range. So, to make it work, you should send all the informations of the units that is going to "appear" in the game. It can be possibile for dota2 where there are very few units, but when you have hundreds of units it can't be applied without connection issue. As far as I know the only thing that passes through connection is the action the player do, plus maybe the random delay on shoots. Otherwise replays couldnt' be few KB.
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On July 29 2013 21:20 eusoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 19:28 vidium wrote:
Why doesnt blizz do like valve in dota2, if you dont have vision, the server doesnt give you information about the region in the fog of war. They just forced drm to prevent hackers in sc2, botters in diablo 3 and failed hard, and still wait 3 years to ban "in waves", making player experience on the ladder bad. Because some unit can hit from the fog of war, as not all units/buildings have same vision range and some units have more than enough to outrange vision range with attack range. So, to make it work, you should send all the informations of the units that is going to "appear" in the game. It can be possibile for dota2 where there are very few units, but when you have hundreds of units it can't be applied without connection issue. As far as I know the only thing that passes through connection is the action the player do, plus maybe the random delay on shoots. Otherwise replays couldnt' be few KB.
But planetary annialation has a lot of units and is using the same server based architecture that eliminates maphacks as dota 2. I posted about it earlier in the thread. How are they able to do it but it is technically impossible to do in sc2?
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given how many pros have commented and agree with imbatoss maphacking, i think its only a matter of time until he's gone  good riddance!
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On July 29 2013 19:28 vidium wrote:
Why doesnt blizz do like valve in dota2, if you dont have vision, the server doesnt give you information about the region in the fog of war. They just forced drm to prevent hackers in sc2, botters in diablo 3 and failed hard, and still wait 3 years to ban "in waves", making player experience on the ladder bad.
Because kits that let you see the map read everything passively from memory in your computer. It's all performed client side.
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There has been some research going on into solving this problem at Stanford. It's kind of a long read but they offer a solution that does work. Here is the link to their thoughts in pdf format if anyone cares to read it. http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/onlinegames.pdf
Edit: I'd suggest reading this also if you want to know how maphacks work.
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Translation for those of us lesser fortunate people who don't speak Russian?
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On July 29 2013 19:01 ZeRoX-45 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 29 2013 18:55 grs wrote:On July 29 2013 18:52 MarlieChurphy wrote:
Yet another reason why lan is so important. Just another post, where brain would be important: How does LAN help against hacking in online-cups? Because someone who does well online (and other players suspect he is hacking) but suck on LANs can be good intel that player is hacking. Therefore, you can compare playstyles, decision making, etc and be 100% sure about it. For example, if Imbatoss starts winning a lot of online cups under this accusations and doesent showup for WCG qualies, its suspicious. and if he shows up and play poorly its clear.
That would happen with or without LAN. The real reason why offline events prevent hackers is beause they can't play on their PC. Even if they get the hack on the tournament PC, the opponent can just go "Yo, that game was BS, check that PC for hacks."
On July 29 2013 21:51 Baarn wrote:There has been some research going on into solving this problem at Stanford. It's kind of a long read but they offer a solution that does work. Here is the link to their thoughts in pdf format if anyone cares to read it. http://crypto.stanford.edu/~dabo/pubs/papers/onlinegames.pdf
Oh man, this is super interesting, but a dense read. I might have to print this one out just so I can reference previous sections easier.
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On July 29 2013 02:02 Djzapz wrote:
As a commoner, I wonder what is preventing the creation of a system which wouldn't send all the info to the client. Perhaps not having the entire game data at any given time would create some latency? Is it too complicated to get the games to sync as it goes?
It seems to me like maphacking is only possible because of cheap netcode and we're overdue for some innovation now.
I couldn't see another reply that covered it satisfactory, so:
- Replays always contain both sides, so all information has to be available one way or the other.
- UMS maps can have triggers where an action from a unit outside of vision range effects something inside vision range, e.g. "If player 1 moves a unit to point X,Y then spawn 10 units of the same type on the opponents side" - player 2's game doesn't know which unit is on point X,Y - so synchronising that kind of maps would add a lot of other problems with lots of exceptions for those situations everywhere in the code, leading to more bugs. LoL can do it because it has no custom games.
- Constantly sending updates about which units are visible or not requires a lot more bandwidth than just sending the orders, reducing the server and bandwidth requirements by at least 90%. A single game of SC2 could literally run with a 386 as server since it just moves network data around.
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Only fair way to counter map hacker is to map hack yourself
So eventually map hack will be part of the game itself. Map hack vs Map hack progame...
from what blizzard is doing, this is their vision of SC2 going forward
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On July 28 2013 22:49 grs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 22:47 krazykoz wrote:
IMO, the best way to combat this in online competitions is to have blizzard/tournament organizers create a simple program that players must run on their machine when they choose to compete in those tournaments and it would allow an admin to view any active programs. Given it is the player's choice to enter those tournaments, it wouldn't be a privacy situation as those players could choose to not enter the tournaments.
By limiting it to the tournament scene, there would not be as much incentive for hackers to find a way around that program as most hacks are developed for general use on ladder where they reach a broader audience. Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money.
care to explain?
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On July 29 2013 22:31 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2013 22:49 grs wrote:On July 28 2013 22:47 krazykoz wrote:
IMO, the best way to combat this in online competitions is to have blizzard/tournament organizers create a simple program that players must run on their machine when they choose to compete in those tournaments and it would allow an admin to view any active programs. Given it is the player's choice to enter those tournaments, it wouldn't be a privacy situation as those players could choose to not enter the tournaments.
By limiting it to the tournament scene, there would not be as much incentive for hackers to find a way around that program as most hacks are developed for general use on ladder where they reach a broader audience. Legally and technically impractical. Also the assumption, that hacks are developed for ladder only, is not right. There are players using this for money. care to explain?
To make it access the information you want, you need to integrate it into the launcher. You can't do that legally. Blizzard will stop that. Even if you can somehow get a third party software do what is needed without Blizzard stopping you, it will be very difficult to get that to run on every tournament out there. There scene is much too diverse for that. Note that I did not write impossible, but impactical.
Anyways: Either Blizzard steps up or online tournaments/qualifiers will be target for hackers/cheaters.
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EPT
