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I'm not creating this thread to discuss balance. That is a debate that will never end. What I want to know is if HotS:
- Is worth buying and spending time on
- Can be better than WoL from a player and spectator standpoint
I'd like to keep balance talk out of here, but knowing that it's inevitable, just please don't side track the thread with pure balance talk and your suggestions on what stats these units have or what units should be invented. I just want to know what everyone else's opinion is on the current development of the game, if the game is worth the money, and what changes need to be made to the game, both inside and outside of the actual gameplay ( and hopefully the brunt of all that balance talk won't show up here). I realize there was an old "is hots worth it" thread, but that was made over 2 years ago and none of them knew of the problems that WoL has ran into, let alone HotS.
After watching some of the more high-profile HotS games, I'm seeing some recurring themes and problems, as well as some new ones.
Balance issues aside, the first issue I see as someone who followed the game since the beta of WoL is that it still just looks like WoL...all I see is just a really lazy remake. Maybe it was because WoL isn't the perfect template to base a game off of, but it's still just deathballs, dead shit, and more deathballs. I still can't tell what the hell is in it half the time, and it just seems like the only way to kill it off is to build a bigger ball. Yea, I can tell theres some new fancy stuff in the mix that shoot glowy lazer pew pew beams, but am I really going to pay $30 for that? I'm certainly not paying $60 for 2 expansions that just give me more flashy lights...WoL already has enough of that. We're all guilty of just building deathballs and not trying to develop the game in a different direction, but its the only effective solution .. to counter a bigger army, you just have to build "more." Yea, so BW took a macro-oriented turn in it's latter part of its life, but it took some serious skill (and an entirely different skill-set at that) to use such a large army effectively because of the dumb AI. Now that SC2 has Sun Tzu as an AI, all the player has to do is expand, build, kill, repeat. There is no real skill involved in any of that; it's like having a national knitting competition and trying to monetize that. I thought they would've introduced some kind of mechanic that would make controlling large armies difficult as compared to a smaller group of units. The only reason WoL is pure deathball is because it's too easy and there aren't enough drawbacks to using that "tactic." It seems to me that Blizzard's idea of balancing is to invent a new unit/bring out the nerf gun as some kind of a band-aid and say "it's fixed now; go play." That was evident in WoL Beta and you can still see it in the current patches. We're still using deathballs Blizzard, even after you nerfed everything. If that's how they're going to go about this game, I'm just going to steal it from my friends who will get bored of this game in a month. Summary-They need to stop introducing new units and gimmicks in HotS and start addressing the old ones in WoL that they can't do in a normal patch with some AI changes, terrain changes, and, if necessary, some extreme changes to the fundamental core of each race (i.e, queen mechanics, mules, chrono, production buildings, things of that nature).
The second issue I'm seeing is that as of now, many SC2 players are switching to the MOBA games because it's easier and fun, whereas WoL has lost that fun/rewarding edge. In order to lure them back to SC2, the game has to take one of two directions: 1) Further simplify the game so it's easier to do what the pros are doing or 2) Make the game rewarding to play by separating ladders from the "fun" games (i.e, BGH and Fastest map possible), creating a novice mode where they can just direct units and ignore macro, or some new idea that doesn't involve screwing over the professionals of SC2. And so far, I don't really see any effort towards luring the fanbase back to SC2.
Blizzard has taken the lazy road out of the first two by simply bringing out the nerf gun and saying "go create your own maps." If they want to bring out the nerf gun every time someone cries "OP," they're going to be bringing out the nerf gun til we're all rolling in our graves when our grandkids are complaining about infestors (provided that they would still play this game..). If they continue to balance HotS like they did with WoL, this game isn't going to be very fun or rewarding when we try and completely rework our build orders and army compostions. Balancing SC2 like a MOBA game is not the right way to do things...they need to take advantage of HotS to make all the major changes, because even the slightest things can make a gigantic difference in this RTS.
If they want us to make our own custom maps, then the user experience has to be way better. Right now, they're just making Bnet into a popularity contest where the best maps are the ones that people play the most and the new ones get no exposure. And then they're adding a clan system, a market place, and leveling? People don't play LoL to level up; they play to get baron steals, pentakills, and epic ganks. Why are they taking this direction with the game amyways? I'm almost certain they'll change the interface and make new, individual game modes along side the ladder, but in the case that they do not and still use their shitty Bnet 2.0 map searching system, HotS won't last half as long as WoL did. And I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but the I don't know if Blizzard even has an imagination or a vision for this game. They're copy and pasting what previous RTS have done, refining the AI and changing the gameplay, tweaking things here and there, and expecting their contraption to actually work? It's one thing to create new units; it's an entirely different matter if you're just putting things in there just because it sounds cool.
Summary-I don't know what kind of politics are going on in the development of this game, but the end result is showing us they don't really have a direction for this game other than "money money money". If this game is going to follow in the footsteps of D3...then god be with us all.
I hoped that Blizzard would try and fix WoL with HotS rather than trying to expand on this dying game. This might be my "elitist" opinion of things, but I just don't want to throw away more money towards empty Blizzard games. Already did it for D3 and SC2, and I'm not about to do it again.
Poll: Are you happy with the direction that HotS is going in?No (512) 53% Yes (461) 47% 973 total votes Your vote: Are you happy with the direction that HotS is going in? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No
Poll: Are you buying HotS?Yes, no matter what (718) 66% No, if they don't change it enough to make it worth it (274) 25% Yes, but only if its worth it (65) 6% No, I'm broke (32) 3% 1089 total votes Your vote: Are you buying HotS? (Vote): Yes, no matter what (Vote): Yes, but only if its worth it (Vote): No, if they don't change it enough to make it worth it (Vote): No, I'm broke
EDIT: sorry about poll; fixed EDIT2: wow i'm dyslexic. just vote for the "no, im not going to buy it if its not worth it option." Sry
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(Vote): Yes, but only if I think it's worth it (Vote): No, if the game is not worth it
These are the same thing.
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I'm fairly I'll be buying just for the campaign and the new UI, but it won't be day one. Probably during the summer or something or when there's a deal.
BTW What's the difference between "Yes, but only if I think it's worth it" and "No, if the game is not worth it"?
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I'm getting it day 1 no matter what. I think it's an improvement for sure, but there are still some deathball issues.
zvp is swapped, zerg now is being aggressive all game while not letting protoss get the killer composition of colossi(or templar, possibly both)/tempest/voidray. That composition is unkillable if they get it much like bl/corr/infestor is unkillable in wol.
In general I think zvp will be a little more exciting then it is in wol, but still fairly dull.
zvt is going to be almost exactly like wol with some widow mine usage, but the new medivacs if they stay the way they are now are going to be insanely good. With healing upgrade I am very interested to see how zergs will deal with the drops when their healing a lot faster.
zvz is muta dominated atm which is fine by me .
I think hots will be better and worth it but if blizzard doesn't update the map pool with more tournament maps it's going to be a joke and only get worse as time goes on.
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if they change the pathing then it's worth it
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If you look at HOTS as a whole, its definitely worth it. The campaign, new ui/social features and multiplayer additions are very good.
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On January 02 2013 18:35 FutureBreedMachine wrote: if they change the pathing then it's worth it
I wonder when people will realize that pathing as nothing to do with deatballling
Deathballing is just a matter of units design, which are better in a ball than spreaded in multifront.
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In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance.
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On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance.
I agree so much with you !
Hots is very macro-oriented, but all new units and tweaks done are here to promote multipronged aggression and multitasking... And that's awesome !
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Worth about ~30 euros? Definitely.
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definitely worth it... unless maybe you only play it very occasionally, but if you play it at least a few times a month for the 2-3 years before LotV, then heck yea
it's definitely improving and going into a good direction
does anyone remember the amount of improvement WoL had, compared to its beta? And HotS' beta isn't even done yet!
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It's more than "worth it." It's priceless.
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On January 02 2013 17:47 imBLIND wrote: I'm not creating this thread to discuss balance. That is a debate that will never end. What I want to know is if HotS: [list] [*] Is worth buying and spending time on
we cant discuss this since we cant test all features from hots and the multiplayer balance phase isnt finished yet.
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On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance.
You are a pretty funny guy.
Cmon, U can't be serious?
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Worth it, very excited about launch.
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I think its worth it, even the beta is way more fun in my opinion. My only hope is, that they get Mech working in TvP and get rid of the Reaperwars in TvT.
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On January 02 2013 19:11 Shox85 wrote: I think its worth it, even the beta is way more fun in my opinion. My only hope is, that they get Mech working in TvP and get rid of the Reaperwars in TvT.
In TvT you can already get rid of reaperwars
Just go gas expand, labo on rax
Scout and if you see a rax with laboratory, build marauders (+ concusive ?) If you see a no gas expand, build reapers.
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On January 02 2013 19:04 Crypdos wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2013 18:43 playa wrote: In WoL, Terran can 1a with any kind of early attack and expect to win the majority versus Toss. In HotS, it's nothing but Terran tears. "Dustin Browder set me up. In WoL, all I had to do was 1/1/1 or proxy rax. Now you're telling me I have to learn to macro? Not all-in every single game? Can you direct me to a tutorial on how to be skilful?"
It's pretty much the most beautiful game I've ever played. It ranks up there with Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time. If you can play WoL, a clown game in comparison that should never be taken seriously, and you don't get HotS, then you're either a Terran player that never tried to play a real game or your ideal game is bl/infestor every game. If that's you, good riddance. You are a pretty funny guy. Cmon, U can't be serious?
He must be joking.
HotS right now looks really lazy and on top of that the game is virtually the same if you play Terran. Most people have already left so the clan addition is like providing cushioned seats at a movie theater when the current seats are all empty and the movies they are showing are the same as last year. The singleplayer is completely irrelevant because the story is so shit in SC2 nobody cares anymore, buying a game like starcraft for the singleplayer is like buying battlefield for the campaign.
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I think it's definitely going to be worth it.
At the VERY least, it will be better than WOL was simply by virtue of having all the same units. With newer units that add options to each race, updates to old units that will create better variety, new playstyles being viable, multi-pronged harass being stronger than ever, and all around just having more small things to do that can potentially impact the game, it looks to me like it's going to be a much better game than WOL is.
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Its a trend to hate on SC2 atm, and those who don't are considered fanboys and ignored because of that, but in seriousness SC2 is the BEST game that currently exist, at least for me. While the current metagame is a bit stale, its only because of the maps, and that is why for example the proleague is so exiting. Compare the amount of time per price you did on WoL to other games and you will see it was worth it as hell, that will be the same as for HotS, that is why I see no reason not to get it.
If you really dislike the game so much that your not even going to buy it, then why are you here in the forum? If you're going to say that you simply want to try and improve it, trying to somehow "save" it, then its a non-valid argument, since most of the changes to WoL were given not in the beta, but after it, so the of course at the start HotS will be imbalanced, and as more ways to play it are figured out it will prove to be imbalanced until patches and player creativity will lead to a changing balanced metagame.
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