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Watch the recent GSL games with Symbol against MarineKing and YuGiOh against MarineKing.
+ Show Spoiler +Marineking 2:1 YuGiOh--YuGiOh wins only with a bane bust when MarineKing didnt have a simcity wall? wtf? MarineKing against Symbol --> Use of Ravens in game 1 by MarineKing... I think it has tons of potential to rape zerg armies. Thors also do very well against Broods AND Ultralisks instead of Tanks and don't need to be sieged. TvZ isn't dead, bro.
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Assuming for the sake of argument there's a genuine problem, I can't be the only one to have seen this coming a mile away. It's an inevitable consequence of Zerg's weird racial design.
Think about how the value of investing into economy, tech and army varies over the course of a game and in different situations. What does Zerg's graph look like? Everything except economy is really, really poor value for money for a lot longer than with the other two races and in many more situations, right? So Zergs always need to be able to invest in economy regardless of which option their opponents choose.
How can they survive to do this? It can't really be lings because lings have had to be weakened to compensate for the larva mechanic. It can't be gas units because that precludes investing in economy. It can only be queens, spine and spore crawlers. And that's exactly where we've ended up: all Zergs need to make is queens and spines because that's all they can reasonably be expected to make because everything else is a terrible investment.
Nor is HotS going to fix anything. Zerg still won't have anything worth teching to on less than three bases or any units worth building early on. They'll still need to survive using queens and spines.
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On June 20 2012 16:56 EienShinwa wrote:Show nested quote +Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves. Did you really just say that? Did you really say that Zerg will eventually force a fight when it's known that Terran MUST be on the aggression to be equal to Zerg? How can you even say that if you play ZvT? I think you're ridiculous for thinking that a Zerg WOULDN'T run his army from HSM. But the thing is, they will You know why? From a competent Zerg standpoint, you will just get more bases and eventually just steamroll him. There's no need for a Zerg to attack. If you think a Zerg will attack with a "Fuck it" attitude into a terran army with a group of ravens over it, you are either playing at Bronze level or fucking retarded. When the hell did I agree ravens have the potential to be cost efficient? Are you twisting my words? You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Show nested quote + I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
The point I was trying to make might be hard for a Zerg player to understand how hard it is to actually get perfect EMPs, but I'll try. When you are trying to EMP units, your ghosts and his energy units are constantly moving around. As you select a spot to EMP, your enemy units are still moving. What you have to do is guess where his moving units will go and EMP that location, because the EMP is a fucking projectile.Because EMP is a projectile, you have a delay from the time you select the area to be EMP'd and the EMP itself. It's hard to explain to a Zerg who gets EZPZ instant fungal hits. I recommend you try EMPing something on the unit tester and you'll understand what I mean. Oh, and your advice is absolute dog shit. It doesn't even make sense. It's like me telling you to use overlords to place infestors in strategic locations where the Terran army is not at so you can get fungals. No, fuck you. It shouldn't be that much more harder for us just to have a CHANCE at EMPing your infestors while you just drag your infestors along behind your army. I'm just astonished at how stupidly you're trying to make ghosts look effective in TvZ. Ghosts aren't anti-spellcaster units. They ARE spellcaster units, holy shit. How fucking stupid would it be if the only use for ghosts is a counter. They should have an offensive capability, because they are FUCKING SPELLCASTERS LIKE YOUR INFESTORS. Jesus. Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
Show nested quote +You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word? I was hoping you wouldn't take it literally, but to many Terrans, Zerg and Protoss macro seems pretty instantaneous compared to our macro. I also guess you don't know what a hyperbole is. For Protoss, you can warp in x amount of units for x amount of warp gates almost instantly. ANYWHERE you have a pylon. Fucking anywhere. For Zerg, you can click sz on your hatcheries and hold it down for 3 seconds. Then u get x amount of larva used times 2 amount of zerglings instantly once they hatch. For us, they pop out one at a time from the barracks, factory, starport, or command center. One. at a fucking time. Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
Show nested quote +You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part. Do you see how your confirmation bias already makes all my points invalid to you? You think I'm just whining when I'm explaining to you the flaws in your opinions and suggestions. Why do you not even consider to take in what I say and just regurgitate your shit that every single person in this thread is saying "shut the fuck up" to? Why can't you even consider to see this from the Terran perspective instead of the Zerg's? I know you don't want to get nerfed or Terran to get buffed, but the things you say just make you sound fucking ignorant. And also, even though you ask for vods while ignoring the opinions of all pros who SAY that TvZ is imbalanced, why do you try to pin an anecdotal accusation in my face? Why do you care about my experiences in failure when you ignore the anecdotal opinions of so many more qualified progamers? Why are you such a fucking hypocrite? And fyi, you aren't even Terran. Please don't talk to me about taking it from a "competent terran's perspective" when you aren't even trying to see it from our perspective. I'd think you'd say the same thing if I did it to you about Zerg. No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
All that being said, Terran players have a right to bitch,moan, and complain about until this shit gets fixed. Protoss did it, Zerg certainly did it, and we sure as fucking hell should be able to as well without getting a backlash from the other races saying that the game is balanced and there should be no buffs or nerfs. Fuck that mentality. Change is progress and inevitable like you said. Terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened. And yet you still have the balls to bitch about us bitching. This game is still a balance in progress. Like you said, change is inevitable. I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
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On June 20 2012 05:25 imMUTAble787 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 05:16 galtdunn wrote:
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please. Low masters is total scrub league compared to the calibur of play thats being discussed. When did I ever say that I am better than you ? Nowhere. The only thing I pointed out was that you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is laughable that you would even comment on what code S players have to say about the matchup. Especially when you do so in such a manner that implies you have some insight into it that they themselves have not considered/tried before. I'm not going to go through and highlight your idiocy piece by piece just so that you can form some circular arguement that goes nowhere. You kind of proved my point when you cited being low masters as some sort of validation to your ramblings.
What a great discussion thread. I'm happy some of us know what the true problem is: low-masters players on TL.
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On June 21 2012 02:42 beetlelisk wrote:
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about.
i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded? There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be.
There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings. Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive.
I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened". So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on.
I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
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I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation.
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On June 21 2012 05:21 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy. Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about. i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Show nested quote + I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control. Show nested quote +Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded? There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be. There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
Show nested quote +Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings. Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
Show nested quote +No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective. You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive. I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
Show nested quote +I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened". So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on. I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
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On June 21 2012 06:17 EienShinwa wrote: I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation. Try new things, maybe it's worth it.
Come at me people.
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On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:21 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 02:42 beetlelisk wrote: You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy. Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about. i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient. I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Show nested quote + I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control. Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded? There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be. There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. Show nested quote +Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings. Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. Show nested quote +No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective. You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive. I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. Show nested quote +I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened". So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on. I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself. LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered? It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
I'm glad that you're trying to find solutions here, but really, they're rather ridiculous. Sacrificing a raven to, if zerg isn't having a brain aneurysm, to bring a broodlord or two down to half health seems rather silly. Same thing for your medivac infestor idea. It might work in a sandbox/perfect world, but it won't work in an actual game. If Zerg just f-clicks your medivac instead of move commanding into range, only 1 infestor will go in range to fungal. Congrats, now you just lost a medivac and several ghosts for nothing. Not only that, ghosts won't help you do shit in an actual battle beyond "Holy shit I hope he's bad and doesn't know what spreading is."
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On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 05:21 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 02:42 beetlelisk wrote: You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy. Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about. i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient. I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Show nested quote + I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control. Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded? There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be. There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight.You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. Show nested quote +Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings. Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. Show nested quote +No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective. You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive. I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. Show nested quote +I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened". So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on. I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself. LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered? It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
rofl@EMP before the fight. Are you kidding me? I didn't know it was that simple. Damn what valuable insight, I guess everyone who has ever played terran just completely disregarded EMPing everything before the fight.
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haha I asked for it
On June 21 2012 06:42 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 05:21 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 02:42 beetlelisk wrote: You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy. Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about. i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient. I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control. Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded? There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be. There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings. Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective. You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive. I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened". So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on. I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself. LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered? It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here. I'm glad that you're trying to find solutions here, but really, they're rather ridiculous. Sacrificing a raven to, if zerg isn't having a brain aneurysm, to bring a broodlord or two down to half health seems rather silly. Same thing for your medivac infestor idea. It might work in a sandbox/perfect world, but it won't work in an actual game. If Zerg just f-clicks your medivac instead of move commanding into range, only 1 infestor will go in range to fungal. Congrats, now you just lost a medivac and several ghosts for nothing. Not only that, ghosts won't help you do shit in an actual battle beyond "Holy shit I hope he's bad and doesn't know what spreading is." First of all I don't think that ravens are meant to fire HSMs at brood lords. Second, flying close enough with a raven so it gets caught in the blast (just to prevent units running away from HSMs) doesn't mean sacrificing it because HSM deals up to 100 damage and much less at the edge of explosion, and raven has 140 hit points. Wait I don't get it, 1 infestor fungals a medivac so the medivac is lost? It can still unload the ghosts and player can move them away 1 by 1 so all of them don't get caught in the next fungal, and most of all it doesn't have to fly in range of a fungal to unload those ghosts. The thing about ghosts is they don't have to do anything other than EMPing infestors because thanks to EMP being AoE terran doesn't have to spend as much resources to counter infestors as zerg is spending on infestors. In my testing I hit not 4 not 6 but 9 infestors with a single EMP. The average is 4 to 6 infestors being hit which means ideally there is a need for a ghost each 4 to 6 infestors zerg makes. And let's face it: zergs do not spread their infestors.
On June 21 2012 06:43 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 05:21 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 02:42 beetlelisk wrote: You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy. Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about. i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient. I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control. Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded? There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be. There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight.You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings. Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective. You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive. I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened". So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on. I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself. LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered? It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here. rofl@EMP before the fight. Are you kidding me? I didn't know it was that simple. Damn what valuable insight, I guess everyone who has ever played terran just completely disregarded EMPing everything before the fight. I don't know why are you being sarcastic but I see you have nothing to prove this as a wrong approach to the ghost problem.
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On June 21 2012 06:39 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:17 EienShinwa wrote: I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation. Try new things, maybe it's worth it. Come at me people.
You're just flamebaiting. You hardly seem interested in a reasonable discussion.
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Hey this is interesting http://www.team-dignitas.net/articles/blogs/Starcraft-II/1516/The-QXC-Bunker-A-New-Way-to-Contain-Creep-in-TvZ/ Basically Qxc places a bunker at the entrance to zerg's natural to stop creep spread. This of course doesn't fix TvZ but may be of use for you terrans.
On June 21 2012 08:03 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 06:39 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 06:17 EienShinwa wrote: I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation. Try new things, maybe it's worth it. Come at me people. You're just flamebaiting. You hardly seem interested in a reasonable discussion. Yeah and my long as fuck responses clearly show that.
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1 star blog. thanks for the unhinged ravings from a disturbed mind
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I feel like with the beta of HotS comming out soon, even if there are severe balance changes that need to be made, blizzard wont make them
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On June 21 2012 11:16 Burns wrote: I feel like with the beta of HotS comming out soon, even if there are severe balance changes that need to be made, blizzard wont make them Dustin Browder said they would be patching WoL even after HotS came out. Also hots beta is coming but there is no set date for the release so there's still lot's of time to analyze the situation and patch if needed.
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On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote:
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
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On June 21 2012 11:58 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it. Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before. There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional. Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though.
I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more.
Show nested quote +Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers. I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers?
I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please.
Show nested quote +Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army. Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably. Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors.
Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
Show nested quote + LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach.
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On June 21 2012 12:49 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 11:58 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote: I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it. Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before. There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional. Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though. I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more. Show nested quote +Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers. I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death. Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers? I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it. Show nested quote +Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races? We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please. Show nested quote +Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army. Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably. Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors. Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic. Show nested quote + LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race" Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach. Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that.
You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ.
I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance?
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i love the fact that this is only a blog so people can simply type whatever they want. even so i learnt so much by reading from all these detailed arguments. i feel sad because there are people who doesnt stand in our shoe and yet still telling us what to do. i feel like commenting on this blog because im a terran i feel all yall out there and for those who dont feel me why dont u try and experience it to see how us terrans feel. those who feels like this is a whine blog, ur not feeling it bro. however anybody has the right to feel anything and we can alway not give a crap about how someone feels. untill then terran and zerg cant come to an agreement otherwise there wouldnt be TvZ. both Z and T has their own feels to the matchup so who gives a crap about how other race feels. untill then keeps up with yo games terran chaos borns from order and order borns from chaos. change will come. luckyfool i feel u bro.
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