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Freaking this. Was watching MLG and noticed waaay too many series where Terrans missed burrowed festors going into their mains. Mainly thinking of Flash v. Life extended series. Burrow being harder to see isn't inherently a problem, but when it comes to infestors it's a little bit imbalanced, because of the way they deal damage. All the ITs come out in one wave, whereas a DT or a banshee has to kill workers one at a time the infestors can be dealing damage without even being there. If that mechanic is going to stay, I think they should make it a little bit more visible so the best of us can scan it.
Just me, or is it actually impossible to see burrowed infestors moving? I was watching a replay and switching between viewpoints and I literally could not see them moving from the other player's perspective. Maybe it's a problem with my monitor / graphics settings?
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I dunno. I think most people scan because they are looking actively for the observers. In a game last night GSTL, the terran built a turret at the front of his base and burrowed infestors was a non issue as a result. I think players will learn how to deal with it efficiently.
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On November 10 2012 04:39 habeck wrote: different race, different things. This. I do remember being ableto see burrowed things though. We should ask pros in interviews about this
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
NO
I know people are having trouble with Zerg right now, but are we gonna seriously blame BURROW for that?! wtf, some of the most entertaining plays are done with burrow, whyyyy the hell would we want to reduce that?
Jeessuz.
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I don`t see it as a problem. I think we don`t see burrowed movement units getting spotted often is because players don`t often go and burrow right beneath your army. It certainly doesn`t have the same frequency like a banshee or observer flying around inside bases.
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other race other stuff ... noone complains that zerg is the only race that cant actively attack while burrowed/cloaked. Please dont compare apples with pears.
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On November 10 2012 07:48 MCDayC wrote: NO
I know people are having trouble with Zerg right now, but are we gonna seriously blame BURROW for that?! wtf, some of the most entertaining plays are done with burrow, whyyyy the hell would we want to reduce that?
Jeessuz. I dont think this thread is directed at the "problems we have with zerg" i think its purely directed at the cloak and burrow mechanics.
i see nothing wrong with this at all tbh.
i didnt relate this thread in any way to the overarching issues about zerg that are being discussed in other threads.
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it looks like the ground is wavy, on low quiality everything it's really easy to see borrow, on medium i struggle, on extream/ultra settings it's really easy to see because its like somone did a bad colouring job where the borrowed units are,
singular units depends on the textures to be honest, the busy looking textures like dirt, anything without contrasts with lines etc makes it harder to see.
but in general it's blurring/wavey of textures you look for, where as cloaked has shiny bits
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I don't like this way of dealing with things.
Problem: Terran's cannot see burrowed infestors to scan.
Solution: Make it more visible. (WRONG).
If they're burrowing a bunch of infestors under your army, get one god damn Raven and stop qqing. Adapt to the situation. In situations where trial and error goes on and something is generally too powerful, then sure make adjustments. I.e Protoss against 1-1-1, Immortal range became 6 instead of 5.
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On November 10 2012 07:52 LOLItsRyann wrote: I don't like this way of dealing with things.
Problem: Terran's cannot see burrowed infestors to scan.
Solution: Make it more visible. (WRONG).
If they're burrowing a bunch of infestors under your army, get one god damn Raven and stop qqing. Adapt to the situation. In situations where trial and error goes on and something is generally too powerful, then sure make adjustments. I.e Protoss against 1-1-1, Immortal range became 6 instead of 5. by that logic i could say make cloaked and burrowed units completely invisible. so that you need detection for cloak and burrow.
that way they are both even and require detection.
ofc thats also an option
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United Kingdom14464 Posts
On November 10 2012 07:51 LOLingBuddha wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 07:48 MCDayC wrote: NO
I know people are having trouble with Zerg right now, but are we gonna seriously blame BURROW for that?! wtf, some of the most entertaining plays are done with burrow, whyyyy the hell would we want to reduce that?
Jeessuz. I dont think this thread is directed at the "problems we have with zerg" i think its purely directed at the cloak and burrow mechanics. i see nothing wrong with this at all tbh. i didnt relate this thread in any way to the overarching issues about zerg that are being discussed in other threads. but you know (or maybe you don't, but still) that people are responding because of Zerg's perceived OPness right now, and thats why people are agreeing with this.
If you did this when Zerg had like hardly any players in the GSL or when Ghosts were kicking ass, this wouldn't have had nearly as good a response.
And it still shouldn't be getting a good response now. Different races are different, homogenising races is baaaad thing.
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On November 10 2012 07:58 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 07:51 LOLingBuddha wrote:On November 10 2012 07:48 MCDayC wrote: NO
I know people are having trouble with Zerg right now, but are we gonna seriously blame BURROW for that?! wtf, some of the most entertaining plays are done with burrow, whyyyy the hell would we want to reduce that?
Jeessuz. I dont think this thread is directed at the "problems we have with zerg" i think its purely directed at the cloak and burrow mechanics. i see nothing wrong with this at all tbh. i didnt relate this thread in any way to the overarching issues about zerg that are being discussed in other threads. but you know (or maybe you don't, but still) that people are responding because of Zerg's perceived OPness right now, and thats why people are agreeing with this. If you did this when Zerg had like hardly any players in the GSL or when Ghosts were kicking ass, this wouldn't have had nearly as good a response. And it still shouldn't be getting a good response now. Different races are different, homogenising races is baaaad thing. possible, i can only speak for myself of course
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On November 10 2012 06:10 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:03 zJayy962 wrote: Burrowed units can't attack. Cloaked units can attack. Thats basically the end of the argument. You're comparing apples and oranges just because they are fruit. You've got to be kidding me. They are NOTHING except you need detection to see either. ANYONE can spot a cloaked unit unless they are blind. It's near impossible to see moving burrowed units in the heat of the game. On topic, now that I think about it, I don't even understand why infestors can move while burrowed. Wtf?
Your argument is flawed because you're arguing something that is subjective, it might be easier for me to see a discoloring of terrain than it is for me to see the terrain changing slightly. To be even more accurate, it might be easier for my brain to process one over the other. The status of someone's eyes might not have anything at all to do with it.
The biggest difference between them is that cloaked units, because they attack, and because they come in through pretty standard paths, give indications of their existence. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing that might be a bit overpowered about them is that they aren't stopped by non-burrowed unit collision.
Because burrowed units from zerg cannot fly, they have to go through the terrain to get anywhere sneaky. Yes they can be dropped, but there's no reason that a terran player can't have a turret in the common drop areas, or the protoss a cannon.
You also have to understand that each of the 3 basic ground casters have ways to avoid death. Ghosts can cloak, templars can turn into archons, infestors can burrow. Those means of avoiding death can also be offensive, in that archons do damage, ghosts can cloak to snipe/nuke/get easier emp's, and infestors can use burrow to position themselves in a place that they can better fungal, get off NP's, or drop infested terrans.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with infestor's burrowed movement, and I'd argue you would have to get rid of ghost cloak and archons to compensate for it's removal.
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Burrowed units can't attack while being burrowed. Cloaked units can.
Only exception are Infested Terrans, whose damage can be prevented unless there is a big amount of them or you are out of position. The big amounts need about four Infestors and are a massive energy investment, so I would argue that other cloaked harrass options are on par in terms of cost-efficiency.
I don't see a problem here.
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Burrow is harder to see, I'll grant you that, but I think it's a nice mechanic and doesn't need to be nerfed. Burrowed infestors can be trouble, but anything like burrowed roaches, is usually and all or nothing play, unlike Banshee's for example.
A lot of the difference in spotting cloak vs burrow comes down to two things I think. 1. Burrow simply isn't used as much as cloaked units are. Players aren't expecting it and therefore not looking. 2. Observer positions are very predictable and thus easily spotted. Don't attribute 4-5 observers being sniped in a game down to visibility alone.
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There is no problem, i think.
The thing with observers is that they are a necessity for protoss. You can be almost certain that an observer is near your army, inside your base or just outside the protoss' base. So searching for them is almost natural. When the day comes we see infestors moving into their opponents base every single game, people would focus on it and find them a lot faster.
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God im tired of all this shit,
u would maybe like to add another poll, "add cloak upg for DT's ?"
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If you're considering a change that can be done to the infestor, one of many possible ideas is to make burrow move an upgrade that they have to tech. Make it alongside Pathogen Glands in the Infestation Pit. Either that or make burrow move use up energy. The thing about this is that Infestors (once burrow is researched) pretty much always have a way to escape engagements. They can spam/trade energy for units, then burrow and run away until their energy returns.
Terran Ghost, for example, cannot do that. After the ghost uses up all his energy for spells, there is no way for him to escape undetected, since cloak costs energy as well. So the ghosts pretty much always die, while the infestors most of the time, escape to fight another day.
This is just one example of how grossly unbalanced the infestor is when it compares to the Terran Ghost for example. Not to mention costs/damage of spells and research times as well.
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On November 10 2012 09:25 `dunedain wrote: If you're considering a change that can be done to the infestor, one of many possible ideas is to make burrow move an upgrade that they have to tech. Make it alongside Pathogen Glands in the Infestation Pit. Either that or make burrow move use up energy. The thing about this is that Infestors (once burrow is researched) pretty much always have a way to escape engagements. They can spam/trade energy for units, then burrow and run away until their energy returns.
Terran Ghost, for example, cannot do that. After the ghost uses up all his energy for spells, there is no way for him to escape undetected, since cloak costs energy as well. So the ghosts pretty much always die, while the infestors most of the time, escape to fight another day.
This is just one example of how grossly unbalanced the infestor is when it compares to the Terran Ghost for example. Not to mention costs/damage of spells and research times as well.
Lets look at how grossly imbalanced marines are to zerglings. See how 10 marines with stim and combat shields can take out countless number of zerglings when they are completely walled in? This is definitely a great comparison when we compare 2 different units independently therefore a change must be made!
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eh. i always thought finding those damned burrowed infestors are hard (like unnecessarily hard) but i actually don't mind it in the grand scheme of things. makes paying more attention to everything so much more important. and also catching those bastards so much more satisfying.
leave it in as is please
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