On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
I think the reason you can't tell Korean players apart is not because they play similarly, but because you personally don't watch enough games of them. You admit to not watching GSL and there's just not many other sources of exposure for Koreans. For example, I can personally distinguish between around 10 different Protoss players just by looking at their play. Similar with Terran and Zerg. I think Squirtle and Parting, two of the most exposed Koreans, actually don't play similarly except for perhaps some of their openings, which they share with each other. And other Korean Protosses don't use those openings, because they're Startale openings.
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
I think the reason you can't tell Korean players apart is not because they play similarly, but because you personally don't watch enough games of them. You admit to not watching GSL and there's just not many other sources of exposure for Koreans. For example, I can personally distinguish between around 10 different Protoss players just by looking at their play. Similar with Terran and Zerg. I think Squirtle and Parting, two of the most exposed Koreans, actually don't play similarly except for perhaps some of their openings, which they share with each other. And other Korean Protosses don't use those openings, because they're Startale openings.
I agree in part, and that goes back to the original point I was trying to make. People like watching foreigners because they are more accessible. The GSL is the only place to watch a variety of Koreans, but you have to pay to watch the VODs or stay up/wake up at an ungodly hour to see them. And even then, the quality of the GSL stream leaves so much to be desired that it isn't, in my opinion, worth it at all.
On August 14 2012 12:49 Waxangel wrote: it's racism, but you don't have to be afraid of the word
reminds me of the sheth question in liquid rising haha
On August 14 2012 12:53 Dexington wrote: I agree in part, and that goes back to the original point I was trying to make. People like watching foreigners because they are more accessible. The GSL is the only place to watch a variety of Koreans, but you have to pay to watch the VODs or stay up/wake up at an ungodly hour to see them. And even then, the quality of the GSL stream leaves so much to be desired that it isn't, in my opinion, worth it at all.
yeah time definitely is an issue - personally for myself, since i am australian time zone, the only major sc2 tournament that i can easily watch is GSL. sure i stay up for IEM MLG IPL etc, but GSL is just easier for me, so i have easy access to korean play! lol
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
I think the reason you can't tell Korean players apart is not because they play similarly, but because you personally don't watch enough games of them. You admit to not watching GSL and there's just not many other sources of exposure for Koreans. For example, I can personally distinguish between around 10 different Protoss players just by looking at their play. Similar with Terran and Zerg. I think Squirtle and Parting, two of the most exposed Koreans, actually don't play similarly except for perhaps some of their openings, which they share with each other. And other Korean Protosses don't use those openings, because they're Startale openings.
I agree in part, and that goes back to the original point I was trying to make. People like watching foreigners because they are more accessible. The GSL is the only place to watch a variety of Koreans, but you have to pay to watch the VODs or stay up/wake up at an ungodly hour to see them. And even then, the quality of the GSL stream leaves so much to be desired that it isn't, in my opinion, worth it at all.
Basically I agree with your overall sentiment, but I think Squirtle and Parting are bad examples, because they both have rather unique styles and are very exposed. It's just that most of their games come from GSL, which you don't watch. You'd have more of a point with players like First, Tear, finale, and Vampire, because they're not very exposed. Or Killer and Alicia, because they're both players who are both very exposed, but don't really have distinguishable styles.
On August 14 2012 12:49 Waxangel wrote: it's racism, but you don't have to be afraid of the word
You can think what you want and I won't label you a racist.
On August 14 2012 12:53 NrGmonk wrote:
On August 14 2012 12:35 Dexington wrote:
On August 14 2012 12:18 ZAiNs wrote:
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
I think the reason you can't tell Korean players apart is not because they play similarly, but because you personally don't watch enough games of them. You admit to not watching GSL and there's just not many other sources of exposure for Koreans. For example, I can personally distinguish between around 10 different Protoss players just by looking at their play. Similar with Terran and Zerg. I think Squirtle and Parting, two of the most exposed Koreans, actually don't play similarly except for perhaps some of their openings, which they share with each other. And other Korean Protosses don't use those openings, because they're Startale openings.
I agree in part, and that goes back to the original point I was trying to make. People like watching foreigners because they are more accessible. The GSL is the only place to watch a variety of Koreans, but you have to pay to watch the VODs or stay up/wake up at an ungodly hour to see them. And even then, the quality of the GSL stream leaves so much to be desired that it isn't, in my opinion, worth it at all.
Basically I agree with your overall sentiment, but I think Squirtle and Parting are bad examples, because they both have rather unique styles and are very exposed. It's just that most of their games come from GSL, which you don't watch. You'd have more of a point with players like First, Tear, finale, and Vampire, because they're not very exposed. Or Killer and Alicia, because they're both players who are both very exposed, but don't really have distinguishable styles.
I actually brought up Squirtle and Parting because they were the most different players I could think of. Perhaps I worded what I was trying to say incorrectly.
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
as far as i'm aware that's more of a difference (collosus heavy with 2-base squirtle timings vs. epic templar control) than any of the european toss really show haha :p
Have you seen any of Bischu's PvT outside of his series vs Taeja? He does the funkiest openings of anyone. Mana is the primary Colossus user, obviously, but then there's guys like HasuObs who constantly send wave after wave of three Zealots at his opponent through the game.
My point is that every Korean Protoss I see play uses some small variant of either Squirtle or Parting play rather than finding their own style.
Really?
HerO --> warp prism play Puzzle --> Blink stalker micro Creator --> Heavy upgrades Inca --> DTs MC --> Forcefields and agression Tassadar -->voidrays Seed --> mix of ultra aggression or fast 3rd while defending
In fact, I would say most foreigners are much more passive and try to build a colossi death ball.
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
as far as i'm aware that's more of a difference (collosus heavy with 2-base squirtle timings vs. epic templar control) than any of the european toss really show haha :p
Have you seen any of Bischu's PvT outside of his series vs Taeja? He does the funkiest openings of anyone. Mana is the primary Colossus user, obviously, but then there's guys like HasuObs who constantly send wave after wave of three Zealots at his opponent through the game.
My point is that every Korean Protoss I see play uses some small variant of either Squirtle or Parting play rather than finding their own style.
Really?
HerO --> warp prism play Puzzle --> Blink stalker micro Creator --> Heavy upgrades Inca --> DTs MC --> Forcefields and agression Tassadar -->voidrays Seed --> mix of ultra aggression or fast 3rd while defending
In fact, I would say most foreigners are much more passive and try to build a colossi death ball.
Every Protoss uses WP, Blink stalker and heavy upgrade play pretty much. Nobody quite has MC's aggression, but you can't say he uniquely uses forcefields.
On August 14 2012 10:02 murphs wrote: 7 boring faceless koreans left, except for Keen, he does have that cool gif. Would be cool if the wee Scotsman can make it happen but the moment he's out I don't give a damn about TSL anymore.
yea they are boring and faceless because they are korean.
good logic. get the fuck out
he didn't say they were boring and faceless only because the were korean.
stop getting butthurt and twisting his sentence. he merely stated that they are boring and faceless, and happen to be korean. i had never even heard of First before TSL. It's just really boring to watch people that have no personality for an english speaking audience.
um bullshit.
He definitely is calling them faceless because they are Korean. not butthurt at all, just hate racism.
Oh yea you're watching a stream of sc2 gameplay, you're not watching them singing or dancing. And there's no interviews with players in this tournament from what I have seen thus far, so you're statement is null.
The only thing you are watching is the players playing and thats the entertainment, their skill.
Not bullshit.
You get emotionally invested into players that you get attached to, whether from past performances or interviews or their stream, yada yada yada. This group of Koreans, outside of Keen, has not shown any of his personality and therefore do not get any of the emotional followers that a player like Naniwa gets.
You understand the only reason foreigners are in this tournament is because they held tons of separate qualifiers so the foreigners could duke it out among themselves? If the qualifiers were worldwide there would probably only be 2-3 foreigners in the entire tournament. Skillwise, the gap is just too big.
I mean, if you want to watch the Charlotte Bobcats play the Miami Heat 100 times, just praying for a couple upsets, that's cool I guess.
Foreigner only tournaments get the lowest views, so people obviously know they are bad. But Korean vs Foreigner get the highest which I don't understand. Why are you rooting for a vastly inferior player to upset a Korean lol? The fact that foreigners couldn't even compete with BW korean pros, but can get fluke wins in SC2 should be a bad thing! It should make you upset!
Personally, I'd rather watch two players with 220 epm playing eachother, than one person with 220 epm and the other with 150 playing eachother. I value skill over "personality"-- I guess Kas crying in every tournament ever means personality.
You understand that foreigners continuously beat Koreans at foreign tournaments, right? Not just the same foreigners, and while there are not many of them, they do exist.
Also, what tournaments are you talking about? There are tonnes of foreign tournaments that get massive viewership, while afaik, only two Korean tournaments that have falling Korean viewership. Foreign only tournaments hardly exist anymore, the Koreans are there to make a big story if a foreign player beats them.
On August 14 2012 11:07 Pokebunny wrote: Why is it hard for people to understand that people are more naturally attracted to watching and rooting for players that are more similar to them, or seem more unique and interesting to them?
I mean great if you only care about high level play and want to watch the best players, that's your choice. But you can't tell someone they're dumb just because they aren't interested in certain players. And no, it's not being racist to be less interested in Korean players. There are hundreds of really really high level Korean players that often seem interchangeable, which makes them less unique and interesting than their foreign counterparts. That is not racism...
Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
Koreans have similar playstyles because they're the best playstyles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would I rather watch Naama's unique TvP that has net him a whopping 49% international winrate (don't know how in the flying fuck that constitutes as "successful playstyle, especially since it's vs foreigners but ok"), or players like Sting, Hack, and Keen who are better than nearly every foreign pro on the planet.
You can say you like foreigners more than koreans all you like, but please just have the balls to admit you like them because of where they're born and not their skill. Nearly every korean on every korean team is better than every foreigner, and Stephano and Naniwa are the only ones you could even make a case for.
On August 14 2012 10:02 murphs wrote: 7 boring faceless koreans left, except for Keen, he does have that cool gif. Would be cool if the wee Scotsman can make it happen but the moment he's out I don't give a damn about TSL anymore.
yea they are boring and faceless because they are korean.
good logic. get the fuck out
he didn't say they were boring and faceless only because the were korean.
stop getting butthurt and twisting his sentence. he merely stated that they are boring and faceless, and happen to be korean. i had never even heard of First before TSL. It's just really boring to watch people that have no personality for an english speaking audience.
um bullshit.
He definitely is calling them faceless because they are Korean. not butthurt at all, just hate racism.
Oh yea you're watching a stream of sc2 gameplay, you're not watching them singing or dancing. And there's no interviews with players in this tournament from what I have seen thus far, so you're statement is null.
The only thing you are watching is the players playing and thats the entertainment, their skill.
Not bullshit.
You get emotionally invested into players that you get attached to, whether from past performances or interviews or their stream, yada yada yada. This group of Koreans, outside of Keen, has not shown any of his personality and therefore do not get any of the emotional followers that a player like Naniwa gets.
You understand the only reason foreigners are in this tournament is because they held tons of separate qualifiers so the foreigners could duke it out among themselves? If the qualifiers were worldwide there would probably only be 2-3 foreigners in the entire tournament. Skillwise, the gap is just too big.
I mean, if you want to watch the Charlotte Bobcats play the Miami Heat 100 times, just praying for a couple upsets, that's cool I guess.
Foreigner only tournaments get the lowest views, so people obviously know they are bad. But Korean vs Foreigner get the highest which I don't understand. Why are you rooting for a vastly inferior player to upset a Korean lol? The fact that foreigners couldn't even compete with BW korean pros, but can get fluke wins in SC2 should be a bad thing! It should make you upset!
Personally, I'd rather watch two players with 220 epm playing eachother, than one person with 220 epm and the other with 150 playing eachother. I value skill over "personality"-- I guess Kas crying in every tournament ever means personality.
You understand that foreigners continuously beat Koreans at foreign tournaments, right? Not just the same foreigners, and while there are not many of them, they do exist.
Also, what tournaments are you talking about? There are tonnes of foreign tournaments that get massive viewership, while afaik, only two Korean tournaments that have falling Korean viewership. Foreign only tournaments hardly exist anymore, the Koreans are there to make a big story if a foreign player beats them.
On August 14 2012 11:07 Pokebunny wrote: Why is it hard for people to understand that people are more naturally attracted to watching and rooting for players that are more similar to them, or seem more unique and interesting to them?
I mean great if you only care about high level play and want to watch the best players, that's your choice. But you can't tell someone they're dumb just because they aren't interested in certain players. And no, it's not being racist to be less interested in Korean players. There are hundreds of really really high level Korean players that often seem interchangeable, which makes them less unique and interesting than their foreign counterparts. That is not racism...
Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
Koreans have similar playstyles because they're the best playstyles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Would I rather watch Naama's unique TvP that has net him a whopping 49% international winrate (don't know how in the flying fuck that constitutes as "successful playstyle, especially since it's vs foreigners but ok"), or players like Sting, Hack, and Keen who are better than nearly every foreign pro on the planet.
You can say you like foreigners more than koreans all you like, but please just have the balls to admit you like them because of where they're born and not their skill. Nearly every korean on every korean team is better than every foreigner, and Stephano and Naniwa are the only ones you could even make a case for.
Yeah, don't read anything I said on this page that further explained my argument, just call me racist like Waxangel did.
Anyway, I'm done explaining to myself to people who won't try to understand. It was a good discussion with Monk at least. Enjoy the rest of your tournament.
OK I let it slide this morning but since this flamed up again I will add my 2 cents.
Personally, I think people should be able to enjoy what they enjoy. The SC2 community has this very elitist attitude which breaks people after awhile. You either fall in the righteous Korean-only camp or you are an evil racist.
Except this logic is mean and it sucks.
Here is what you are saying basically:
Y: So X, whos your favorite football/soccer team in this game between Barcelona and Seattle? X: Seattle Sounders Y: LOLWTFNoob you must be racist because they aren't Barcelona. Obviously you hate Spanish people. That's obviously the only possible reason. X: No dude, I just love Seattle, was born in NW and wear their jerseys. Y: Wow those are some shitty reasons. Don't you only find the "best" player and root for them? I do. Theres this team in the world thats far better than Seattle Sounders FC and I root for them to see the best games. I am all about the games. X: So you don't root for any "foreigners". Y: LOL Why? So I can see horrible games? See ya. <six months later> X: Hey Y, how is Barcelona doing? Y: Oh I dunno n00b. Doing the math I found out Munich was better than Spain this year. Now I follow them to see the best games. You still following that awful American team? So what, you are racist against Germans? Damn, bro you have issues. I found the best games. :D X: .....
Moral: It doesn't always have to be some single minded drone to find "the best games" whatever it means. Maybe people just want to sympathize with people like they are.
Don't you think that is why Stephano stream is 11k viewers and Idras often 6-7k and Demuslim is 3k but lets see... oh yeah Hwangsin who is 100 times better than Idra has... 99 viewers. Oh boy. But games have to be > all. Obviously.
I am not trolling just giving my 2 cents on why I think people would root for a worse player from a regional area.
well i suppose that we just have to hope that recco beats keen somehow, because i really have next to no interest in any of the other players. i guess keen seems cool as he does ceremonies and curious will at least six pool occasionally (although if he does that when there's not teamkill weirdness, idk), but that entire other half of the draw is meh
Maybe it is racism at work here. I won't speak for the rest of the fans, but I'll give a bit of my thoughts.
I've lost a lot of interest in this tournament in the Ro16, basically to a point where I really don't mind who wins in the end. It wasn't because almost all the foreigners are gone, no, it is because the player I was rooting for, Coca, is out. To me, I don't have any very strong feelings in particular towards any of the remaining players: Life is cool, Curious I think is a great and underrated player, and Keen is quite charismatic, but I don't really care too much who ends up winning now that the player I was pulling for is out.
For me personally it is not just a Korean vs foreigner thing, but a fan favorite vs unknown thing. If the remaining players were MVP, Nestea, MKP, MMA, DRG, MC, etc. then there would still be a ton of interest in this tournament.
I don't really enjoy watching players that I know little about playing. I just don't know that much about them, and I don't really care. Now often times, tournaments are often filled with Koreans that I know little about, and thus I have little interest in. At least for me, I lose interest in watching a player not because he is Korean, but because I don't really know the guy.
If the final 8 had been Glon, Bischu, mycerion, Ziktomeni, Masa, Puck, fraer, Abver, or something like that...honestly I wouldn't be very interested either even if they showed solid play (just solid, nothing impressive). I don't really know any of them, and I probably spelled half their names wrong. I don't feel a connection to them, and I don't have any particular emotional investment with these guys, I just don't really care how they do unfortunately.
Another example: Went to WCS China with a friend, didn't really know many of the Chinese players (Xigua, Macsed, Loner, got knocked out relatively early), and found out despite the great production, I really didn't care who won.
That's just me. I have no interest in seeing how JRecco does, because I don't know him, I'm not Scottish, and he's just basically another faceless Zerg to me right now. I know little about his personality unfortunately, and that means my enthusiasm just isn't there.
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
as far as i'm aware that's more of a difference (collosus heavy with 2-base squirtle timings vs. epic templar control) than any of the european toss really show haha :p
Have you seen any of Bischu's PvT outside of his series vs Taeja? He does the funkiest openings of anyone. Mana is the primary Colossus user, obviously, but then there's guys like HasuObs who constantly send wave after wave of three Zealots at his opponent through the game.
My point is that every Korean Protoss I see play uses some small variant of either Squirtle or Parting play rather than finding their own style.
Really?
HerO --> warp prism play Puzzle --> Blink stalker micro Creator --> Heavy upgrades Inca --> DTs MC --> Forcefields and agression Tassadar -->voidrays Seed --> mix of ultra aggression or fast 3rd while defending
In fact, I would say most foreigners are much more passive and try to build a colossi death ball.
Every Protoss uses WP, Blink stalker and heavy upgrade play pretty much. Nobody quite has MC's aggression, but you can't say he uniquely uses forcefields.
That's like saying every Terran uses bio timing, mech, or mass ravens+BC+ Vikings. Well no duh everyone uses the core units/mechanics.
The only reason why Koreans SEEMS more homogenize is because their BUILDS are generally better and more optimized. But that doesn't mean their playstyle aren't just as diverse. I mean sure, there are going to be people that comes up with game breaking new builds once in a blue moon, like how Slayers abused Blue Flame Helions a while ago; but if that didn't get nerfed, I can guarantee you that 95%+ of the Koreans will be opening with BFH. Why? Because you're risking your own chances to win by not using the best strats.
But that doesn't mean the players aren't unique. For example, all the Terrans can still open BFH, but MKP will have a much more aggressive and micro oriented style, MMA will have a heavy harass multitask style, MVP will do nothing special but just completely out play you with superior mechanics, while someone like Top will sit back and tries to outmacro you.
TLDR: Point is, you either have to be a genius like Boxer, or be stupid to not use optimized builds in the current meta just so you can be "unique". Most of your so called "unique" foreigners will probably get hammered by the Koreans because they are less optimized. But just cuz your builds look similar, that doesn't mean your play style can't be unique.
how about instead of blaming the koreans for roflstomping the white people, blame the white people for getting roflstomped by the koreans. its not like theres some sort of genetic predisposition for koreans to be able to maul foreigners. they just have better infra, training, and coaches.
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
as far as i'm aware that's more of a difference (collosus heavy with 2-base squirtle timings vs. epic templar control) than any of the european toss really show haha :p
Have you seen any of Bischu's PvT outside of his series vs Taeja? He does the funkiest openings of anyone. Mana is the primary Colossus user, obviously, but then there's guys like HasuObs who constantly send wave after wave of three Zealots at his opponent through the game.
My point is that every Korean Protoss I see play uses some small variant of either Squirtle or Parting play rather than finding their own style.
Really?
HerO --> warp prism play Puzzle --> Blink stalker micro Creator --> Heavy upgrades Inca --> DTs MC --> Forcefields and agression Tassadar -->voidrays Seed --> mix of ultra aggression or fast 3rd while defending
In fact, I would say most foreigners are much more passive and try to build a colossi death ball.
Every Protoss uses WP, Blink stalker and heavy upgrade play pretty much. Nobody quite has MC's aggression, but you can't say he uniquely uses forcefields.
Yes, and I mine minerals and gas with SCVs and make buildings and units. So I guess I play the same style as MVP... Or Naama for that matter since you find his playstyle so much more interesting.
On August 14 2012 15:43 fishjie wrote: lol at all the racism
how about instead of blaming the koreans for roflstomping the white people, blame the white people for getting roflstomped by the koreans. its not like theres some sort of genetic predisposition for koreans to be able to maul foreigners. they just have better infra, training, and coaches.
I don't understand why people always make this claim with so much certainty. People are born equal, as in deserving of the same rights, but they aren't born the same. Most people accept that Africans/African Americans are born with more fast twitch muscle fibers than other races and perform better in sports like the 100m/200m and basketball, (there have been studies on this, read http://www.constructal.org/en/art/THE_EVOLUTION_OF_SPEED_IN ATHLETICS.pdf) while other races perform better in distance races and swimming events. People are easy to accept physical differences among races, but REFUSE to accept any form of mental difference. Look, IQ studies have shown that South Korea has a higher IQ than other countries in the world. And before you dismiss IQ as having no impact on SC2 performance, look at the best chess players of all time. Many top level grandmaster chess players have IQs over 160! You're say this correlation means nothing?
IQ doesn't mean everything of course, but it is a factor and it's largely determining of one's success. Look at studies done to measure the average IQ of various occupations. College professors and Surgeons are at the summit and janitors are at the bottom.
It's easy as hell to say, "given enough hard work and dedication foreigners would be as good as Koreans." Given enough hardwork and dedication would you or I be an NBA player? FUCK NO. Could we be grandmaster chess players? FUCK NO. Could Avilo be IMMVP? Well, answer for yourself. Who knows? Anything is possible right?
TL will really have to put so much into promoting these 7 random B Level Koreans to produce half of last TSLs hype, because a huge majority is simply not interested in these players. Saying that as someone who knew each of them before.
On August 14 2012 15:43 fishjie wrote: lol at all the racism
how about instead of blaming the koreans for roflstomping the white people, blame the white people for getting roflstomped by the koreans. its not like theres some sort of genetic predisposition for koreans to be able to maul foreigners. they just have better infra, training, and coaches.
I don't understand why people always make this claim with so much certainty. People are born equal, as in deserving of the same rights, but they aren't born the same. Most people accept that Africans/African Americans are born with more fast twitch muscle fibers than other races and perform better in sports like the 100m/200m and basketball, (there have been studies on this, read http://www.constructal.org/en/art/THE_EVOLUTION_OF_SPEED_IN ATHLETICS.pdf) while other races perform better in distance races and swimming events. People are easy to accept physical differences among races, but REFUSE to accept any form of mental difference. Look, IQ studies have shown that South Korea has a higher IQ than other countries in the world. And before you dismiss IQ as having no impact on SC2 performance, look at the best chess players of all time. Many top level grandmaster chess players have IQs over 160! You're say this correlation means nothing?
IQ doesn't mean everything of course, but it is a factor and it's largely determining of one's success. Look at studies done to measure the average IQ of various occupations. College professors and Surgeons are at the summit and janitors are at the bottom.
It's easy as hell to say, "given enough hard work and dedication foreigners would be as good as Koreans." Given enough hardwork and dedication would you or I be an NBA player? FUCK NO. Could we be grandmaster chess players? FUCK NO. Could Avilo be IMMVP? Well, answer for yourself. Who knows? Anything is possible right?
But the speed example and the NBA example (which size has advantage) are a lot more physical than the advantage in SC2. You're pretty much implying that the Koreans are born genetically better at SC2 (or games in general), which I doubt is true.
On August 14 2012 16:53 TigerKarl wrote: TL will really have to put so much into promoting these 7 random B Level Koreans to produce half of last TSLs hype, because a huge majority is simply not interested in these players. Saying that as someone who knew each of them before.
On August 14 2012 11:10 Dexington wrote:Pokebunny hits it on the head. I would gladly watch Naama play all day because he has a unique and successful playstyle, rather than watching Korean Protoss B who plays the same as everyone else.
What is 'Korean Protoss B'. There are more unique play styles in Korea considering the high-level player pool is so much larger. Naama has a unique TvP style (that he doesn't use all the time by the way, for example vs MC in Assembly he played bio all 3 games), but so do Hack, Byun, Happy and MarineKing...
What I mean is that Koreans all play extremely similar. Look at Squirtle and Parting, two of the biggest and best Korean Protoss. The only difference between them is that one plays Templar heavy and the other plays Colossus heavy. The only Korean I remember having a style that was quite clearly his and unique recently is Moon.
Maybe things have changed since I gave up on watching GSL due to a myriad of issues I have with their tournament, but the Korean scene just felt stale to me after a while.
I think the reason you can't tell Korean players apart is not because they play similarly, but because you personally don't watch enough games of them. You admit to not watching GSL and there's just not many other sources of exposure for Koreans. For example, I can personally distinguish between around 10 different Protoss players just by looking at their play. Similar with Terran and Zerg. I think Squirtle and Parting, two of the most exposed Koreans, actually don't play similarly except for perhaps some of their openings, which they share with each other. And other Korean Protosses don't use those openings, because they're Startale openings.
Well since there is probably a perfect (=most effective and efficient) way to achieve things, being able to distinguish players isnt actually something positive but only shows that even the best players (or scientists/politicians...... ) dont really know what they are doing.
Anyway. They way I see it: people want to be able to connect to the players, on an emotional level. Cheering for someone is probably a lot easier if you care about the person, whether it is because of his nationality, unique style of play, character, clan/team, what ever. So if there are a lot of korean players among the best and you like StarCraft2 but not the player, you shouldnt blame the players or people not liking them. That is so stupid I have to laugh writing this. You have to blame the teams, tournament organizers, websites (like teamliquid)... for not providing enough coverage.
I'm pretty sure that if there were blogs, interviews, photos of all the korean players, and if you knew how little they earned, how hard it was for them to get where they are, how much time they spent etc bla bla, you would be able to develop the same kind of empathy/sympathy that you develdoped for your favourite whatever it is now. South korean nationality probably has very little to do with it, lol