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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 11:59 legaton wrote: Isn't all of this a good example of a teleological argument? All actions are interpreted as posteriori as goal-oriented because everybody is looking for causality (in this case, hacking). I don't know why he moved the army, whatever the reason, he was lucky to do it as it coincidentally helped him to deal with a drop. Coincidences are suspicious? Maybe, but the setting of the Catz/Illusion tribunal show is über biased as they are selecting the moments where the "abnormal" decisions of Spades help him, but they never show when Spades decisions prove to be awful. I saw three of the replays and he actually deals with drops pretty badly more often than not. But of course, if you handpick some stuff, it is easy to create a "suspicious series of coincidences".
I get your point, but even if it wasn't posteriori, that move would look fishy/really lucky in any game.
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On June 05 2012 11:58 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:49 Spades wrote: I am playing very badly. I'm watching the screen. I really wish some hacker would come and clarify how all this works so I dont get called out for some "screen lock" Don't worry, you know you didn't cheat. The way that the screen lock works, and I spent like an hour reading the technical details of that btw since this thread is so popular, it's pretty obvious you weren't using it. For one it's supposedly an option that you have to toggle each time you want to look into the fog of war. In other words you would have to be the most active and yet worst map hacker ever to turn that on every single time you looked into the fog of war. Secondly it auto toggles itself off if you start to do other stuff. So all this talk about your camera being focused on X for a long time being indicative of cheating is wrong since it's very evident that at all times you're performing other actions in that location where the camera is locked ... Otherwise the screen lock would have toggled itself off. It's designed to work that way so that it doesn't look too suspicious. Pretty shocking that people are taking a guy's career so lightly. :/
I commend you for trying to read for an entire hour but you're entirely wrong in that you have to turn it off/on every time. Some have that and some just never ever let you look into the fog of war on the replay cam screen.
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Northern Ireland22228 Posts
On June 05 2012 11:59 legaton wrote: Isn't all of this a good example of a teleological argument? All actions are interpreted as posteriori as goal-oriented because everybody is looking for causality (in this case, hacking). I don't know why he moved the army, whatever the reason, he was lucky to do it as it coincidentally helped him to deal with a drop. Coincidences are suspicious? Maybe, but the setting of the Catz/Illusion tribunal show is über biased as they are selecting the moments where the "abnormal" decisions of Spades help him, but they never show when Spades decisions prove to be awful. I saw three of the replays and he actually deals with drops pretty badly more often than not. But of course, if you handpick some stuff, it is easy to create a "suspicious series of coincidences". Wow, a sensible post, mind is blown.
Nice to see the witch-hunts are coming to TL as well, I'm approaching it with an open mind and the OP DID present his case pretty thoroughly, but too many posts are 'he caught this drop, that's 100% concrete proof' which is BS
I've played games against a friend, just instinctively KNEW he was going to drop and repositioned and I play nowhere near the levels these guys are playing at.
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watching catz stream right now, REALLY hard to believe spades isn't maphacking after seeing some of the stuff. like, incredibly hard.
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On June 05 2012 11:59 legaton wrote: Isn't all of this a good example of a teleological argument? All actions are interpreted as posteriori as goal-oriented because everybody is looking for causality (in this case, hacking). I don't know why he moved the army, whatever the reason, he was lucky to do it as it coincidentally helped him to deal with a drop. Coincidences are suspicious? Maybe, but the setting of the Catz/Illusion tribunal show is über biased as they are selecting the moments where the "abnormal" decisions of Spades help him, but they never show when Spades decisions prove to be awful. I saw three of the replays and he actually deals with drops pretty badly more often than not. But of course, if you handpick some stuff, it is easy to create a "suspicious series of coincidences".
I don't think people understand this at all. Catz and friends are determined to prove something and are experiencing confirmation bias HARDCORE.
"What, Spades did something out of the ordinary that wasn't 100% safe and standard? CLEARLY HACKING."
I'm not even defending Spades. I have no idea if he was hacking. I do however feel that this tribunal, as you put it is about as wrong as it gets, even if it is eventually revealed that Spades was in fact hacking. I seriously hope TL takes a stand against this kind of shit.
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That siege timing was the nail in the coffin. Sieging up at that point was too perfect.
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Watching CatZ analyse... sorry Spades. Its been proven for me.
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On June 05 2012 11:58 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Catz seems pretty sure here... he better be careful though, if he is wrong then he is going to have to make some HUGE apologies
CatZ and Spades are friends. CatZ is just trolling Spades...
also,
On June 05 2012 11:58 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:49 Spades wrote: I am playing very badly. I'm watching the screen. I really wish some hacker would come and clarify how all this works so I dont get called out for some "screen lock" Don't worry, you know you didn't cheat. The way that the screen lock works, and I spent like an hour reading the technical details of that btw since this thread is so popular, it's pretty obvious you weren't using it. For one it's supposedly an option that you have to toggle each time you want to look into the fog of war. In other words you would have to be the most active and yet worst map hacker ever to turn that on every single time you looked into the fog of war. Secondly it auto toggles itself off if you start to do other stuff. So all this talk about your camera being focused on X for a long time being indicative of cheating is wrong since it's very evident that at all times you're performing other actions in that location where the camera is locked ... Otherwise the screen lock would have toggled itself off. It's designed to work that way so that it doesn't look too suspicious. Pretty shocking that people are taking a guy's career so lightly. :/
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On June 05 2012 12:02 LgNKane wrote: watching catz stream right now, REALLY hard to believe spades isn't maphacking after seeing some of the stuff. like, incredibly hard.
This. He unseiges, watches the army move through the fog of war, and reseiges without vision right as the units appear. That basically settles it for me.
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Its bad to see any player get in this position of being accused of hacking, especially with Spades history. I feel a bit remorseful for him, but if he can't learn, then there is a problem.
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On June 05 2012 12:02 LgNKane wrote: watching catz stream right now, REALLY hard to believe spades isn't maphacking after seeing some of the stuff. like, incredibly hard.
I agree. There are some things that are iffy, but a lot of it seems concrete to me.
Edit: concrete is the wrong word. I meant convincing.
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On June 05 2012 12:02 LgNKane wrote: watching catz stream right now, REALLY hard to believe spades isn't maphacking after seeing some of the stuff. like, incredibly hard. The Cloud Kingdom game with Theognis is pretty telling for me, with the opening combined with the unsiege - move two inches - resiege. Nothing concrete, really, but very silly if he were playing legit.
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Why don't we give a bunch of random replays to pros, some spades, some not, and see if they can tell the difference between "hacking" terran and not hacking terran. they can't look at hotkeys or anything to see if it's spades, and we should try to find a player with a similar playstyle.
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On June 05 2012 11:58 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Catz seems pretty sure here... he better be careful though, if he is wrong then he is going to have to make some HUGE apologies It won't matter, mob mentality is working against me. I will never been "proven" innocent. If they want to find suspicious actions they will, and all of their fans will take everything they say as fact. They keep saying i camera lock whenever i go over fog of war. And other times they say "here he is looking in fog of war" If i had camera lock how am i looking in fog of war. This makes no sense and contradicts itself. I knew no good would come of them analyzing, because anything except 100% innocence, condemns me.
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On June 05 2012 12:04 LimitSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:02 LgNKane wrote: watching catz stream right now, REALLY hard to believe spades isn't maphacking after seeing some of the stuff. like, incredibly hard. The Cloud Kingdom game with Theognis is pretty telling for me, with the opening combined with the unsiege - move two inches - resiege. Nothing concrete, really, but very silly if he were playing legit.
For someone at his level, its concrete.
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A lot of these are tiny things that could be contributed to luck, but when it constantly happens, is it luck?
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just the fact that a supposedly professional/semi pro level player goes the entire game (cloud kingdom) without a single scout or scan proves either A: spades is one of the most technically and well thought out player in the world (in that he knows his opponent's tendencies and builds so thoroughly, or B:he has map hacks that have vision over his opponents tech.
i'd go with the ladder
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i will never forgive spades for letting an opportunity like being the captain of ReIGN go to waste. Never. and then this shit comes up, after everything in his past. I'm glad honestly. No remorse. Everyone deserves a second chance. He has gotten plenty.
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On June 05 2012 12:05 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 11:58 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Catz seems pretty sure here... he better be careful though, if he is wrong then he is going to have to make some HUGE apologies It won't matter, mob mentality is working against me. I will never been "proven" innocent. If they want to find suspicious actions they will, and all of their fans will take everything they say as fact. They keep saying i camera lock whenever i go over fog of war. And other times they say "here he is looking in fog of war" If i had camera lock how am i looking in fog of war. This makes no sense and contradicts itself. I knew no good would come of them analyzing, because anything except 100% innocence, condemns me.
The amount of time it took for you to come clean about hacking in BW kinda works against you too.
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