|
On March 08 2012 12:39 Grayboosh wrote: It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first?
What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure?? If a probe is blocking, it automatically delays the hatchery substantially even if you move to build one at a 3rd. Some 3rds are particularly far away such as on shattered temple or xelnaga caverns. That is even assuming that building a 3rd is viable. If you're against a good player, they can pylon block the natural, and chase any drone moving to a 3rd, which allows denial of both the natural and the third.
The only surefire way I see to deal with blocking (if going hatch first) is pulling a bunch of drones to kill the pylon. It gives a guaranteed hatchery at the natural with a guaranteed limit of time lost before being able to build an expansion. Obviously it still costs a TON of resources to execute. With 15p 16h, you could get away with waiting for the pool to finish, but it still takes time before the pylon can be destroyed, completely screwing up the build (hatchery would be no where near it's effective timing)
Getting a pool at 11 or 12 forces the opponent to either play very carefully/safe, and/or to send another probe or 2 or a zealot to scout their opponent, which costs them quite a bit. The zerglings early on help deny scouting (especially useful if running builds like 1 base roach, roach–speedling, or baneling–speedling), and are effective scouts, being faster and having more health per mineral than 1 drone.
On March 08 2012 11:05 CreepyNA wrote: Please do a test, with this build: 9 Overlord 12 Spawning pool 16 Queen [constant inject] 18 Make 2 Extractors, 4 Zerglings, Cancel Both Extractor 19 Overlord 19 Hatchery 20 Queen [first tumor in main, then tumors in natural] 22 Overlord 28-30 Hatch (should be at 5:00) I'm mid master zerg and I been doing this build every ZvP, and my ZvP is around high masters level; Just wondering if that build is viable or if I should change to something else. As far as I can tell, it's bad. If you're getting a pool at 12, you should be doing overlord extractor trick. that means: 10/10 extractor, drone, cancel extractor From there you have the option of either: 11/10 pool and 12/18 pool (building one drone when overlord finishes to save half a larva, at the expense of a slightly slower pool [≈7secs]) There's not a big difference between the two.
From there you should gas trick a queen and 2 pair of lings at 15/18 supply (for 19/18 supply), and a hatchery at 19/18 supply, or if you know there's no probe/pylon block potential and don't care about the opponent scouting, just build a queen at 16 supply, and hatchery at 18 (optionally gas trick a pair of lings out after). or if you used a drone scout (don't think it's that effective for this build) and scouted FFE no cannon, you can go 14/18 single gas trick 6 lings (if 11 pool), or 15/18 double gas trick (if 12 pool)
So overall the only major problem to fix is just doing the gas trick instead of 9 overlord.
|
It doesn't matter if they're the same at 7:00 because they're completely different before that.
|
On March 08 2012 06:37 Grayboosh wrote: I'm confused... if 12/19 doesn't stop cheese (which I don't know if I agree with b/c I've killed a 3 pylon block with this build before)... then why are we considering 15p/16h instead of 16h/15p??? Why is the pool first necessary? What does it help you against, specifically, that a 16h would be susceptible to? Pylon blocks. Cannon rushes.
Hatching first vs toss is viable, but it depends on how good the toss is and the map. Adding that pool first doesn't actually slow down your economy all that much, but it gives you options if you're blocked. Like I mentioned earlier, if you're blocked, you can just get what you were supposed to get after the hatch first and then get the hatch. It slows down your hatch by 20 seconds, but doesn't make any difference otherwise, which is really nice since it lets you play very consistently, works on all maps no matter what the toss does.
|
11/18 is slightly behind the 15/16. You can easily hit 70 supply at 8:00 with a 15/16 but you can't do that with a 11/18 (best i can do is 66).
I wonder how protoss react to 11/18. Because if the 11/18 cause the protoss to delay his tech and/or economy, then all is good. You have between 5 and 10 drones less than with the 15/16, but the protoss push/all-in will hit later.
|
As a protoss, nothing scares me more than 14p/14g when I FFE. If I cannot get a probe scout to check ur drone count (you can easily deny me with speedlings) I get really paranoid because an all-in might be comming, and preparing for it screws up all possible teching.
How does 14p/14g into macro work? is it too bad?
|
On March 08 2012 18:30 KaiserJohan wrote: How does 14p/14g into macro work? is it too bad? 14g14p is a significant economic sacrifice early for very quick zergling speed. What are you going to do with speedlings against a walled off protoss with cannons... not much. If I was going to all-in I'd definitely not go 14g/14p, I'd get the gas later and start speed only after putting down the roach warren, so that by the time I make roaches and they get to your base, ling speed barely finishes so everything lines up nicely.
|
14p/14gas doesn't work as a macro build. If you scout gas going down that early I can't think of a reason not to expect an all in. A few extra canons (2 or 3 in good positioning) is definitely the correct response. If Z decides to macro after that set up the extra canons shouldn't hurt your economy much at all in comparison. (Unless Zerg doesn't mine from it and is just playing mindgames however, its usually safe to assume an all in.)
Back on thread though 14p/15 or 16h is definitely the way to go. Like Belial I played around with 11pool a lot in ZvP. It isn't worth it because like already said timings don't match up. IF you do open 11 and just run past the pylon block and try to get in before a canon can go down is perhaps the only reason I have found it to be better. Microing the lings vs probes to disrupt mining is viable. (Can't remember who but it happened the other day at IEM) The 3rd hatch being so much later means creep spread, Queen positioning, and spore placement are all a bit off as well though not critical. Throwing a 3rd at 6 minutes means that it'll be much harder to defend on maps where toss is doing some sort of early aggression vs the 3rd.
Its always good to test the current state of the game. However, reverting back to an old style, after 14p has been proven better isn't the answer. With the influx of FFE from Toss there isn't much of a reason to do so.
|
I think one of the main things if you see a 14/14 is to play standard. Zerg is sacrificing economy for zergling speed, you can safely ignore that. However, a 14/14 might easily lead to a roach/ling allin, now that's something to worry about... so, simply learn the timing and go for the probe scout at that time (send from base, hide out on map... some players are good enough to deny scouting completely, but you should usually be able to do it). When you see the roaches, simply add cannons and sentries, you just need to buy time. If you can't scout the zerg, you have no choice, you have to act as if it's a roach/ling allin blindly. This is what pro's do as well, so there's nothing wrong with that, that's the price for not being able to get the scouting done.
|
On March 08 2012 16:04 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 12:39 Grayboosh wrote: It has been stated that with a 15p/16h, if the toss pylon blocks your Nat, you can just take your third. You can do this with a 16h/15p as well, so why go pool first?
What does pool first specifically protect you against? Zealot Stalker pressure?? If a probe is blocking, it automatically delays the hatchery substantially even if you move to build one at a 3rd. Some 3rds are particularly far away such as on shattered temple or xelnaga caverns. That is even assuming that building a 3rd is viable. If you're against a good player, they can pylon block the natural, and chase any drone moving to a 3rd, which allows denial of both the natural and the third. The only surefire way I see to deal with blocking (if going hatch first) is pulling a bunch of drones to kill the pylon. It gives a guaranteed hatchery at the natural with a guaranteed limit of time lost before being able to build an expansion. Obviously it still costs a TON of resources to execute. With 15p 16h, you could get away with waiting for the pool to finish, but it still takes time before the pylon can be destroyed, completely screwing up the build (hatchery would be no where near it's effective timing)
Is your testing accounting for probe/pylon blocks at your nat? There's no reason to assume that this wouldn't happen a majority of the time, and there's also no reason to assume that the probe wouldn't follow your drone to the third and block that as well.
I would like to see how 12p/19h fairs against a 15p/~16h, assuming that the second hatch doesn't actually go down at 16 because you have to wait for 2 sets of lings to hatch, travel to the pylon, and destroy it. You also need to account for lost mining time from the drone who will be morphing into a hatchery, because we're assuming it stayed at the pylon to wittle it down.
Also assume that the probe followed your drone to the third and blocked that too. I don't believe it's fair to assume otherwise, just because you've played against bad toss opponents who let you get away with that.
If 15p/~16h still comes out ahead, economically, I'll be very surprised... but I will also definitely start using this build as opposed to Nestea's 12p/19h.
I would GREATLY appreciate anyone who is able to perform this testing, as would the entire Zerg swarm, I'm sure!
|
11/18 and 12/19 are the same. 11/18 is (most of the case) a 11/19 because of the pylone block.
And 11p = 12p. Nestea just delay the pool for 7s by making the drone before the pool.
I'll try to re-test the 15/16 with the help of a protoss friend ^^
|
On March 08 2012 22:36 Magus.421 wrote: 11/18 and 12/19 are the same. 11/18 is (most of the case) a 11/19 because of the pylone block.
And 11p = 12p. Nestea just delay the pool for 7s by making the drone before the pool.
I'll try to re-test the 15/16 with the help of a protoss friend ^^ That depends since you can do 3 kinds of 12 pool if I don't remember incorrectly... You can do 11 overpool but making a drone before pool, which is more or less an 11/18... or you can do double extractor trick into pool (which is just a crap opening). Or, you can do a 12 standard, which is more or less identical to a 14/16.
|
Nestea do a extractor trick => drone => drone => pool if i remember well. Can someone confirm ?
|
Nestea does extractor trick > drone, then overlord, meaning his overlord is building at 11/10 supply. Once overlord is done, he builds another drone, then pool (12 supply). Drone to 15 > overlord > queen > 2 sets of lings (19 supply), then hatch.
|
On March 08 2012 16:04 Xapti wrote:
With 15p 16h, you could get away with waiting for the pool to finish, but it still takes time before the pylon can be destroyed, completely screwing up the build (hatchery would be no where near it's effective timing).
If you go 14p 16h and they put a pylon down, all you have to do is make 4 lings when pool finishes, then overlord and double extractor trick to get the queen in time. It puts you even since the toss had to delay his own build 100 minerals and you can proceed as usual. Plus you have 4 lings to hunt down probes (sometimes if you bypass the pylon to take your third instead they cannon rush that base, especially on shakuras).
I do this everytime they put a pylon down to block and by watching said replays I don't end up behind.
|
You should always manage to get your hatch down at 16 if you go for 15 pool 16 hatch. It should not be blocked by a probe, unless the protoss feels like putting down two proxy pylons - which is fine, because it delays his build by a lot.
I think you that claim that your hatch 'will' be blocked, fail to understand the build properly.
Check this replay for an example: http://www.mediafire.com/?n3capbbj3vlc6xe
It's based on 10 drone scout, 15 pool 16 hatch, queen and 4 lings, 24 hatch at 4:20. And then just econ until 8:00 when you react based off scouting information.
Second base would be at third base location, based off a probe being ready to block your natural (which you see with your overlord).
It gives: 6:00 42 / 44 supply, 32 drones, 2 queens, third 3 quarter done. 7:00 61 / 62 supply, 2 gas done. 8:00 78 / 78 supply, 59 drones, 11 drones building (for a total of 70 before you put down spores, gas 4+, macro hatch, spines, etc), lair, roach warren and evo chamber being made. 8:30 Lair, evo chamber, roach warren, 3 queens, done. Supply and such would depend on how you respond based off your scouting information ...
Thing is, after 7:00 it would change in a real game because that's when I sacrifice two overlords. Still, you are in good shape at 7:00 with 46 drones, 7 more drones making, 1 creep tumor (about to make another), 3 queens, and lair starting in a few seconds.
I don't think you can equal 61 / 62 supply at 7:00 with 11 / 18. Or?
I would love to see how, so I can study that build if anyone can. On the assumption that 11 / 18 don't require a drone scout, but 15 / 16 does in order to confirm forge expand on maps with more than 2 spawn locations (overlord can scout in time on maps with just 2 spawn locations).
|
So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!.
|
On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran!
|
On March 09 2012 01:22 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran!
Even vs bunker rush? I'm fine with that btw, just wondering why, I guess I'm able to fight off most bunker rushes even with hatch first, so probably not an issue, but seems like it would be easier to do with pool first but I guess at the expense of econ, of course, fighting off bunker rushes with hatch first I usually lose a few drones which is econ damaging plus i'm pulling quite a few drones as well which hurts econ too.
Haven't been bunker rushed in a while but it seems like it usually comes after the hatch is down anyways, so maybe couldn't reactively do pool first anyways because I wouldn't know it's coming in time before I place the hatch?
|
On March 09 2012 01:28 Dr_Hyde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 01:22 aebriol wrote:On March 09 2012 01:19 Dr_Hyde wrote: So after reading this entire thread and the other one that belial recommended, it sounds like from an economic perspective, the higher count pool builds are better, but I've seen several different numbers on that, I've seen 14p/16h, 14p/15h, 15p/15h, and 15p/16h. It makes me also wonder how 16p/16h would do. Does anyone have any insight into which of these is stronger economically?
I've done 16h/16p for a LONG time against both toss and terran (gold level) so no matter what, pool first vs toss is going to make me a lot safer that what I have been doing, I'm just trying to figure out which one of these higher count (at least 14p) builds is the most optimal from an economic standpoint? Great thread btw, I expect my toss games plus my games against terran bunker rush to be much stronger than they used to be thanks to this thread because I will go pool first in these situations!. You should never do anything but 15 hatch vs Terran! Even vs bunker rush? I'm fine with that btw, just wondering why, I guess I'm able to fight off most bunker rushes even with hatch first, so probably not an issue, but seems like it would be easier to do with pool first but I guess at the expense of econ, of course, fighting off bunker rushes with hatch first I usually lose a few drones. You need the creep and you need to avoid him putting bunkers down from your ramp and containing you.
It's actually harder to beat bunker rushes with pool first.
With a confirmed 2 rax bunker rush, you can just pull all your drones to your natural and mine there and defend with those + lings. But if your natural isn't done yet, you really can't do that, because you would stop all mining, and he can just kite you until you die. Or force a cancel then bunker contain you.
|
In my games against toss my natural is always probe/pylon blocked, so going for a 15p/16h means that the thid needs to be taken, but doesn't this cause some significant loss in mining time?
|
|
|
|